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Generally, I can subscribe to that.

Though most cost-effective would, imho, probably be the Cadians, given their martial culture and high level of training even before joining the Guard. It's an entire world churning out regiments, with their Kasrkin said to be as good as the "real" Storm Troopers. With SoB and Guard STs, their numbers are way too low, and I'm not sure if they could hold their quality standards if you just start cranking up recruitment. Also, Sisters at least "consume" much the same equipment, but Astartes are still tougher - I for one find it hard to determine whether the genetic enhancements are "worth their money" or an awesome yet inefficient bonus.

But one thing where the Space Marines clearly do win out in the efficiency department is the concentration of infantry firepower in as small an area as possible. When there's not much room to deploy (or you really want to surprise the enemy with drop pods or teleporters), there's no infantry unit that can compare to the Astartes. They may be expensive, but they're the best you could bring.

In essence, 40k has special forces for the same reasons that special forces exist in the real world. Only that in 40k, there are much stronger differences in toughness and firepower between their various types - because in the 41st Millennium, some enemies just need you to deploy the nastiest, biggest, strongest beast you have in your arsenal.

You could still assault with pure numbers, but at some point it just gets more efficient at sending a squad or company of Marines. Essentially, what AtariAssassin wrote. It all depends on the circumstances, and every army has a reason for why they're there.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:This is possibly the most disjointed thought process in history. Not even sure how you arrived at this conclusion.

Lemme help you out here, then. I'll even use your reasoning.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The cost to develop a single Space Marine is probably several million times higher than the cost to basically train and equip an Imperial Guardsman. But, safe to say, and to answer your question, yes, Space Marines are more expensive to create, and no, the point values that represent their effectiveness on the battlefield has no reflection on their back end production cost.

Yup. That's what I was attempting to say before I drank a quart of paint thinner. In a nutshell.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Obviously you'd rather throw a thousand expendable Guardsmen into a frontal assault at a heavily defended target than waste a hundred Space Marines on the same task, but that's because the numbers of the Guardsmen's numbers would provide them a weight of fire. But, at the same time, you'd sooner throw a hundred Space Marines into an drop assault on a high value target than try and use a thousand man airborne Guard battalion.

Right, ten to one ratio, makes sense.

Except you said that a single Space Marine is "probably several million times higher than the cost to [train and equip] an Imperial Guardsman."

If you had the choice between a hundred million airborne Imperial Guardsmen or a hundred Space Marines in order to assault a high value target, with which option would you err?

If you wanted to convince me that a unit of Space Marines would be a better option than the Guardsmen, you would have to convince me of the ineffectiveness of numbers in a given context, such that the cost effectiveness ratio swung in favor of the Marines, which would require some contrivance considering the (probably hyperbolic) numbers you've given me, albeit not being entirely outside of the realm of possibility.

Something that should be kept in mind for this little calculation is that there is the little problem of transportation.

Certainly it is much easier to grab a peasant off his farm, hand him a benchpressed lasgun and tell him he's in the Guard now ... compared to death trials on a Feral World, followed by extensive genetical alteration, surgery and psycho-conditioning and more than a decade of training, complemented by some of the best battlegear the Imperium has to offer.

However, actually moving a force from one planet to another, I daresay it's much easier to do for a single company of Marines than a dozen regiments of Imperial Guard. And perhaps more importantly, much faster, too.

Lynata wrote:Something that should be kept in mind for this little calculation is that there is the little problem of transportation.

Certainly it is much easier to grab a peasant off his farm, hand him a benchpressed lasgun and tell him he's in the Guard now ... compared to death trials on a Feral World, followed by extensive genetical alteration, surgery and psycho-conditioning and more than a decade of training, complemented by some of the best battlegear the Imperium has to offer.

However, actually moving a force from one planet to another, I daresay it's much easier to do for a single company of Marines than a dozen regiments of Imperial Guard. And perhaps more importantly, much faster, too.

It's an interesting thought and probably worth exploring.

There is the problem of locality, however. You can raise an IG regiment presumably from any local Imperial system, but what if, like during the Horus Heresy, a Space Marine regiment is on the other end of the galaxy?

I think it's fair, in any case, to say that transportation of fewer soldiers, albeit of somewhat more considerable weight and girth, would be much less logistically-intensive.

Another thing I was wondering about is the rate at which Space Marines could be replaced. How many do they have in the pipe at any given time?

TedNugent wrote:Another thing I was wondering about is the rate at which Space Marines could be replaced. How many do they have in the pipe at any given time?

Aspirants can probably be found rather quickly if they're in a pinch, all depending on how many worlds the Chapter is recruiting from. In the end, all they need to do is rounding up the biggest and baddest youths they can get and then see who survives implantation. Of course it'll still take some time until they are ready to become Scouts. Full Marine losses, on the other hand, would be replaced from the Scout Company. I imagine that a Chapter could promote its Scouts prematurely if they're really short on numbers, though the Chapter Master would probably loathe doing so.

As for the travel distance, that's a very good point. I could only counter this by the Guard regiment also having to take on arms and munitions on various other worlds until the newly recruited regiment is actually combat ready. Few planets produce everything in accordance to Munitorum standards, so a new regiment doesn't just fly from A to B but makes lots of detours tithing anything the regiment may need from nearby worlds.

On the other hand, Marine Chapters simply "exist" and can go the direct route as soon as they receive their orders. Now, it would still take several months to get from the other end of the galaxy to the target zone - but this would apply to far-off Guard regiments just as well, so if you're only counting regiments raised in the vicinity of the crisis zone, it stands to reason that there is a Marine Chapter somewhat closer as well.

In fact ... *rustles*

"The first forces able to respond to a distress signal are usually spacecraft of the nearest fleet. Imperial warships can drive any attacking craft or support friendly ground forces. However, ships can do little to aid desperate ground forces. If the distress signal reaches a nearby Space Marine Chapter fortress, a force of Space Marines can be sent as quickly as naval vessels. All Space Marine Chapters have their own fleets consisting of some of the fastest ships in the Imperium. Often, a small force of Space Marines is enough to turn back an alien invasion, so long as there are some other human forces left to support them. However, the Space Marine Chapters are not large: an entire Chapter may be able to field only a thousand warriors or thereabouts. Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat."
- 2E Guard 'dex

"The logistics involved in transporting the collosal armies of the Imperial Guard are daunting; indeed, even getting the sprawling bulk of the Imperial Guard to a warzone is a victory in itself. Whilst the forces are unwieldy and slow to react, when such immense armies are deployed to engage the enemy, the end result is inevitable. With such vast resources of manpower, tanks and munitions, they are akin to a mighty sledgehammer that smashes its foes apart."
- 5E Guard 'dex

So, basically you've got small and elite fast response teams versus a brutal behemoth that is slow but relentless. Scalpel and Hammer. Or perhaps more appropriately, a thrown knife and a two-handed warhammer... 40k.

Lynata wrote:

"The first forces able to respond to a distress signal are usually spacecraft of the nearest fleet. Imperial warships can drive any attacking craft or support friendly ground forces. However, ships can do little to aid desperate ground forces. If the distress signal reaches a nearby Space Marine Chapter fortress, a force of Space Marines can be sent as quickly as naval vessels. All Space Marine Chapters have their own fleets consisting of some of the fastest ships in the Imperium. Often, a small force of Space Marines is enough to turn back an alien invasion, so long as there are some other human forces left to support them. However, the Space Marine Chapters are not large: an entire Chapter may be able to field only a thousand warriors or thereabouts. Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat."
- 2E Guard 'dex

"The logistics involved in transporting the collosal armies of the Imperial Guard are daunting; indeed, even getting the sprawling bulk of the Imperial Guard to a warzone is a victory in itself. Whilst the forces are unwieldy and slow to react, when such immense armies are deployed to engage the enemy, the end result is inevitable. With such vast resources of manpower, tanks and munitions, they are akin to a mighty sledgehammer that smashes its foes apart."
- 5E Guard 'dex

So, basically you've got small and elite fast response teams versus a brutal behemoth that is slow but relentless. Scalpel and Hammer. Or perhaps more appropriately, a thrown knife and a two-handed warhammer... 40k.

Wow, now that is intense, and that completely substantiates your point. That would also make it much more complicated to make a strict cost-effectiveness tally because a legion of IG isn't much good if they can't be deployed in time for the conflict.

Well done scabbing up those quotes, and thank you.

My pleasure! I love digging in the ol' fluff.

The 2E Guard Codex goes into even more detail explaining how they go into orbit here and there, take on vehicles constructed on forgeworld B, and fuel for them on planet C, then park some time at some staging area whilst transports from other planets arrive so they can form a neat convoy protected by Navy warships, etc...
For anyone who likes reading that sort of stuff, I can only recommend trying to get a look at these books - they're true gems, and the internet is a blessing.

Of course, the Codices - just like my point/opinion as a whole - are just one interpretation of the setting (or in case of retconned GW fluff even several). As such, agreement isn't necessary - but if you think that everything makes sense that way, all the better!

And yes, a strict tally would get real complicated. Then again, maybe this vagueness was quite intended by the authors!

Was reading Deliverance Lost last night and it mentions that Corax pre the Istvaan massacre had 75000 troops at his disposal, afterwards he had a mere 3k.

Assuming that was not his entire Chapter (which it wasnt since there were troops back on the home world) could we say there might have been about 80000 total?

Further more, assuming each Legion at that time had a similar figure we get 18x80000 for a total of 1,440,000.

Currently its accpepted there about 1 million (Loyal) in total.

Would it be fair to assume 440,000 in the Traitor Legions meaning no real change in numbers since the Heresy?

IIRC Corax's legion and the other loyalists at Istvann suffered heavy casualties but the other loyalists had different circumstances. the ultramarines came out of the heresy almost unscathed while half the dark angels went traitor, the dark angel civil battles would have cost further casualties.
The same applies to the traitors, those attacking terra would have suffer horible casualties while those at istavaan were on the winning side of that battle.
I'm just saying that there really isn't a quick and easy formula to use in this case.