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Or the pattern of the ejecting shells was different. In modern weapons there are a variety of methods (of varying efficiency) of getting the empty shell out of the breech.

English Assassin wrote:
I know that, and I can indeed distinctly remember, back in 1995 or whenever, tutting at the inconsistency of the marksmanship award in the Ultramarines codex being a bolt shell from Guilliman's gun, since at the time boltgun ammunition was described as caseless.

Or so I thought... not only is the ammunition now cased (having bothered to check 5th edition) but I can't actually find anything in RT or 2nd ed to explain why I though so at the time. Perhaps I'm going senile and only imagining that I'd remembered it...

Ah, the problem here is that piece of fluff was from 1995. GW has retconned nearly everything from the Rogue Trader era. It was true at one point, but it isn't anymore.

1995 was 2nd Edition, not Rogue Trader. Though the relevance of older fluff is often suspect unless it can be corroborated with modern fluff.

Throughing in my 2 cence, Is it not possible that the previlance of case or case-less ammo is dependant on the chapter, mission, and round used?

For instance, a chapter may elect to use case-less ammo because:
1) Its cheaper to produce
2) Its less prone to jams, does not stove pipe specificaly
3) Reduces cost of bolt gun production, no need for an ejection system
4) Makes the bolt gun more reliable, no ejecter = less parts that can break
5) Faster cycle rate
6) More propellent, and there for higher cycle rate and muzzle velocity

On 6 I feel I should explain why more propelent = higher cycle rate, looking at the models and pics of models, there is a gas piston above the barrel meaning it is gas operated. So more propelent = more gas to push the piston and cycle the fire arm faster.

Caseless ammo would actually be more expensive.

Autoguns (caseless firearms) are more expensive than stubbers (similar to modern non-caseless firearms), for example.

Depends on the manufacturing technquie and a number of other factor such as the availability of the metal to produce the case.

Vice_Grip wrote:Depends on the manufacturing technquie and a number of other factor such as the availability of the metal to produce the case.

In the Imperium, culture defines price as much as manufacturing costs. Boltguns aren't necessarily that much more complex weapons than some forms of autoguns and certainly not hellguns, but they're still valued more because of symbolism.

True

Melissia: I know that 'source?' thing's kind of tedious but it's important for what I'm writing: where's it say about autoguns being caseless? Cheers.

tsz52 wrote:Melissia: I know that 'source?' thing's kind of tedious but it's important for what I'm writing: where's it say about autoguns being caseless? Cheers.

It was one of the Imperial Armour books if I'm not mistaken.

seige of Varks perhaps?

Cool. Really need to get around to buying those asap.

Boltguns themselves, aside from the targeting links in Space Marine models, are probably not all that complex in terms of mechanism. What sets apart bolters as a higher end weapon is the complexity and inferred cost of their ammunition.

The "caseless" rounds for the autogun have also been referenced (or rather, they originated there) in GW studio material, such as the 1E Rogue Trader rulebook, the 2E Wargear book or the Necromunda rulebook. Here's their descriptions, in case anyone is interested:

"An auto-gun is comparable to a twentieth century automatic rifle in appearance and operation - although it uses caseless, small calibre ammunition and has a rate of fire far outweighing that ancient weapon. Its main advantage is that it has a long effective range. These weapons often find their way into the hands of human militia and are the standard arm in some less advanced cultures."

"The autogun is comparable to the twentieth century automatic rifle both in appearance and operation, though the introduction of caseless ammunition and plasteel components has increased the rate of fire and reliability.
The autogun fires a burst of high-velocity, caseless shot made from plastic, ceramics or metal. Its strong point is that it's cheap and easy to construct, making it popular amongst low-tech frontiersmen and Gretchin."

"The autogun is a rapid firing automatic weapon. Auto weapons are easy to manufacture and simple to use, and are amongst the most commonly employed weapons in the Underhive.
Autoguns are made in the factories of the hive city and traded down through the hive. Crude but effective versions are made in the Underhive workshops themselves. Ammunition, spares and repair facilities are relatively easy to find throughout the Underhive, and traders always have guns and ammunition for sale."

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Boltguns themselves, aside from the targeting links in Space Marine models, are probably not all that complex in terms of mechanism.

Actually, if you go by GW's fluff, they are often described as rather complex and hard to maintain ("require constant attention and expert maintenance"). One of the many reasons for why ordinary Guardsmen aren't entrusted with them.

Can you imagine being a left and getting smacked in the face by a bolter shell. LOL!

smokeynyc wrote:Can you imagine being a left and getting smacked in the face by a bolter shell. LOL!

I'm sorry, what? What is "A Left?"
Anyway, your head would explode. That's what a bolter shell does.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I'm sorry, what? What is "A Left?"
Anyway, your head would explode. That's what a bolter shell does.

He's referring to a left-handed person. A potential issue for "lefties" in the military is that spent shells tend to be ejected right in front of their face. As you can imagine, this may hurt.

It's the reason for why some few weapons now come with ejection ports on both sides of the gun, adaptable to the individual user.

Lynata wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I'm sorry, what? What is "A Left?"
Anyway, your head would explode. That's what a bolter shell does.

He's referring to a left-handed person. A potential issue for "lefties" in the military is that spent shells tend to be ejected right in front of their face. As you can imagine, this may hurt.

It's the reason for why some few weapons now come with ejection ports on both sides of the gun, adaptable to the individual user.

Aha, I see!
My experience with guns in the real world is limited at best, hence my confusion.
For a moment, I thought he was talking about shooting Communists.

Caseless autoweapons show up in various other sources too. Atlas Infernal mentions Cadians of some era having caseless autoguns. Ian Watson's Inquisition war mentions caseless autoweapons as well, and Abnett's novels (particularily the ravenor ones) mention caseless autoweapons. I'm pretty sure there were a few others, but there are also plenty of examples of cased autoweapons as well. It's not really that big an issue, since there's advantages and drawbacks to both kinds of guns.

Bolters are/were supposed to be caseless in the sense they fired miniature, self propelled rockets. You don't really need a casing for that (a sabot maybe). But that was also of the same idea of 'bolters have little recoil' and that's mutated over time (both in terms of bolters ejecting casings and having recoil.) Nowadays I figure they are designed to fire both caesd and caseless (rocket propelled) ammo in the same wy they have diffrent kinds of payloads. but bolters are a pain in the butt to make sense of - not unlike chainswords or Titans (unless you opt for 'it just looks cool' - that's always a nice simple if out of universe answer.)

Yes I meant lefty, it was a typo >.<. I always viewed a bolter as something similar to a 25mm cannon (like a bushmaster on an APC).
On another note I thought the reason bolters are not as common amongst regular humans is due to the size and weight. You have to a be either a very strong human or wearing power armor to hold one, as it is comparable to a machine gun in terms of size and weight (remember space marines are seven foot tall super-humans, and sisters wear power armor).

Bolters rescaled in size for human hands aren't actually as heavy as you'd think. The Dark Heresy book lists a 'boltgun' as weighing in at 7kg, which is 4kg lighter than the British L7A2 General Purpose Machine Gun. I would assume this is for a Godwyn-Deaz boltgun, similar to the one used by the Sisters of Battle.

The reason boltguns are not common in the Imperium is that outside of the Inquisition, Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, bolters are really, really hard to get hold of - ammunition is even harder to get. They're complicated and time consuming to maintain and have to be cleaned regularly. When you're on the battlefield you're better off with the simplicity of a las weapon, if you're a human. Ridiculously easy to maintain, ammunition is hardly ever a problem, not to mention they are hard hitting and accurate.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Bolters rescaled in size for human hands aren't actually as heavy as you'd think. The Dark Heresy book lists a 'boltgun' as weighing in at 7kg, which is 4kg lighter than the British L7A2 General Purpose Machine Gun. I would assume this is for a Godwyn-Deaz boltgun, similar to the one used by the Sisters of Battle.

The reason boltguns are not common in the Imperium is that outside of the Inquisition, Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, bolters are really, really hard to get hold of - ammunition is even harder to get. They're complicated and time consuming to maintain and have to be cleaned regularly. When you're on the battlefield you're better off with the simplicity of a las weapon, if you're a human. Ridiculously easy to maintain, ammunition is hardly ever a problem, not to mention they are hard hitting and accurate.

This, pretty much.
In fact, it's given that boltguns are so costly to maintain that, outside of the SM and Battle Sisters, the Imperium just doesn't see the practicality of making them a mass-used weapon, as it's too costly in terms of time to train a Guardsman to fire one, when they can just be given a lasgun which any idiot can use.
Why waste that money on a decent weapon when your common footsoldier's value isn't in quality but quantity?

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Bolters rescaled in size for human hands aren't actually as heavy as you'd think. The Dark Heresy book lists a 'boltgun' as weighing in at 7kg, which is 4kg lighter than the British L7A2 General Purpose Machine Gun. I would assume this is for a Godwyn-Deaz boltgun, similar to the one used by the Sisters of Battle.

According to DH, the Godwyn De'az boltgun weighs 6 kg, actually, but keep in mind that Blood of Martyrs violates the lore in several areas in regards to Sororitas equipment so it's not necessarily the best source.

Ribon Fox wrote:Taken from the 3rd edition big rulz book.

Throne, I love that book.

Worth every penny of the 2.50 I payed for it.

Since we are on the topic of bolters, what fire modes do they have? Are they burst, semi or full auto?
I managed to get a copy of chaos gate, and I was suprised to see that they only fired 1 shot at a time with no sustained fire ability. Is this accurate?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Since we are on the topic of bolters, what fire modes do they have? Are they burst, semi or full auto?
I managed to get a copy of chaos gate, and I was suprised to see that they only fired 1 shot at a time with no sustained fire ability. Is this accurate?

As I recall, no. They can fire in a whole bunch of different modes, if the BL stuff and Codex descriptions are anything to go by.

Bolters rescaled in size for human hands aren't actually as heavy as you'd think. The Dark Heresy book lists a 'boltgun' as weighing in at 7kg, which is 4kg lighter than the British L7A2 General Purpose Machine Gun. I would assume this is for a Godwyn-Deaz boltgun, similar to the one used by the Sisters of Battle.

The reason boltguns are not common in the Imperium is that outside of the Inquisition, Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, bolters are really, really hard to get hold of - ammunition is even harder to get. They're complicated and time consuming to maintain and have to be cleaned regularly. When you're on the battlefield you're better off with the simplicity of a las weapon, if you're a human. Ridiculously easy to maintain, ammunition is hardly ever a problem, not to mention they are hard hitting and accurate.

Bolters are/were supposed to be caseless in the sense they fired miniature, self propelled rockets. You don't really need a casing for that (a sabot maybe). But that was also of the same idea of 'bolters have little recoil' and that's mutated over time (both in terms of bolters ejecting casings and having recoil.) Nowadays I figure they are designed to fire both caesd and caseless (rocket propelled) ammo in the same wy they have diffrent kinds of payloads. but bolters are a pain in the butt to make sense of - not unlike chainswords or Titans (unless you opt for 'it just looks cool' - that's always a nice simple if out of universe answer.)

Looking at the action on the models an pictures, you can say with out a doubt the bolt gun is gas operated, like the AK-47. Now ifyou recall, the AK-47 is extremely resiliant, reliable, and has a good cycle rate. Now how does this apply to the bolt gun?

Simple, with the lack of recoil, gas operation would be the best way to make a working bolt gun. This means that it will share many traits with the AK-47, mainly its reliablity. Now on that note, gas operated fire arms are notoriusly more complex than say a recoil operated fire arm, but not by so much to mean only people trained in its specific operation can operate them. In fact, the Imperial Guard does issue bolt fire arms to soldiers deamed worthy. Now in a war of atrition, you would not have time to maintian your rifle, now the Imperial Guard is noted for such actions, proof: most pictures you see of gaurdsmen are taken in trenches. So, why would the gaurd give their best soldiers rifles that will not work, jam, and have heavy ammunition, which means its harder to carry?

Based on the arguement posed above, I believe the statement about the bolt gun being unreliable, and hard to maintain.

Generally bolters will fire in single-shot or semi-automatic (burst fire) of 2-4 rounds. At least this is from the Inquisitor rulebook which covers MkII-MkIV bolters.

Connor MacLeod wrote:but bolters are a pain in the butt to make sense of

Maybe I'm missing a problem but I find that they're the least butt-pain weapon in 40k. As in the USMC could have something that looks and acts like a Bolter within 10-20 years of whenever they want one (though they'd probably get a better design). Just eliminate the impossible and unnecessary claims and depictions and run with the sensible (eg Clint Langley's glorious illustrations which have the back part of the magazine and rounds disappear when they meet the trigger guard [and the depleted deuterium] are impossible, caseless ammo is unnecessary).

19mm armour piercing high explosive cannon projectile, with rocket propulsion and small case with initial push and cycling charge. No probs.

Magazine too far forward for conventional auto-loader feed system and layout; so its feed system is more like that found in an old MG [I forget which one], recently adapted to a handgun design [link is a short vid that might take a few seconds to load; if it doesn't work there's plenty of Boberg info to be Googled]:-

http://www.downloadvideo.net/video/-TSva89jbNM/Boberg_XR9_Extended.html

Job done. That layout fits nicely within a Bolter shape and layout and may well be more expensive and temperamental (GW studio's own word) than a normal auto-loader feed since there's extra complexity and points of failure.

There's your Bolter.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Since we are on the topic of bolters, what fire modes do they have? Are they burst, semi or full auto?
I managed to get a copy of chaos gate, and I was suprised to see that they only fired 1 shot at a time with no sustained fire ability. Is this accurate?

It is as accurate as you want it to be. 40k does not have a "canon" policy, meaning that anyone writing a novel, an RPG or a computer game is free to do what he wants concerning such details. It is up to the individual consumer to pick an interpretation he prefers (or come up with one of his own).

"Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
- Gav Thorpe

tsz52 wrote:19mm armour piercing high explosive cannon projectile, with rocket propulsion and small case with initial push and cycling charge. No probs.

CQB AA-12 with HEAP rounds - all that's missing now is the miniature rocket motor and the electric trigger, and maybe remove the stock while you're at it. We're getting there...