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I was wondering about the amount of space marines in various chapters, and how many there are total. The basic organization says that theres 1000 marines in a chapter, so is that at full strength? Do they ever exceed that limit? Also, scouts generally get their own company, but does that mean that all of the neophytes and recruits are included in the 100 members of that company?

There are roughly (emphasize roughly) 1,000 Space Marine chapters, each with roughly (emphasize roughly) 1,000 Marines in them, meaning there are roughly (emphasize roughly) 1 million Space Marines active total.

Certain non-Codex Chapters (Black Templars) do exceeed 1,000.

And no, only Scouts are in the Scout company. Not recruits or neophytes.

There are supposedly around 1,000 Chapters in the galaxy, but that number is an approximation and some Chapters have fewer or more Marines than others.

It varies widely from Chapter to Chapter, the Black Templars are noted as maintaining over 3,000 active members; most Chapters that adhere closely to the Codex Astartes maintain approximately 1,000 Marines and Scouts at full strength, though command staff, tank crews, starship captains, and Dreadnaughts are not included in those numbers.

In most Chapters all recruits who are worthy of taking part in combat are part of the X Company, yes. One Chapter (I forget the name, possibly the Eviscerators) are noted as maintaining an extra Scout Company because their training/initiation rituals have such high casualty rates, but most Chapters simply maintain the 100 neophytes. They do have recruits that haven't proven themselves worthy of entering the Scout Company, though.

AnomanderRake wrote:There are supposedly around 1,000 Chapters in the galaxy, but that number is an approximation and some Chapters have fewer or more Marines than others.

It varies widely from Chapter to Chapter, the Black Templars are noted as maintaining over 3,000 active members; most Chapters that adhere closely to the Codex Astartes maintain approximately 1,000 Marines and Scouts at full strength, though command staff, tank crews, starship captains, and Dreadnaughts are not included in those numbers.

In most Chapters all recruits who are worthy of taking part in combat are part of the X Company, yes. One Chapter (I forget the name, possibly the Eviscerators) are noted as maintaining an extra Scout Company because their training/initiation rituals have such high casualty rates, but most Chapters simply maintain the 100 neophytes. They do have recruits that haven't proven themselves worthy of entering the Scout Company, though.

Thanks for this, I was wondering about the auxiliary forces. So then the approximate 1000 marines are the physical fighting force? Also, since the Ultramarines are so into the Codex Astartes, does that mean that they have only 1000 marines, even though theyre one of the better funded and renown chapters in the fluff?

The Exorcists are the ones with three scout companies and yes, the smurfs only have about 1k marines.

IIRC from other discussions about the exact same thing it ranges between 1000-1500, 1000 warriors and 500 for the armory and whatnot

I psoted a similar question last year:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/374501.page

And the conclusion was: Running total number of Ultramarines: 1176

Brother Coa wrote:
All right, I have done a little counting with Blood Andgels army as they are "the first legion to adopt codex astartes and to follow it accordingly." Here is total summary:

Tactical Squads - 44x5, x10 = 220, 440
Assault Squads - 18x5, x10 = 90, 180
Devastators - 18x5, x10 = 90, 180
Scouts - 10x5, x10 = 50+56 Unassinged Neophytes = 106 total, 156
Veterans - 101
Techmarines - 35
Chaplans - 13
Sanguinary priest - 21
Sanguinary Guards - 29

Total = 705 ( with 5 marines per squad )

With 10 per squad = 1155 ( with 10 marines per squad )

Predators - 20+18 Ball Predators = 38 total
Vindicators - 5
Whirlwind - 7
Land Raiders - 43
Drednoughts - 21+10 Furioso = 31 total

So that's 1155 marines if each tactical, assault and devastator squad have 10 marines. In addition to all of this, every company or strike force have 1 squad of Death Company with them. That makes 14 more squads of Death Company to this number...

So the Blood Angels have a little more than 1200 marines. I have also done by number x5 per squad, but the codex states it should be 10 per squad, aldo this number is not stable because of the losses.

And this is the chapter that follow codex astartes accordingly.

Lobukia wrote:
Let's look at the Space Marine Codex?

1st Company = 97 marines, + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (so 106-111)
2nd Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (113 as per Fall of Damnos)
3rd Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 2 Dreads (108-113)
4th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 4 Dreads (110-115)
5th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 1 Dread (107-112)
6th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 4 Dreads (110-115)
7th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 3 Dreads (109-114)
8th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad (105-110)
9th Company = 100 marines + Command Squad + 7 Dreads (112-117)
10th Company = ? No set size ?

Chapter Command = 29 + 1 Chaplain per Company (or just Battle Company?) (35-40)
Fleet Command = min of 1 SM per vessel (54+)
Apothecarion = 13
Librarius = 28
Armoury = not sure if rank marines drive these or they are assigned personnel (28-136)

So that's a minimum of 1138, max of 1291 (neither number includes scouts or any additional fleet personnel) for the Ultramarines

And last year I learned that pilots of Thunderhawks, Land Raiders, Predator,Rhinos etc... are also Space Marines. That 10'th company can have as many Scouts as they want etc...
But being that large number of Chapters are under 1000 Marines in strenght their number stays 1.000.000 in total.

third ed SM company had a chart listing the precise disposition of the entire chapter pre-behemoth. IIRC, only one company was at full strength. the rest averaged around 92 marines, and the third had taken "significant" casualties and had 75.

Also, it listed the numbers involved in the librarium, chaplaincy, apothecarion, fleet and armoury (i think the armoury had something like 30 techmarines of various ranks). I'll try to dig it up.

Brother Coa, you forgot command squads which vary in strength (see Fall of Damnos, Sicarius has 9 men including apothecary in his command squad).

I counted Blood Angels because they have exact number in their codex. On page 9 you have composition of Blood Angels Chapter in 999.M41, with the total numbers of all Marines.

Sicarius is from Ultramarines.

I could of sworn I've read in the C:SM that scouts aren't counted as part of the 1000 space marines in each chapter, which is why a chapter can maintain as many scouts as they desire.

Ah thanks for all the info guys, I tried a search but It said error so I made a topic. Sorry if this has all been covered before.

Wardragoon wrote:IIRC from other discussions about the exact same thing it ranges between 1000-1500, 1000 warriors and 500 for the armory and whatnot

False. The "armoury" does not have any extra marines. Vehicle drivers are taken from the reserve companies.

Melissia wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:IIRC from other discussions about the exact same thing it ranges between 1000-1500, 1000 warriors and 500 for the armory and whatnot

False. The "armoury" does not have any extra marines. Vehicle drivers are taken from the reserve companies.

No.

Drivers aren't located in actual fluff anywhere in the organization of the chapter.
The armory however, has additional personal as it provides the technical staff ( techmarines ) and any 'battle tank' crews .

AtariAssasin wrote:Thanks for this, I was wondering about the auxiliary forces. So then the approximate 1000 marines are the physical fighting force? Also, since the Ultramarines are so into the Codex Astartes, does that mean that they have only 1000 marines, even though theyre one of the better funded and renown chapters in the fluff?

The cap of 1000 line Battle Brothers is a voluntary thing, stemming from the guidelines and regulations of the Codex Astartes. It's rather reasonable to expect that the Ultramarines could easily and relatively quickly swell to Legion size if they so chose given the size of their recruiting pool. However, they do not by choice and adherence to the dictates of the Codex Astartes.

Think of it this way: Chapters are on the "Honor System" to stay at roughly 1000, since there is no effective governing body that can regulate them. However, being caught with a significant excess can have consequences.

As far as the Armory goes, yes it has its own Marines who are provided as Tank Crews. From the Force Listing for the entire Ultramarines Chapter in Codex: Space Marines 3rd Edition: "Note that vehicles (not bikes) and spacecraft include complete crew complements" So yes, the Armory provides Marines for vehicles and spacecraft. The math has been done and it takes a little more than 400 Marines to crew the Ultramarines' list vehicle complement. There's just no way that the Ultramarines strip all four of their Reserve Companies to remain at 100% operational ability (since that would then theoretically drop them to around 71% fighting strength at all times).

Scouts are, on the other hand, part of the 1000. Ten Companies x 100 Marines each. The reason it is "around 1000" is that the Scout Company will fluctuate in size depending on the casualties sustained by the Battle and Reserve companies, and the rate of new recruitment. So the Scout Company could very well be at 140 Scouts in a time when the Chapter was recruiting faster than it was taking casualties (however I imagine the Chapter has formulas worked out to prevent any significant gluts), or it could be much lower than 100 if they had to pull a large number of Scouts into the Reserve Companies to replace combat losses in either the Reserve or Battle Companies.

Melissia wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:IIRC from other discussions about the exact same thing it ranges between 1000-1500, 1000 warriors and 500 for the armory and whatnot

False. The "armoury" does not have any extra marines. Vehicle drivers are taken from the reserve companies.

Segeant Chronus would like a quiet word with you.

Out of curiosity, does a dreadnaught count towards this number of SM? They do have a Sm in them, after all.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Out of curiosity, does a dreadnaught count towards this number of SM? They do have a Sm in them, after all.

Depends if just companies count or everything they have.
Dreads, specialists and officers are already moving the size above the 1k mark. Plus dreads are attached to their former company, but there seems no given number of dreads or squadron size. A battle company got 10 x 10 marines without Dreads.
So chapters would count their dreads as vehicles and thus not limited by codex organization since GW didn't list the command-squads ( when they were 10 marines strong ) and the specialists in this old pic of the whole Ultramarines ( C: SM 3rd ) had more than 1k marines even without counting the scouts and / or crews. Seems there are "free" slots who don't count towards a "limit".

1hadhq wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Out of curiosity, does a dreadnaught count towards this number of SM? They do have a Sm in them, after all.

Depends if just companies count or everything they have.
Dreads, specialists and officers are already moving the size above the 1k mark. Plus dreads are attached to their former company, but there seems no given number of dreads or squadron size. A battle company got 10 x 10 marines without Dreads.
So chapters would count their dreads as vehicles and thus not limited by codex organization since GW didn't list the command-squads ( when they were 10 marines strong ) and the specialists in this old pic of the whole Ultramarines ( C: SM 3rd ) had more than 1k marines even without counting the scouts and / or crews. Seems there are "free" slots who don't count towards a "limit".

Aw, wouldn't it hurt dreadnought SM's feelings, being counted as a vehicle?

The senex antiquii ?
Iron Hands ones would love it.
The others? Make sure they sleep....I've heard someone was 'accidently' hit by an advancing dread last week.

I don't understand why, if there are ~ a million Space Marines, why they would only cost roughly 16-25 points on average, or roughly 4-6 times the cost of an Imperial Conscript. If that was the case, the cost of procurement of a single Space Marine would be many, many times higher than the cost of an Imperial Guardsman, which according to the fluff number in the billions to trillions of soldiers. Quote, "billions of regiments." If the ratio of numbers to cost held, it would follow that there were only 5 million Imperial Conscripts, which is obviously absurd. Unless the cost of procurement of a Space Marine is less than the cost of procurement for a Conscript, which, being the nature of a Conscript is doubly absurd.

In short, the cost of a Space Marine in the codex doesn't appear to make sense with the proposed numbers of Space Marines.

TedNugent wrote:I don't understand why, if there are ~ a million Space Marines, why they would only cost roughly 16-25 points on average, or roughly 4-6 times the cost of an Imperial Conscript. If that was the case, the cost of procurement of a single Space Marine would be many, many times higher than the cost of an Imperial Guardsman, which according to the fluff number in the billions to trillions of soldiers. Quote, "billions of regiments." If the ratio of numbers to cost held, it would follow that there were only 5 million Imperial Conscripts, which is obviously absurd. Unless the cost of procurement of a Space Marine is less than the cost of procurement for a Conscript, which, being the nature of a Conscript is doubly absurd.

In short, the cost of a Space Marine in the codex doesn't appear to make sense with the proposed numbers of Space Marines.

I say again FLUFF is SEPARATE to the GAME. Never try to apply "game stats" to 40k fluff. And yes there are about 1000 "line marines" in a standard codex chapter, including the armoury, librarium ect its closer to 1500 marines.

vodo40k wrote:

TedNugent wrote:I don't understand why, if there are ~ a million Space Marines, why they would only cost roughly 16-25 points on average, or roughly 4-6 times the cost of an Imperial Conscript. If that was the case, the cost of procurement of a single Space Marine would be many, many times higher than the cost of an Imperial Guardsman, which according to the fluff number in the billions to trillions of soldiers. Quote, "billions of regiments." If the ratio of numbers to cost held, it would follow that there were only 5 million Imperial Conscripts, which is obviously absurd. Unless the cost of procurement of a Space Marine is less than the cost of procurement for a Conscript, which, being the nature of a Conscript is doubly absurd.

In short, the cost of a Space Marine in the codex doesn't appear to make sense with the proposed numbers of Space Marines.

I say again FLUFF is SEPARATE to the GAME. Never try to apply "game stats" to 40k fluff. And yes there are about 1000 "line marines" in a standard codex chapter, including the armoury, librarium ect its closer to 1500 marines.

I guess that would explain Grey Knights. Particularly when it says that Purifiers have a typical grand-total of 40 men.

lol. Whatever.

TedNugent wrote:I don't understand why, if there are ~ a million Space Marines, why they would only cost roughly 16-25 points on average, or roughly 4-6 times the cost of an Imperial Conscript.

Why not?

Cost, numbers and 1-on-1 combat power have little to do with each other. Not even in real life.

(not to mention that TT point cost should not be mistaken for the cost in resources, including time, it takes the Imperium to train a Marine)

TedNugent wrote:In short, the cost of a Space Marine in the codex doesn't appear to make sense with the proposed numbers of Space Marines.

Actually, I think it fits to their tactical and strategic value. Space Marines are, in my opinion, not as irreplacable as many others will probably believe them to be. They can still be killed by lasguns, and any problem that can be handled by the few Astartes or SoB can just as well be solved by throwing enough IG bodies at it. What was it that Dorn said? A Marine is worth 10 normal soldiers? And that's coming from a Primarch.

Lynata wrote:

TedNugent wrote:I don't understand why, if there are ~ a million Space Marines, why they would only cost roughly 16-25 points on average, or roughly 4-6 times the cost of an Imperial Conscript.

Why not?

Cost, numbers and 1-on-1 combat power have little to do with each other. Not even in real life.

(not to mention that TT point cost should not be mistaken for the cost in resources, including time, it takes the Imperium to train a Marine)

Huh?
So if I spend $20 on a potato gun versus $700 on a .357 Mag, the cost has nothing to do with "combat power?"

Or if I spend 20 years genetically augmenting a supersoldier and millions of dollars outfitting him in state of the art power armor and training? Even in the tabletop game, cost is designed to reflect combat power, so I don't see where you're going with that. A marine costs 16-20 points and sees a proportionate increase in abilities over a standard Imperial Conscript at 5 points.

At any rate, here's a real life example of low cost bearing out a combat advantage due to the ease of reinforcement. World War 2, Eastern Front, T-34. Low cost led to high production numbers, high production numbers led to ease of procurement, ease of procurement meant that the opportunity cost of requisitioning one was comparatively low. I understand this is a tangential argument, but I feel the need to correct you there.

Lynata wrote:

In short, the cost of a Space Marine in the codex doesn't appear to make sense with the proposed numbers of Space Marines.

Actually, I think it fits to their tactical and strategic value. Space Marines are, in my opinion, not as irreplacable as many others will probably believe them to be. They can still be killed by lasguns, and any problem that can be handled by the few Astartes or SoB can just as well be solved by throwing enough IG bodies at it. What was it that Dorn said? A Marine is worth 10 normal soldiers? And that's coming from a Primarch.

All I'm saying is that a cost-a-million-dollar-to-be-trained Navy SEAL can still be killed by a earns-ten-bucks-a-week child soldier wielding an AK.

You end up with advantages, but they tend to be circumstancial. As are those of the Space Marines, which is why they are employed as shock troops and not line infantry.

With regards to cost/numbers, militia and terrorist groups in the middle east still use WW2 weaponry from their war with Russia. That said, if you give enough people bolt action rifles they're still going to kill some expensively outfitted soldiers. I'm not saying that technology and training doesn't factor in, but the weight of numbers has been large factor in military conquest since the dawn of war [pun, lulz].

TedNugent wrote:I don't understand why, if there are ~ a million Space Marines, why they would only cost roughly 16-25 points on average, or roughly 4-6 times the cost of an Imperial Conscript. If that was the case, the cost of procurement of a single Space Marine would be many, many times higher than the cost of an Imperial Guardsman, which according to the fluff number in the billions to trillions of soldiers. Quote, "billions of regiments." If the ratio of numbers to cost held, it would follow that there were only 5 million Imperial Conscripts, which is obviously absurd. Unless the cost of procurement of a Space Marine is less than the cost of procurement for a Conscript, which, being the nature of a Conscript is doubly absurd.

In short, the cost of a Space Marine in the codex doesn't appear to make sense with the proposed numbers of Space Marines.

This is possibly the most disjointed thought process in history. Not even sure how you arrived at this conclusion.

However, without going into some kind of exhaustive lecture on how production capabilities, developmental costs, and conscription, let's think about this for just a second.

A Spess Mahreen has to be screened, hand picked, and maintained for approximate 10-15 years before he becomes a viable combat soldier. This is, at the near complete cost to the Imperium/Chapter (henceforth, known as the State), incredibly resource intensive alone. His body is heavily modified, additionally requiring drug therapies and specially designed nutritional supplements. He is then put through exhaustive training regimens, requiring the expenditure of immense amounts of ammunition, fuel, etc. He then has to be equipped in state of the art, difficult to produce armor.

The Guardsman conscript, on the other hand, can be recruited from just about any population sample, is brought on at (relative) adulthood, thereby reducing the developmental costs to the State to a minimal amount. He is then trained to a very basic level, armed with inexpensive weapons and armor, and sent into battle.

The cost to develop a single Space Marine is probably several million times higher than the cost to basically train and equip an Imperial Guardsman. I really can't bring myself to drink a quart of paint thinner so I can try and figure out how you did your math. But, safe to say, and to answer your question, yes, Space Marines are more expensive to create, and no, the point values that represent their effectiveness on the battlefield has no reflection on their back end production cost.

As far as the effectiveness of Marines, their numbers, capabilities and vehicles are all force multipliers. One Marine versus ten Guardsman in an OK Corral style shootout isn't what they are talking about when they say a 10:1 ratio. They are saying that most missions that would require ten guardsmen could be completed by a single Marine because the Space Marine would come up with a better solution and would be better equipped and trained to accomplish it. This isn't to say that every mission has that conversion ratio. Obviously you'd rather throw a thousand expendable Guardsmen into a frontal assault at a heavily defended target than waste a hundred Space Marines on the same task, but that's because the numbers of the Guardsmen's numbers would provide them a weight of fire. But, at the same time, you'd sooner throw a hundred Space Marines into an drop assault on a high value target than try and use a thousand man airborne Guard battalion.

The Black Templars have 6,000+ Marines and use them as drivers and what not

As a rule I don't really consider (in terms of fluff) Space Marines to be all that cost effective given what they are capable of. There's nothing really limiting their numbers, but they're difficult to create and replace, and generally a highly specialized force that can sometimes be forced into more generalist roles by circumstance (EG being the only force available.) Note that in saying they aren't cost effective I am not saying they are ineffective - they're quite effective and quite powerful, but in the sense that a Titan is. It's powerful, its effective, and its got nasty powerful weapons, but if you were actually being practical about it, you could do a whole hell of alot better. (In this case I'd think something closer to how the Sisters of Battle or Storm Troopers operate would be more 'cost effective' if not as individually powerful.) You could also use augmetics (EG some of the higher-end Skitarii or combat servitors are pretty nasty - easily the equal or superior of an Astartes.) or genetic engineering/drugs/gland implants (like the Lostock, or any of the various Necromunda gangs, or similar - again we're not talking a "one to one" comparison with Astartes - no force can quite match them, but most examples that exist in 40K fluff can come close if handled right.)

I suspect the reason that Astartes exist (and why they are considered worthwhile) isn't so much for their combat/military effectiveness (which is considerable) but more for the psychological effects. The Imperium literally idolizes Space Marines, their Primarchs are considered saints. They are living links to and symbols of the Emperor. They are also terrifying both for their appearance and their combat prowess and their relative inhumanity. They are both an inspiration and a warning - not unlike Commissars, and they are a useful propoganda and psychological motivation tool (not unlike Titans, which are also seen as the pinnacle of Imperial might and ability.) Hell given the nature of the Warp, that sort of psychological thing can, on a large enough scale, be a force multiplier all its own (think Orks and the WAAAGH effect but in more human terms. I doubt the red armoured space marines are much faster than the non-red ones )

To a lesser degree as well they can be quite effective hatchet men, when you need a place purged or a planet destroyed and tyou can't rely on other factions to do it (due to emotional attachment, greed, etc.) although the Astartes generate distrust for their own reasons (independence.)