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Lynata wrote:The Deathwatch doesn't get mentioned anymore at all in GW material ever since the 5E rulebook - I wonder if it's even still around in the studio version of the 'verse.

I hope so. Having different armies available for each of the three major Ordos works well, and there's a fair amount of fluff and potential fluff for the Deathwatch and their antics. Plus two other things: it'd be kind of wierd to have an entire fat RPG based on something that doesn't exist in GW's universe, and it's not like removing the Deathwatch would get them anything or improve the setting.

daveNYC wrote:Having different armies available for each of the three major Ordos works well [...]

Well, as of the GK Codex we do know that this at least is out of the window by now.
But yes, it is a bit sad, I too have gotten used to the three Chambers Militant as well and the small DW Kill Teams were a neat idea - especially as in GW's world, individual Deathwatch Marines would occasionally work with a team of normal humans, so there was a nice bit of intercompatibility going on in the Inquisitor RPG.
Whilst I certainly appreciate the SoB now being presented more like an Ecclesiarchy First force again, this would have been possible without cutting their ties to the Ordo Hereticus entirely.

daveNYC wrote:Plus two other things: it'd be kind of wierd to have an entire fat RPG based on something that doesn't exist in GW's universe, and it's not like removing the Deathwatch would get them anything or improve the setting.

Licensed material exists in its own world independent of what GW is writing, anyways, and FFG's books differ from studio material already on more than one occasion. The studio isn't going to let its development process get dictated by an outside source - I'm sure this is one of the reasons behind the lack of a canon policy and the entire "it's YOUR army" approach in the first place.

As far as the "improvements" are concerned, I'm afraid this is, as always, in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure a number of people would argue that removing Squats didn't improve the setting either. With the Deathwatch, it's even easier as they really only popped up in the Inquisitor RPG (which isn't officially supported anymore) and their outdated Kill-Team rules in some White Dwarf / Chapter Approved article from years ago. It may well be that the studio has simply changed its vision on how stuff should look like, probably influenced by people leaving / new people joining.

I'm holding out hope that a lot of Ward-fluff will simply be ignored once the next edition comes out. Some of his stuff I like, some of it I loathe, but the bits that really bother me are the parts where he makes changes for no particular reason at all. The GK relationship to the Inquisition and the removal of the Necron FTL are two example of changes that seem to have been done just for the sake of change.

I think the squats were removed because GW had designed themselves into a corner with their space dwarf bikers, and in order to shut people up about 'when will we get updates/new models' they decided to off them. Deathwatch OTOH, has little impact on anything, and getting rid of them really doesn't do much except decrease the richness of the settting. Plus it brings up the question as to why the Ordo Xenos would be using super-psyker Space Marines who are trained to fight daemons, against say, the Hrud. It wanders into Chewbacca on Endor territory.

They generally don't. Against the Hrud, the =I= has the Deathwatch. They have the GK available for when they need them... sometimes, though, an Inquisitor finds him/herself in a situation where they've got a whole lotta Hrud, and a handful of GK, but nary a DW in the sector.

Psienesis wrote:They generally don't. Against the Hrud, the =I= has the Deathwatch.

Not anymore, this is what daveNYC was referring to.
The new GK Codex specifically mentions that all Inquisitors will turn to the Grey Knights first now when faced with a threat they can't deal with themselves (which I hope at least includes locally requisitionable resources such as PDF).

Basically, these are the facts on how GW material looks like atm:
- Grey Knights are now the Chamber Militant of the Inquisition as a whole
- No word on the Sisters' relationship with the Inquisition whatsoever throughout 5E
- No word at all on whether the Deathwatch even exists throughout 5E (they are conspicuously absent from the "Defenders of the Imperium" list in the rulebook as well as the current Space Marine Codex)

Lynata wrote:Not anymore, this is what daveNYC was referring to.
The new GK Codex specifically mentions that all Inquisitors will turn to the Grey Knights first now when faced with a threat they can't deal with themselves (which I hope at least includes locally requisitionable resources such as PDF).

Basically, these are the facts on how GW material looks like atm:
- Grey Knights are now the Chamber Militant of the Inquisition as a whole
- No word on the Sisters' relationship with the Inquisition whatsoever throughout 5E
- No word at all on whether the Deathwatch even exists throughout 5E (they are conspicuously absent from the "Defenders of the Imperium" list in the rulebook as well as the current Space Marine Codex)

The way I see it is that only the Grey Knights are referred to as the Chamber Militant because the Sisters and the Deathwatch have far more autonomy. The Sisters are technically under the Ecclesiarchy whereas the Deathwatch has their own organizational structure set up through a series of watchtowers throughout the Imperium, as written in the Deathwatch RPG. An inquisitor can still call on either of these organizations, but they're not obligated to respond. It's similar to how an inquisitor would petition a space marine chapter for assistance. He might not get it, but more often than not he would. The Grey Knights, on the other hand, are directly under the control of the Inquisition and consistently work with the Ordo Malleus.

Ah! Well, that's certainly one way to interpret it.

I should probably point out that my lack of recognition for the Deathwatch in 5E is not only due to it being absent in all the studio material where one would expect it to be mentioned, but also the ridiculous proportions it has been bloated up to in FFG's RPG, so I am somewhat biased.

Not that this should be an issue, anyways - all of us pursue our own perception of the setting. For what it's worth, people could just as well ignore this design change in the GK Codex altogether as well and they wouldn't be "wrong".

Just like people are also free to ignore that, at least as per current GW material, everybody would be obligated to respond when an Inquisitor asks for assistance (not that they actually do, of course ).

Bongfu wrote:Read the Siege of Vraks series of IA books. It clearly shows that the Grey Knights travel with and fight along side Inquisitors.

Yes, but only for battle situations or chasing heretics of extreme importance. The Inquisition are investigators, Grey Knights are the elite of the elite who don't officially exist. Ergo, an Inquisitor isn't likely to have a retinue of Grey Knights on him/her. Because, you know, giant silver warriors are a bit incongruous.

Personally, I think you are both right. Maybe we could say it would depend on the Inquisitor in question (they seem to differ in style and approach, some going the "gumshoe detective" route with trenchcoat and wide-brim hat, others appearing with full Terminator armour and thousands of soldiers to purge entire cities in an orgy of cleansing flames), as well as his particular mission?

Psienesis wrote:The SM "equivalent" to the Valk is the Thunderhawk.

Well, the Astartes equivalent is the Stormraven. Small, sub-orbital gunship with transport capacity...

SoB have been effectively cut off as a Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus but GW will find it hard to give the same treatment for the Deathwatch, who unlike the SoB have no other existence except in the context of the Inquisition and have had multiple novels. Unlike the SoB you can't just not mention their Inquisitorial ties because the DW is an Ordo Xenos formation drawn from SM chapters. You'd have to delete them entirely, which the universe and writers who don't understand NW nuainces won't do. They're already featured in a great deal of books and expansion games/RPG's and even have their own novel series.

My guess is Ward had his own vision of the Inquisition (a force of advisers/helpers for the Grey Knights) that GW didn't really notice or care about, and it will just convinently be ignored (at least in the case of the Deathwatch). The Codex doesn't eliminate the DW, it just subtlely infers that the GK are now the all around fighting force for the Inquisition. Something GW can easily contradict in the future, especially since they basically and shamelessly changed the Necrons into a whole new species.

Harriticus wrote:SoB have been effectively cut off as a Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus but GW will find it hard to give the same treatment for the Deathwatch, who unlike the SoB have no other existence except in the context of the Inquisition and have had multiple novels. Unlike the SoB you can't just not mention their Inquisitorial ties because the DW is an Ordo Xenos formation drawn from SM chapters. You'd have to delete them entirely, which the universe and writers who don't understand NW nuainces won't do. They're already featured in a great deal of books and expansion games/RPG's and even have their own novel series.

My guess is Ward had his own vision of the Inquisition (a force of advisers/helpers for the Grey Knights) that GW didn't really notice or care about, and it will just convinently be ignored (at least in the case of the Deathwatch). The Codex doesn't eliminate the DW, it just subtlely infers that the GK are now the all around fighting force for the Inquisition. Something GW can easily contradict in the future, especially since they basically and shamelessly changed the Necrons into a whole new species.

No, just no.

If you read the fluff in FFG's Deathwatch RPG. The Deathwatch is chapter drawn from all chapters. It's lead by captains on permanent duty there. The Ordo Xenos can request assistance from them, and due to their relations, will almost always respond in some way.

Ward has nothing to do with it, and even if he did, theres nothing wrong with it.

Also, those novels were written by none other then C.S. Goto, which makes them non-canonical in every possible way. He is the worst writer, ever. Period.

FFing multilasers...

Soladrin wrote:

Harriticus wrote:SoB have been effectively cut off as a Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus but GW will find it hard to give the same treatment for the Deathwatch, who unlike the SoB have no other existence except in the context of the Inquisition and have had multiple novels. Unlike the SoB you can't just not mention their Inquisitorial ties because the DW is an Ordo Xenos formation drawn from SM chapters. You'd have to delete them entirely, which the universe and writers who don't understand NW nuainces won't do. They're already featured in a great deal of books and expansion games/RPG's and even have their own novel series.

My guess is Ward had his own vision of the Inquisition (a force of advisers/helpers for the Grey Knights) that GW didn't really notice or care about, and it will just convinently be ignored (at least in the case of the Deathwatch). The Codex doesn't eliminate the DW, it just subtlely infers that the GK are now the all around fighting force for the Inquisition. Something GW can easily contradict in the future, especially since they basically and shamelessly changed the Necrons into a whole new species.

No, just no.

If you read the fluff in FFG's Deathwatch RPG. The Deathwatch is chapter drawn from all chapters. It's lead by captains on permanent duty there. The Ordo Xenos can request assistance from them, and due to their relations, will almost always respond in some way.

Ward has nothing to do with it, and even if he did, theres nothing wrong with it.

Also, those novels were written by none other then C.S. Goto, which makes them non-canonical in every possible way. He is the worst writer, ever. Period.

FFing multilasers...

It's more then a relation of the Inquisition "requesting" their help. They're a standing force of the Inquisition and directly subordinate to the Ordo Xenos. That's why it has no original members. Hell, their homeworld is an Inquisitorial Fortress according to Index Astartes. They don't even have a Fortress-Monestary.

Harriticus wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Harriticus wrote:SoB have been effectively cut off as a Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus but GW will find it hard to give the same treatment for the Deathwatch, who unlike the SoB have no other existence except in the context of the Inquisition and have had multiple novels. Unlike the SoB you can't just not mention their Inquisitorial ties because the DW is an Ordo Xenos formation drawn from SM chapters. You'd have to delete them entirely, which the universe and writers who don't understand NW nuainces won't do. They're already featured in a great deal of books and expansion games/RPG's and even have their own novel series.

My guess is Ward had his own vision of the Inquisition (a force of advisers/helpers for the Grey Knights) that GW didn't really notice or care about, and it will just convinently be ignored (at least in the case of the Deathwatch). The Codex doesn't eliminate the DW, it just subtlely infers that the GK are now the all around fighting force for the Inquisition. Something GW can easily contradict in the future, especially since they basically and shamelessly changed the Necrons into a whole new species.

No, just no.

If you read the fluff in FFG's Deathwatch RPG. The Deathwatch is chapter drawn from all chapters. It's lead by captains on permanent duty there. The Ordo Xenos can request assistance from them, and due to their relations, will almost always respond in some way.

Ward has nothing to do with it, and even if he did, theres nothing wrong with it.

Also, those novels were written by none other then C.S. Goto, which makes them non-canonical in every possible way. He is the worst writer, ever. Period.

FFing multilasers...

It's more then a relation of the Inquisition "requesting" their help. They're a standing force of the Inquisition and directly subordinate to the Ordo Xenos. That's why it has no original members. Hell, their homeworld is an Inquisitorial Fortress according to Index Astartes. They don't even have a Fortress-Monestary.

Like I said, if FFG's Deathwatch is canonical, it retcons that.

Harriticus wrote:
It's more then a relation of the Inquisition "requesting" their help. They're a standing force of the Inquisition and directly subordinate to the Ordo Xenos. That's why it has no original members.

It "has no original members" because it was created by the consent of all the various Astartes Chapters as an organization to serve as the "special response" team for the Ordo Xenos. Since then, the Deathwatch has become far more than that and they have a level of independence which makes some Inquisitors look like altar boys.

Hell, their homeworld is an Inquisitorial Fortress according to Index Astartes. They don't even have a Fortress-Monastery.

Because there is no one source for the Deathwatch. They're not a "Chapter" in the common sense.

The Deathwatch are drawn from any and all Chapters of the Astartes which will voluntarily send members to serve within the Deathwatch. Some Astartes will then choose to stay on in a permanent function.

And then theres black shields, hurr.

Black Shields are irrelevant to the discussion as they have no history when they become part of the Deathwatch.

But they are awesome.

Harriticus wrote:SoB have been effectively cut off as a Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus but GW will find it hard to give the same treatment for the Deathwatch, who unlike the SoB have no other existence except in the context of the Inquisition and have had multiple novels.

Then again, perhaps it is exactly this rare occurrence in the TT that could make the studio perceive them as "easy to forget"? They're way below the importance that Squat once had, at least. Even below combos such as Hereticus Inquisitor + SoB armies, which you currently can't do anymore as well. All they ever had in the TT were some optional WD/CA rules for a 5 man Kill Team ages ago.

Harriticus wrote:Unlike the SoB you can't just not mention their Inquisitorial ties because the DW is an Ordo Xenos formation drawn from SM chapters.

Well, for what it's worth, FFG's RPG has effectively cut them off from the Ordo Xenos long ago - all they stil have going on in that interpretation of the setting is some sort of co-op endeavour, but no formal ties.

This is one way how they could be kept in the setting, actually, though personally I don't really like the idea of the DW becoming just another fully-fledged Chapter in their own right, complete with their own space fleet and armoured formations. Matter of preferences, though, and we'll all have to find our own answers on how to deal with this question. I for one wonder if we'll ever see the DW referenced in an actual GW book either way.

They were cut off long before Deathwatch. Nothing in their fluff ever suggested that they were entirely reliant upon the Inquisition to operate.

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing in their fluff ever suggested that they were entirely reliant upon the Inquisition to operate.

Yeah right ...

"Deathwatch members are volunteers from Space Marine Chapters that rigidly adhere to the Codex Astartes. Because teams are made up of battle brothers from several Chapters, it is essential they follow a similar doctrine. On the Eastern Fringe of the Imperium, the Inquisitorial Fortress at Talassa Prime has recruited, trained and equipped Kill Teams from the Ultramarines, Scythes of the Emperor and Lamenters Chapters for service against the Tyranids."
-- GW White Dwarf / Chapter Approved: Deathwatch Kill Team rules

"When we were first discussing ideas to include in the sample characters for Inquisitor, the Grey Knights was the most obvious choice for a Space Marine character. It was partly for this reason that we decided to introduce something new instead, in the form of the Ordo Xenos Deathwatch."
-- GW Inquisitor RPG, "Using Space Marines" PDF article by Gav Thorpe

"Like the other Ordos of the Inquisition, the Ordo Xenos have their own Space Marine Chapter - the Deathwatch."
-- GW Inquisitor RPG core rulebook

"It is clear then that wherever possible it is best if the Inquisition can deal with a threat using its own resources, avoiding the dangerous entanglements that may result from involving other agencies and military forces. It is for this reason that the Inquisition maintains its own fighting formations, foremost amongst them being the Kill-teams of the Deathwatch Space Marines and the daemon-hunting Grey Knights Space Marines."
-- GW Inquisitor RPG Thorian Sourcebook

The simple fact is that FFG's version of the Deathwatch has little to do with how the studio described it. Their fans seem to welcome this kind of independence from the Inquisition, though, at least this was the impression I got on the FFG forums when this topic came up.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Nothing in their fluff ever suggested that they were entirely reliant upon the Inquisition to operate.

Yeah right ...

"Deathwatch members are volunteers from Space Marine Chapters that rigidly adhere to the Codex Astartes. Because teams are made up of battle brothers from several Chapters, it is essential they follow a similar doctrine. On the Eastern Fringe of the Imperium, the Inquisitorial Fortress at Talassa Prime has recruited, trained and equipped Kill Teams from the Ultramarines, Scythes of the Emperor and Lamenters Chapters for service against the Tyranids."
-- GW White Dwarf / Chapter Approved: Deathwatch Kill Team rules

Sorry, where does it say that they are "entirely reliant upon the Inquisition to operate"?

It simply says that the Inquisitorial Fortress at Talassa Prime on the Eastern Fringe of the Imperium has recruited, trained, and equipped Kill Teams from the Ultramarines, Scythes of the Emperor, and Lamenters Chapters for service against the Tyranids. Those 3 Chapters, by the by, are examples of the other part within that quote: "teams made up of battle-brothers from several Chapters, it is essential they follow a similar doctrine".

"When we were first discussing ideas to include in the sample characters for Inquisitor, the Grey Knights was the most obvious choice for a Space Marine character. It was partly for this reason that we decided to introduce something new instead, in the form of the Ordo Xenos Deathwatch."
-- GW Inquisitor RPG, "Using Space Marines" PDF article by Gav Thorpe

And? That proves nothing, outside of Gav referring to the Deathwatch with the Ordo Xenos designation.
The Grey Knights have been called the "Ordo Malleus Grey Knights" before, that doesn't mean that the Grey Knights can't operate independent of the Inquisition.

"Like the other Ordos of the Inquisition, the Ordo Xenos have their own Space Marine Chapter - the Deathwatch."
-- GW Inquisitor RPG core rulebook

So where's the Ordo Hereticus Space Marine Chapter?
Oh right...

"It is clear then that wherever possible it is best if the Inquisition can deal with a threat using its own resources, avoiding the dangerous entanglements that may result from involving other agencies and military forces. It is for this reason that the Inquisition maintains its own fighting formations, foremost amongst them being the Kill-teams of the Deathwatch Space Marines and the daemon-hunting Grey Knights Space Marines."
-- GW Inquisitor RPG Thorian Sourcebook

Again, that doesn't say that the Deathwatch or Grey Knights require the Inquisition to operate.

The simple fact is that FFG's version of the Deathwatch has little to do with how the studio described it. Their fans seem to welcome this kind of independence from the Inquisition, though, at least this was the impression I got on the FFG forums when this topic came up.

Probably because the Inquisition isn't actually a big deal when it comes to warfare. They're advisors and strategists, not warmasters.

I'm sorry, I was under the assumption that the combination of "the Inquisition's own fighting formation" with the Inquisition "recruiting, training and equipping" these Marines kinda hinted at some strong ties there. But if you think that Space Marines do not require training or wargear, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I've long since realized you loathe admitting a mistake or even adapting your view - I think the most I ever got out of you was changing from "There's nothing in the current books saying there is only one regiment." to "Well then that Codex and everyone who wrote it suck!"

So I'll just leave it at that and walk outta here instead of turning yet another thread into a pissing contest. You don't want to acknowledge those sources, that's fine by me - I'm sure other readers can decide for themselves. After all, given the absence of canon, none of our opinions and preferred perceptions can be "wrong".

Lynata wrote:I'm sorry, I was under the assumption that the combination of "the Inquisition's own fighting formation" with the Inquisition "recruiting, training and equipping" these Marines kinda hinted at some strong ties there. But if you think that Space Marines do not require training or wargear, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So why did the Deathwatch have black armor with a silver arm and one shoulderpad in their Chapter's colors? Did the Inquisition just have a huge stock of shoulderpads painted up to match various Chapters?

Soladrin wrote:

Lynata wrote:I'm sorry, I was under the assumption that the combination of "the Inquisition's own fighting formation" with the Inquisition "recruiting, training and equipping" these Marines kinda hinted at some strong ties there. But if you think that Space Marines do not require training or wargear, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So why did the Deathwatch have black armor with a silver arm and one shoulderpad in their Chapter's colors? Did the Inquisition just have a huge stock of shoulderpads painted up to match various Chapters?

If memory serves, they retain one shoulder-pad in the color of the original chapter in order to not upset the machine spirit of the armour. The actual armour comes from the original chapter. The rest is painted black.

You can repaint a pauldron, it's not hard, and the Inquisition is going to know where a given Marine is coming from. He might even bring it with him from his original suit of chapter-issued power armor, and simply replace the DW suit's pauldron with that one.

Psienesis. They have their armour from their original chapter. They just paint it black.

A bit odd, since it would, to me, make more sense for the SM assigned to the DW to hand his power armor over to his Chapter, so that they can use it to outfit another Battle-Brother for service to the home-Chapter, and receive, instead, a new suit of power armor from the DW when he arrives.

This way, should that Battle-Brother fall in battle in the course of his duties to the DW, his home-chapter is not out a suit of possibly relic power armor, and the DW can handle the logistics of recovering/replacing it internally.

SM's bond with their armor, machine spirit and all that. They don't simply leave it behind if they don't have to.

Yeah, but they also hand it down from one Marine to the next and, I dunno, but you'd think that some blinged-out suit of UM power armor might be a little pissed off to find its gold and diamond-encrusted surfaces slathered over with black spraypaint,