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Actually, no, that's not what it means. Eternal life is included in that term, but it's not its sole meaning.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/immortal

Lynata wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Space Marines immortality

It is perhaps noticeable that the term "immortal" only ever seems to pop up in licensed material. Indeed, the Space Marines Codex specifically describes them as "mortal" (in the Legion of the Dead fluff blurb, where it is used to differentiate between the legendary Legionnaires and "normal" Space Marines).

Normally I wouldn't be so picky about this, but I've come to have little tolerance to this particular term as a certain licensed RPG keeps using it to showcase how gakky normal humans are.

Horus Rising is a Black Library book - the first of the HH series. So it has as much validity as other people discussing the ancient Salamander in that series. You see to be confusing it with theFFG games.

-Loki- wrote:Horus Rising is a Black Library book - the first of the HH series. So it has as much validity as other people discussing the ancient Salamander in that series. You see to be confusing it with theFFG games.

No confusion, it just seems to be a popular theme amongst licensed products. I've long since noticed a trend that Space Marines are made "more awesome" over there than in GW's material, likely to increase interest with the fanbase, or perhaps because they are written by fans.

I've only seen the "immortal" bit in FFG's RPG so far, but reading about these HH books I made the connection.

well then lets set the parameters of the question shall we?

Immortal:
im·mor·tal/iˈmôrtl/
Adjective:
Living forever; never dying or decaying.
Noun:
An immortal being, esp. a god of ancient Greece or Rome.
Synonyms:
undying - deathless - never-dying - imperishable

by definition, no, the space marines are not immortal. (clearly)

so the proper question then, is do the space marines fall victim to aging?

that answer is yes. they will all decay and die. its just a VERY long time for them to do so.

Rimmy wrote:so the proper question then, is do the space marines fall victim to aging?
that answer is yes. they will all decay and die. its just a VERY long time for them to do so.

Thinking about it, this is probably the most logical approach. Space Marines clearly do get older - unless we assume that the aging process stops somewhere around the age of 50, for that's how the oldest-looking Space Marines look like. If the Astartes were to be able to influence this, I'm certain they'd stop their biological clocks one or two decades earlier, so I'd interpret this in a way that Marine biology - just like the juvenat treatments for the nobility and high-ranking officials - considerably slows down their aging process without actually stopping it. As a result, they'd grow too old sooner or later.

Fellow dakkanaut daveNYC mentioned a Salamanders novel where the author is of the same opinion, describing how old Salamanders who are no longer fit for service go out on a "long walk" through the wasteland. You know, like in the Judge Dredd movie.
I have no idea what book that could be, but maybe one of you do.

Of course, you'll still have a number of ancient exceptions here and there, but mostly those seem to be pretty weird cases where you can't truly argue with science.

Lynata wrote:

Of course, you'll still have a number of ancient exceptions here and there, but mostly those seem to be pretty weird cases where you can't truly argue with science.

Perhaps the dramatic biological alteration that Space Marines undergo simply affects different people to different degrees. Given how wonky the pseudo-science behind Space Marines is, I don't think the idea of it giving them a lifespan ranging from a few centuries in some cases to effectively forever in others is too far off the wall.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Perhaps the dramatic biological alteration that Space Marines undergo simply affects different people to different degrees. Given how wonky the pseudo-science behind Space Marines is, I don't think the idea of it giving them a lifespan ranging from a few centuries in some cases to effectively forever in others is too far off the wall.

Personally, I'm somewhat opposed to the "effectively forever" idea (well ... maybe the Primarchs ... maybe), but you make a good point regarding the effect being different. There's so many factors that could influence it ... the recruit's own genes, the condition of the Chapter's machinery, the correct application of knowledge ...
After all, it has been said that the process to create new Space Marines has become less scientific and more ritualized with every passing century, much like with technology everywhere in the Imperium. Could well affect the end result, if only by a small margin, but enough so to considerably (well, in comparison) lower life expectancy.

Perhaps that could even mean that Marines who were created earlier are around longer than contemporary results - just that there aren't many of them left due to combat losses!

Well, just as an idea, anyways.

Space marine longevity is one of those things that isn't solidly established in 'canon'. I've read several novels where older SMs were described in ways one would describe an older(but very fit) [normal] human, indicating that marines age, just a lot better than normal humans do.

I recall one of the Space Wolf books saying something along the lines of, " it was rare for a wolf lord to die on his back", meaning that they mostly get killed in battle, but sometimes die of old age I GUESS. It's also William King, and I feel like he doesn't know anything about space marines in general. Dan Abnett, whose Prospero Burns inspired my wolves, stated through Garviel Loken the duality of being immortal and yet destined to die. That was said during the Great Crusade when Space Marines were still relatively new, and perhaps through time it was actually proven wrong. Obviously they live for a long time, but forever? Questionable...

a death in battle seems nice but a dreadnaught would make me go crazy. and living for thousands of years? it would get kinda boring

So are traitor marines 10k years old? Or not really old at all because they spend most of their time in the eye of terror? Also how do they replenish their numbers as they don't have the ability to recruit new members?

They havne't madeanything definite. Prior to the Horus Hersesy ovels it seemed that Space Marines and even Primarchs were just long lived (Marines centuries, Primarchs millenia.) The first half dozen or so HH novels (mostly) infferred Marines are immortal but it is kinda up in the air. For example I'm reading Deliverance Lost and Corax makes it clear in his own thoughts that he thinks he may only live hundreds or thousands of years. He doesnt know, and the Marines dont know for sure or not if they are immortal. Modern day marines *don't* seem to be immortal, although so many die of other means than old age (It's not appropriately space Marine-like) that we don't know for sure. and the dude in Salamanders isnt a definite thing - they make it up in the air whether or not him lasting as long as he did was normal or due to some other factor - there's alot of wiggle room in there (and even if he did he was pretty atrophied anyhow.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:They havne't madeanything definite. Prior to the Horus Hersesy ovels it seemed that Space Marines and even Primarchs were just long lived (Marines centuries, Primarchs millenia.) The first half dozen or so HH novels (mostly) infferred Marines are immortal but it is kinda up in the air. For example I'm reading Deliverance Lost and Corax makes it clear in his own thoughts that he thinks he may only live hundreds or thousands of years. He doesnt know, and the Marines dont know for sure or not if they are immortal. Modern day marines *don't* seem to be immortal, although so many die of other means than old age (It's not appropriately space Marine-like) that we don't know for sure. and the dude in Salamanders isnt a definite thing - they make it up in the air whether or not him lasting as long as he did was normal or due to some other factor - there's alot of wiggle room in there (and even if he did he was pretty atrophied anyhow.)

see I disagree. there is no wiggle room, you are either immortal, or you're not.

either you CAN die (by any means, age, combat, sickness) or you cannot.

Space Marines are definitely NOT immortal. just REALLY hard to kill. (in theory)

Rimmy wrote:

see I disagree. there is no wiggle room, you are either immortal, or you're not.

either you CAN die (by any means, age, combat, sickness) or you cannot.

Space Marines are definitely NOT immortal. just REALLY hard to kill. (in theory)

The word "immortal" is commonly used to indicate a creature that does not die of old age and related illnesses. Literally, yes, it means someone who doesn't die of ANYTHING, but it's commonly used to mean "does not die of natural causes".

My position is that Space Marines are biologically immortal; that is, so long as they get sufficient food, exercise, and nutrients, their bodies will repair themselves as fast as they deteriorate. That would mean that a Space Marine would never die of "old age", but they can still be killed in battle, die of sufficiently virulent diseases/poisons, etc. Since Space Marines are, well, super-soldiers, and fighting more or less constantly, the odds of one of them living to an extremely old age would be very, very slight.

In addition, the biological modifications involved in becoming a Space Marine probably affect different people differently. Perhaps some of them, or most of them, DON'T have biological immortality; if the gene-seed is weakened or slightly mutated, it probably won't work exactly right. So some Space Marines could live forever, while others might just 'wear out' after a few centuries.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The word "immortal" is commonly used to indicate a creature that does not die of old age and related illnesses. Literally, yes, it means someone who doesn't die of ANYTHING, but it's commonly used to mean "does not die of natural causes".

Well, there you go then - for the Space Marine Codex specifically uses the word "mortal" when referring to them.

It's just a ton of Space Marine novels and FFG's Deathwatch RPG who claims the opposite. Deviating interpretations, as usual.

Connor MacLeod wrote:They havne't madeanything definite. Prior to the Horus Hersesy ovels it seemed that Space Marines and even Primarchs were just long lived (Marines centuries, Primarchs millenia.)

You are mistaken. The Horus Heresy took place slightly more than 200 years after the Primarchs and Space Marines were created.

My money is on that they're biologically immortal.

Lynata wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:The word "immortal" is commonly used to indicate a creature that does not die of old age and related illnesses. Literally, yes, it means someone who doesn't die of ANYTHING, but it's commonly used to mean "does not die of natural causes".

Well, there you go then - for the Space Marine Codex specifically uses the word "mortal" when referring to them.

It's just a ton of Space Marine novels and FFG's Deathwatch RPG who claims the opposite. Deviating interpretations, as usual.

Fair enough. Personally, I think the question has been left vague; The Space Marine codex seems to use 'mortal', at least to my reading, because it's shorter than 'humanity and associated, human-like races, as opposed to the Eldar or Daemons'. There's nothing particularly out-there about biological immortality, honestly; aging is the thing that, biologically speaking, makes very little sense. Individual cells die and are shed all the time, yes, but there's no particular reason that an entire organism should deteriorate, absent trauma, and in fact some species that we know of today don't.

But, of course, there's also no particular reason to engineer biological immortality into Space Marines. Not like they aren't 99% certain to die inside of a few centuries at most anyway.

Lynata wrote:No confusion, it just seems to be a popular theme amongst licensed products. I've long since noticed a trend that Space Marines are made "more awesome" over there than in GW's material, likely to increase interest with the fanbase, or perhaps because they are written by fans.

I've only seen the "immortal" bit in FFG's RPG so far, but reading about these HH books I made the connection.

I should point out that within the Horus Heresy novels, while some Marines certainly believe they are immortal, due to their confirmed longevity and the fact that at that point no Marine had died of old age, it is never confirmed, and indeed, Captain Loken, protagonist of the first three Horus Heresy books, directly addresses the topic when talking with a human. His answer? "Sh!t son I don't know." He says that it is possible, but thus far no Marine has ever really lived long enough to show very many signs of aging.

I should point out that studio material does address this topic: The Grey Knights codex mentions ancient Grey Knights Librarians who have grown too old and infirm to go campaigning with their brothers, and guard the secret tomes and stuff of Titan.

So Space Marines seem to age, just very slowly, and no definite lifespan is given.

The Primarchs are, IMO, probably completely immortal though.

Void__Dragon wrote:I should point out that studio material does address this topic: The Grey Knights codex mentions ancient Grey Knights Librarians who have grown too old and infirm to go campaigning with their brothers, and guard the secret tomes and stuff of Titan.

Hum, that's some valuable input for this thread, thanks!

In the original 3 HH novels Loken often speaks of, out loud or in his mind, about how the Adeptus Astartes are, as far as anyone knows, immortal.

My personally theory is that the Space Marines of the Heresy were significantly better than those of the current time in the canon. I can't find the exact quotes but I can look them up later if I have time. It is alluded to that the visions various Primarchs and main characters have of the future show a world populated by "lesser" marines. Not sure if this means current Astartes would be "mortal" but Dante would seem to suggest otherwise.

OverwatchCNC wrote:In the original first 3 HH novels Loken often speaks of, out loud or in his mind, about how the Adeptus Astartes are, as far as anyone knows, immortal.

My personally theory is that the Space Marines of the Heresy were significantly better than those of the current time in the canon. I can't find the exact quotes but I can look them up later if I have time. It is alluded to that the visions various Primarchs and main characters have of the future show a world populated by "lesser" marines. Not sure if this means current Astartes would be "mortal" but Dante would seem to suggest otherwise.

That would go along with the theme of everything being spiffing and fantastic in 30k and everything gakky and grimdark in 40k, as well as alluding to the degeneration of the gene-seed (as well as some of the first Space Marines presumably learning and training with their Primarchs, possibly) - but if we go by that, then Chaos Space Marines, specifically the traitor legions, should be faaaar better than loyalist Space Marines in every way, not only because of their obvious experience over ten thousand years, but their pedigree as well, and we don't really see much of that at all.

Something to note about 30k characters - especially ones like Loken - is how naive they can be about such things. Space Marines had barely been around for a few centuries by then - they'd gone from the darkness of knowing nothing about the galaxy straight into the splendour and glory of the Great Crusade. They were essentially a new species in its youth, they had all the energy in the world and felt that they'd never tire or run out of steam. They had not lived long enough to reach their limitations, and they could be a little idealistic at times - hell, the Great Crusade was in itself idealistic. I'm not sure how far to take what they say on the matter.

Plus it's BL, we're flirting between canon and artistic license at the best of times.

OverwatchCNC wrote:In the original 3 HH novels Loken often speaks of, out loud or in his mind, about how the Adeptus Astartes are, as far as anyone knows, immortal.

My personally theory is that the Space Marines of the Heresy were significantly better than those of the current time in the canon.

Alternatively, the oldest Space Marines at the time were only 200 years old and they just didn't know any better.

DarknessEternal wrote:Alternatively, the oldest Space Marines at the time were only 200 years old and they just didn't know any better.

Basically this.

And we still don't. The job title of "Space Marine" makes it really, really hard to get any decent insurance coverage without having to tithe the GDP of entire sub-sectors in premiums. I don't think the vast majority of Space Marines get the opportunity to test out the "biological immortality" theory, especially since a fair number of them seem prone to wandering about on battlefields without a fething helmet on.

CrashCanuck wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:In one of the Salamander's novels they find Space Marine Sargent thats been hidden underground so long that his armor has rusted around him and he cant move. My understanding is that they can live for ridiculously long times if they are maintained, but even if not they wont usually just die. So a lifespan of a few thousands years sounds about right to me.

I just read that novel a month ago and yes, they do find an ancient Salamander space marine that had been sitting in one place since Vulkan was last there (which would be thousands of years ago from M41). He does die but that is due to complications from his muscles becoming atrophied (sitting in one place for a millenia or two will do that to anyone) and because he could let himself die since his duty was complete (he was to sit watch until found by the remaining Salamanders chapter)

You're a little off here. That marine didn't die due to atrophied muscles. He died because an apothecary administered the Emperor's Peace to him and extracted his geneseed.

They had neither the tools nor time in order to properly get that marine out. Therefore they had a choice: leave him behind or take his geneseed go back to the chapter. The only appropriate thing to do was to let the marine pass on as his duty was done.

I'd imagine for a lot of Chapters, the aging Space Marines who can no longer fight take administrative jobs. This has been hinted at in different kinds of fluff. I seem to remember in the old days of 2nd Edition fluff, Marines were described as living for a few hundred years on average, but I'm far too disinterested to search through it for that source.

Their bodies probably age significantly slower than humans, and with the invention of "rejuvenat" treatments in the fluff to allow mortal human Special Characters to live longer, this concept just sorta carried over to the Space Marines so they'd stay proportionally more awesome, lol. And thus, functionally immortal Space Marines came to be.