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I would happily play WE if the rules and models were better...In fact...they were my choice before VC :/

It's honestly quite apparent what GW is doing right now overall with the 8th ed book releases; GW is overall looking to fix those books which break the 8th edition magic system! Look at what's been done so far and what's rumored on the 'to-do' list;

- Orcs & Gobbos.
Had their own unique miscast chart.

- Tomb Kings.
Magic phase rules completely outside of the BRB and they could charge out of turn through magic. Undead were also nerfed into near unplayability by fundamental rulebook changes. (even more so than the poor Wood Elves...)

- Ogres.
Again, their magic phase was drastically different to the rulebook and allowed them to easily spam multiple copies of the same spell. In effect, every single caster was a 'loremaster'!

- Vampire Counts.
Magic phase again, drasitcally different to the rulebook. You could 'buy' rediculous amounts of the same spell, charge out of turn in the magic phase, have ludicrous amounts of cheap 'loremasters' AND re-cast certain spells ad nausium! Oh, and 90% of the book was utter crap and the army list was reduced to 2 viable units + rares to flavour and generate even more cries of "OMG brokunzzz!11!!!!!1!" than even 7th ed Daemons did!

- Empire.
Um, magic phase shinanigans again... Empire can simply remove the magic phase from any opponent by stocking up on certain characters, who are also rather cheap pts-wise. They can also carry over magic dice at very little cost through a rather rude magic item. (well, rude in 8th when we have smaller capped power/dispel pools!)

- Warriors of Chaos.
Core is too cheap, mark of tzeentch is OTT in 8th, hellcannon is durpy since it can misfire and explode every single wizard on the table. Infernal puppet *really* needs to go. For these guys, it's less about a wonky magic phase and more about the army's 'problem units' being hugely obnoxious.

- Dark Elves.
Yet again, they break cardinal rules of the magic phase! Adding disgusting amounts of extra power dice through Power of Darkness, being able to chuck a billion +1 dice at spells. Now add in the know OTT problems like the super cheap hydras or the pendant 'o win.

- Dwarfs.
Like empire, they can actually just auto-cancel out any opponent's magic phase, only they're even meaner about it! Plus, they don't have a 'magic phase' of their own, and the anvil allows for out of turn charges which are a big no-no in 8th.


Plus, there's also the other big reason why Brets & WE's aren't on the radar yet; The studio just don't know how to deal with and expand these armies for 8th ed!
Brets right now run the risk of easily becoming 'empire dressed in flowers' if you add in too much infantry, but then need to differentiate the 4 knightly ranks more without becoming 'empire knightly orders v2.0'. The brb background also mentions apparitions and ghostly spirits, but how to incorperate those without simply coming off as 'undead but with mostly living guys too!'

WE's are right mess in 8th. Simply giving them back ranked units just makes them into 'High Elves who've gone Green'. But all skirmishing and/or fast cav combat units just don't hold wieght in 8th when they can't ever break ranks.


Simply put, other armies have bigger 'core rules' issues that need dealing with and are also much easier to update as well. It sucks for sure, but what would WE & bret players really want;
a) GW to rush out new books, not take the proper time, screw things up even more and leave players feeling somewhat cheated knowing it's going to be at least 8+ years before another attempt is made?

b) suck it up, maybe even take a break for another 2 or so years, but get a 'Dark Eldar' sized reward at the end of the day?

I know which choice I'd rather have!

I like puppet tho thats always good times making mages explode.

But I mean maybe a bit of an update for the chaos lord and sorcerer lord would be nice higher ld maybe an extra special rule or something like that.

All marks becoming useful would be nice.

The hellcannon has a 1 in 6 chance of making everyone miscast and personally in all the games I have played that one has never come up :(

But yes there are books out there that need it more but who know we might get lucky.

Experiment 626 wrote:
- Warriors of Chaos.
Core is too cheap, mark of tzeentch is OTT in 8th, hellcannon is durpy since it can misfire and explode every single wizard on the table. Infernal puppet *really* needs to go. For these guys, it's less about a wonky magic phase and more about the army's 'problem units' being hugely obnoxious.

Only the marauders could be viewed as cheap, warriors come at a very premium price. The puppet is what helps WoC have a strong magic phase, to make up for lack of ranged imo, but I suspect if it stays in, it's points cost will rise, but I'm hoping otherwise.

Experiment 626 wrote: Plus, there's also the other big reason why Brets & WE's aren't on the radar yet; The studio just don't know how to deal with and expand these armies for 8th ed!
Brets right now run the risk of easily becoming 'empire dressed in flowers' if you add in too much infantry, but then need to differentiate the 4 knightly ranks more without becoming 'empire knightly orders v2.0'. The brb background also mentions apparitions and ghostly spirits, but how to incorperate those without simply coming off as 'undead but with mostly living guys too!'

WE's are right mess in 8th. Simply giving them back ranked units just makes them into 'High Elves who've gone Green'. But all skirmishing and/or fast cav combat units just don't hold wieght in 8th when they can't ever break ranks..

With cavalry being the opposite of 7 previous editions (you know, combat winning on a charge and putting units to flight through it) they're at a severe disadvatnage with the current metagame, so unless Brets get some very unique and possibly seen as broken rules I'm guessing they're bringing back foot knights, which goes against the imagary overall of the cavalry army they have been built to be past editions.
Wood elves... Meant to be stealthy, deadly with those bows etc. Well, the skirmish and cavalry problems put them again looking around wondering what happened, but as a shooty army, Empire and dwarves do it better due to the armour piercing and higher strength. As their superior statline demands a higher cost too, the army really is in trouble as it stands, again in need of army specific rules which break the BRB's outlines for thier regiments and maybe bows.

Experiment 626 wrote:Simply put, other armies have bigger 'core rules' issues that need dealing with and are also much easier to update as well. It sucks for sure, but what would WE & bret players really want;
a) GW to rush out new books, not take the proper time, screw things up even more and leave players feeling somewhat cheated knowing it's going to be at least 8+ years before another attempt is made?

b) suck it up, maybe even take a break for another 2 or so years, but get a 'Dark Eldar' sized reward at the end of the day?

I know which choice I'd rather have!

Exactly. Plus as has been said a few times, it's down to what the developers can come up with for the army. If there is no inspiration for it, then another will take the spotlight. Yes both those armies REALLY need help to have more than one playable build as it stands, and some armies need rebalancing, but I do believe that WoC simply need an errata, but hope with the new book each unit becomes worthwhile and seen as a viable choice to break the current lists wide open for choice. Besides it's nice to see differring armies of the same race hit the tables .

cowpow16 wrote:I like puppet tho thats always good times making mages explode.

But I mean maybe a bit of an update for the chaos lord and sorcerer lord would be nice higher ld maybe an extra special rule or something like that.

All marks becoming useful would be nice.

The hellcannon has a 1 in 6 chance of making everyone miscast and personally in all the games I have played that one has never come up :(

But yes there are books out there that need it more but who know we might get lucky.

I've never rated the hellcannon personally, and never used it. A friend who has used one more times than i can remember has also never had the miscast result turn up, but remember that come at the cost of a misfire too!

I do hope that the armies most in need get the attention they require, sooner rather than later, I haven't played Dark Angels since the last codex for them, so know the pain of the WE and Bret players, lets hope for a nice couple of years releases . My suspision though is that Brets and WE's were the last armies in 4th/5th ed to get looked at for a book, it may be the same story again now.

WE's are right mess in 8th. Simply giving them back ranked units just makes them into 'High Elves who've gone Green'. But all skirmishing and/or fast cav combat units just don't hold wieght in 8th when they can't ever break ranks.


Simply put, other armies have bigger 'core rules' issues that need dealing with and are also much easier to update as well. It sucks for sure, but what would WE & bret players really want;
a) GW to rush out new books, not take the proper time, screw things up even more and leave players feeling somewhat cheated knowing it's going to be at least 8+ years before another attempt is made?

b) suck it up, maybe even take a break for another 2 or so years, but get a 'Dark Eldar' sized reward at the end of the day?

First off in regards to keeping them as a skirmishing army that ambushes well maybe give them an army wide rule that would allow them to go toe to toe with steadfast and have a chance? For Example give them a rule where in CC they negate steadfast unless the enemy unit is "Double" in size then the WE unit, or they get +# combat resolution automatically for charging (aka ambushing) into combat by surprise, something that will make it at least a little more even.

In regards to us wanting GW to "rush" out an army that is an unfair and inaccurate statement. I want the book to be good and for GW to take their time and not give us something totally ridiculous (as many people have been pointing out the new VC book). And I have been "sucking it up" since 8th came out and we shouldnt have to take a break because GW refuses to update our armies and instead are updating armies that really dont need to be redone, thats my only issue with this. Hell Id be happy with a redone FAQ just as long as it made us a little more competitive.

Its true they have to misfire but hey if the misfire happens might as well hope its in your favor

I think rather than do a book that needs an update they will rather do a book that is popular.
Seeing as if its popular than there will be lots of people buying the new models as well as the books and such.

Id its like WE or brets thats quite a small fraction of fantasy yes people play them but other races have much more support.

The argument can be made that updating the books that need it will bring more people to play said armies.
Yes but then the thing is WE and brets have a different play style than every other army out there and for some people its all the play style. I mean at least personally I play woc because of the models and the play style.
If they changed that people may not want to play the army anymore.

I think gw is going to do what is best for their own best interest rather than what book needs it.

WE would be interesting because with 8th now they would need some crazy special rules and equipment but who knows we will see what happens.

biccat wrote:

Vulcan wrote:Empire is next, having one of the last oddball magic phases. Empire players, say goodbye to the ability to bank power or dispel dice because it is going away.

Apart from the Rod of Power, what is 'oddball' about the Empire magic phase?

That's it, but that's quite enough, don't you think? It's a lot more oddball magic than anything in the DE book, that's for sure.

EDIT: Okay, I forgot about the Sacrifical Dagger.

Dark Elves are more obnoxious with PoD spam & ignoring the max 6PD to-cast rules I find. The dagger can at least be delt with by just killing the unit it's in to limit how many models can be killed before causing a panic check.
However, my VC's have no counter for the DE player rolling up 8-10+ PD then chucking all of them into a purple sun which eats half my army of I2/3 units...


If the Empire do get to keep the Rod of Power as one of their 8-10'ish items, I can see it costing upwards of 60-85pts!

Keep in mind that us VC's did get to keep the Black Periapt, but it's now been increased in cost to a 'Lord only' choice. Granted I agree that Empire don't honestly need an item like that to stay competitive, unlike undead who can litterly live or die by the magic phase alone. But there's nothing to 100% say for certain that items which carry over dice are being axed from the game - they're just getting very expensive to take!

Experiment 626 wrote:It's honestly quite apparent what GW is doing right now overall with the 8th ed book releases; GW is overall looking to fix those books which break the 8th edition magic system! Look at what's been done so far and what's rumored on the 'to-do' list;

- Orcs & Gobbos.
Had their own unique miscast chart.

- Tomb Kings.
Magic phase rules completely outside of the BRB and they could charge out of turn through magic. Undead were also nerfed into near unplayability by fundamental rulebook changes. (even more so than the poor Wood Elves...)

- Ogres.
Again, their magic phase was drastically different to the rulebook and allowed them to easily spam multiple copies of the same spell. In effect, every single caster was a 'loremaster'!

- Vampire Counts.
Magic phase again, drasitcally different to the rulebook. You could 'buy' rediculous amounts of the same spell, charge out of turn in the magic phase, have ludicrous amounts of cheap 'loremasters' AND re-cast certain spells ad nausium! Oh, and 90% of the book was utter crap and the army list was reduced to 2 viable units + rares to flavour and generate even more cries of "OMG brokunzzz!11!!!!!1!" than even 7th ed Daemons did!

- Empire.
Um, magic phase shinanigans again... Empire can simply remove the magic phase from any opponent by stocking up on certain characters, who are also rather cheap pts-wise. They can also carry over magic dice at very little cost through a rather rude magic item. (well, rude in 8th when we have smaller capped power/dispel pools!)

- Warriors of Chaos.
Core is too cheap, mark of tzeentch is OTT in 8th, hellcannon is durpy since it can misfire and explode every single wizard on the table. Infernal puppet *really* needs to go. For these guys, it's less about a wonky magic phase and more about the army's 'problem units' being hugely obnoxious.

- Dark Elves.
Yet again, they break cardinal rules of the magic phase! Adding disgusting amounts of extra power dice through Power of Darkness, being able to chuck a billion +1 dice at spells. Now add in the know OTT problems like the super cheap hydras or the pendant 'o win.

- Dwarfs.
Like empire, they can actually just auto-cancel out any opponent's magic phase, only they're even meaner about it! Plus, they don't have a 'magic phase' of their own, and the anvil allows for out of turn charges which are a big no-no in 8th.


Plus, there's also the other big reason why Brets & WE's aren't on the radar yet; The studio just don't know how to deal with and expand these armies for 8th ed!
Brets right now run the risk of easily becoming 'empire dressed in flowers' if you add in too much infantry, but then need to differentiate the 4 knightly ranks more without becoming 'empire knightly orders v2.0'. The brb background also mentions apparitions and ghostly spirits, but how to incorperate those without simply coming off as 'undead but with mostly living guys too!'

WE's are right mess in 8th. Simply giving them back ranked units just makes them into 'High Elves who've gone Green'. But all skirmishing and/or fast cav combat units just don't hold wieght in 8th when they can't ever break ranks.


Simply put, other armies have bigger 'core rules' issues that need dealing with and are also much easier to update as well. It sucks for sure, but what would WE & bret players really want;
a) GW to rush out new books, not take the proper time, screw things up even more and leave players feeling somewhat cheated knowing it's going to be at least 8+ years before another attempt is made?

b) suck it up, maybe even take a break for another 2 or so years, but get a 'Dark Eldar' sized reward at the end of the day?

I know which choice I'd rather have!

I disagree. They are going to put Wood Elves in the next HE codex. They are pushing Cathay alot recently.

I voted Dwarfs, as they are the last army that can charge out of phase, and also have no magic at all.
I see Rune Priests getting to use runes like spells to give dwarfs a real magic phase.

A Cathay type army would be sweet, but I think we'd see Chaos Dwarfs brought back before we saw an army from Cathay.

cricketofdeth wrote:I voted Dwarfs, as they are the last army that can charge out of phase, and also have no magic at all.
I see Rune Priests getting to use runes like spells to give dwarfs a real magic phase.

A Cathay type army would be sweet, but I think we'd see Chaos Dwarfs brought back before we saw an army from Cathay.

Besides the Dwarfs not having any magic, they still are a solid army for the most part. Heck, they have one if not the best gunline list in the game, and there Anvil of Doom is still amazing at what it does. Personally i think the Empire needs more help then the Dwarfs, because although many people say they are top tier, I disagree, because yes they can compete with them, we still lack a lot of hitting power against most armies.

LotR till summer when we'll have a 40k codex and 6th ed launch, and then WoC end of the year imo. After them, Empire or Dwarves. I'm betting Brets and WE get a 9th ed makeover "because they're not popular so we wont make them useful to become popular".

Empire

I'm putting my two cents on a Chaos Dwarf update!!

But seriously, everything I've read indicates Empire as a summer release (which I really would rather they didn't based on the if it aint broke don't fix it principal) but funny BoLS does't even forecast Empire on the radar.

Tho if you look at the BRB there is reference to Razorgriff Cavalry and that, mixed with the new Theo Bruckner model on Warhammer Forge may mean monstrous cavalry in the Empire's future! How could would that be?

For those who say the Empire doesn't have a "monster" I have to disagree - the Stank is easily our "monster" - just in a unique form.


A little talk on an Empire update on a dediated empire forum: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=35755.0

Besides the Dwarfs not having any magic, they still are a solid army for the most part. Heck, they have one if not the best gunline list in the game, and there Anvil of Doom is still amazing at what it does. Personally i think the Empire needs more help then the Dwarfs, because although many people say they are top tier, I disagree, because yes they can compete with them, we still lack a lot of hitting power against most armies.

Don't get me wrong, dwarfs are a solid army. I'm just saying they are the last army that can charge out of phase, and that's why they will get the new book first.
This is just a shot in the dark from me though; I don't know anything concrete about it.

Empire needs nothing, as they are still stupid good. Even the FW Chaos Dwarfs envy the steamtank, and wish they could get a real cannon like their non-chaos cousins/Emp. An that’s not even getting into their broken magic items.

2000 Volts wrote:I'm putting my two cents on a Chaos Dwarf update!!

But seriously, everything I've read indicates Empire as a summer release (which I really would rather they didn't based on the if it aint broke don't fix it principal) but funny BoLS does't even forecast Empire on the radar.

Tho if you look at the BRB there is reference to Razorgriff Cavalry and that, mixed with the new Theo Bruckner model on Warhammer Forge may mean monstrous cavalry in the Empire's future! How could would that be?

For those who say the Empire doesn't have a "monster" I have to disagree - the Stank is easily our "monster" - just in a unique form.


A little talk on an Empire update on a dediated empire forum: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=35755.0

Where in the BRB does is that mate, curious to read this for myself.

Where in the brb does it say that? Not being douche just curious to see for myself.

I love how people ignore the rumored schedule of releases for this year.

I'll have to dig out the ol BRB and find it - Gimmie a solid day guys and I'll get you a page number.

Still even if its in the book, I doubt the Empire will get Demigryphons since we already have the Steam Tank and War Altar.

GK wrote:Still even if its in the book, I doubt the Empire will get Demigryphons since we already have the Steam Tank and War Altar.

I think demigryphs are pretty much a given honestly. GW seems like they're giving at least 1 of every troop type option to every army. Empire currently have no monstrous infantry, warbeast or cavalry, so demigryph knights would fill that void. They're also mentioned in the background section of the BRB, which most certainly is hinting at the likely new units each army is going to get this edition.
(ie: in the VC seciton, they mentioned the hellwraith which became the new terrorghiest, TK's got their sphinx, ogres a mamoth type creature, etc...)

personally, I'm waiting for Dark Elves because the BRB hints at giant statues of khain that come to life and butcher stuff! New mini avatars soud sweet! (and eldar players will finally get a new avatar in the deal too! )

Experiment 626 wrote:

GK wrote:Still even if its in the book, I doubt the Empire will get Demigryphons since we already have the Steam Tank and War Altar.

I think demigryphs are pretty much a given honestly. GW seems like they're giving at least 1 of every troop type option to every army. Empire currently have no monstrous infantry, warbeast or cavalry, so demigryph knights would fill that void. They're also mentioned in the background section of the BRB, which most certainly is hinting at the likely new units each army is going to get this edition.
(ie: in the VC seciton, they mentioned the hellwraith which became the new terrorghiest, TK's got their sphinx, ogres a mamoth type creature, etc...)

personally, I'm waiting for Dark Elves because the BRB hints at giant statues of khain that come to life and butcher stuff! New mini avatars soud sweet! (and eldar players will finally get a new avatar in the deal too! )

How exactly do Empire not have cavalry? they can have all cav lists!

I do like the idea of a new avatar model but my forgeworld model is still holding up quite nicely

Vulcan wrote:

biccat wrote:Apart from the Rod of Power, what is 'oddball' about the Empire magic phase?

That's it, but that's quite enough, don't you think? It's a lot more oddball magic than anything in the DE book, that's for sure.

All the Rod of Power does is let you shift power dice between casting and dispelling (usually towards dispelling). If the Empire player is putting dice into the RoP for a chance at more dispel dice he's not casting more spells.

Yes, Empire and Dwarves can shut down the opponents magic phase, but it's at the expense of their own magic phase.

I do admit that Warrior Priests and the Arch Lector are overpowered for their cost - a bound spell in addition to a free dispel die is pretty nice.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:How exactly do Empire not have cavalry? they can have all cav lists!

I believe he meant no monstrous cavalry. Just like they have no monstrous infantry.

biccat wrote:

Vulcan wrote:

biccat wrote:Apart from the Rod of Power, what is 'oddball' about the Empire magic phase?

That's it, but that's quite enough, don't you think? It's a lot more oddball magic than anything in the DE book, that's for sure.

All the Rod of Power does is let you shift power dice between casting and dispelling (usually towards dispelling). If the Empire player is putting dice into the RoP for a chance at more dispel dice he's not casting more spells.

Yes, Empire and Dwarves can shut down the opponents magic phase, but it's at the expense of their own magic phase.

I do admit that Warrior Priests and the Arch Lector are overpowered for their cost - a bound spell in addition to a free dispel die is pretty nice.

At lower pts levels it's purely defensive to max-out your dispel pool with lectors & priests, but once you hit the average game size of 2500-3000pts it's pretty damn easy to take at least a wizard lord + lector + 2x priests. That's an automatic 4DD every turn on top of what's rolled, so pretty good odds you'll at least be on par with or only 1 dice behind your opponent's power dice pool.

When the game includes entire armies who are designed to rely heavily on the magic phase to work, (ie: TK & VC), it's pretty rude to have a pair of armies that completely negate that entire phase!

Aerethan wrote:Empire, Warriors of Chaos, Dwarves(this might not happen), Dark Elves

That is the forecast from all the trustworthy rumor mongers. Dark Elves are slated for 2013.

Actually Dwarfs are very well going to get a book this year, I'm not sure where you got your info from. but it's wrong. Its going to be Empire, Dwarfs, then I'm not sure

I don't really buy into the reasoning that since dwarfs can charge out of phase they'll get done next, take into account that WE are capable of doing the same with the lore of athel loren and the fact that their still (seemingly) nowhere near being done and its just weird