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cowmonaut wrote:
Okay, now you just aren't thinking at all.

Jump Infantry: Move 12", ignore difficult terrain unless starting/finishing your move in it. Can Run. Can Assault 6".
Jetbike: Move 12", ignore difficult terrain unless starting/finishing your move in it. Can't Run. Can TurboBoost. Can Assault 6".

That's the only difference. If Destroyers could move 24" they'd be a little broken. Otherwise they function the same. And I'm not going to bother arguing the physics of hovercraft technology and vectored thrust engines. If you really care for why there is a dangerous terrain test for difficult terrain, do the research yourself and see its actually got some basis in fact.

But they're not mounted on "hovercraft." If they were hovercraft there would be downward thrust to combat gravity. They are on anti-gravity platforms meaning they're movement and the ground there over are unrelated. Them running doesn't make sense. Them turbo boosting does.
And how would the be broken if they could turbo boost? Are you saying Tomb blades are broken, they can turbo boost and are fairly cheap with twin linked tesla carbines or Gauss blasters. I don't really see much of a difference between the two . They also have almost identical stats yet destroyers are 20 points more and aren't jet bikes and I really doubt one additional shot and AP being better by one point is worth 20 points.

cowmonaut wrote:

NL_Cirrus wrote:But that in and of itself doesn't make sense (with the exception of Obyron vs. Khan as we don't know what his weapon was) as most high ranking SM carry power weapons, And that would be more like, Storm lord fails to block, slice, Storm lord dead. I mean really what are they using to move their limbs? Servos from 21st century earth? You'd think the masters of physics could come up with something a little better than that.

And lets talk theoretically cybernetic science. The Necrontyr had frail, weak bodies. They possible/probably did not have a quick response time in those bodies. Tau for example are not quick, nor are Orks unless they are charging. The entire backstory of the Necrons is about how the transfer into metal bodies was not the deal they had envisioned it to be. Their bodies may indeed be capable of reacting much faster, but their brains are only processing things at speeds they are comfortable with.

This is especially true for the Necron Warriors who were the civilians of the Necrontyr. Your average joe is not going to just magically adjust his way of thinking just because he's been transformed into a construct.

Brains? they didn't transfer their brains. That would be a bad, no a terrible Idea as flesh and blood is nowhere near as resilient as metal and machinery. They transferred their consciousnesses. which means that their movement speed and reaction speed is only limited by how they were constructed both mechanically speaking and data processing speaking, and sense the codex clearly states they could think much faster it must mean they're limbs are sluggish.

cowmonaut wrote:

NL_Cirrus wrote: I'm sorry i didn't differentiate between fluff and rules I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.
Fluff wise before they didn't need teleporters that spanned the whole galaxy their ships were so fast it didn't matter.

Which also gives them an incredibly insane advantage in a story about Galactic scale warfare. The tech that would allow you to have inertia-less drives would also allow you to hurl asteroids at such velocities as to wipe out planets before defense systems can react. It was a stupid-broken idea to begin with and they finally realized that and are taking it out. They still want them to be everywhere, so they use teleportation to explain it. No planet destroying loop holes that would allow them to run over everything but maybe the Tyranids.

In short, it makes for a better story.

Now who is not thinking. If the Necrons attacked a planet in the old codex it wasn't to conquer or destroy it, it was to get something they wanted, whatever that may be. And if they did want to destroy a planet they'd simply send an actual battle fleet and there's not a whole lot anybody could do to stop them. Also if you do try that crazy asteroid thing they you'd be wasting a lot of resources like; the drive to propel the thing, the systems generating the power for the drives, you'd need to find a asteroid field close enough to the world that it would be easy to hit (and when dealing with astronomical distances there's no 'easy to hit') but not so close that they'd detect your presence, you'd also need some thing to fly the rock, if you just pointed it at the planet and sent it off you would miss. It would be far easier just to use the ships you have to attack the planet rather than shooting asteroids at it.

Now if you really want to argue 'its not fair that Necrons had super weapons so its good its gone' then I have two words for you. 'celestial' 'orrery'

Why? Because Mat Ward that's why.

Sasori wrote:
In a sense. I'm saying, that balance-wise that's how the devs ruled it, and it is as close to being as logical as can be. -Loki's- explination makes a lot of sense as well.

I don't see it that way but i guess we'll just need to agree to disagree.(about the logicality of it not that the devs wrote it that way, just to be clear.)

I don't quite understand where we are going with this now.

You know what, me neither.

The Nightscythe mentions that it can teleport from "Far away Tomb Worlds"
Not sure where your going with that

RP got quite a buff. The fact is, it required a Res Orb nearby to make WBB, from things like Power Weapons, or weapons that were double the T. With the amount of strength 8+ spam you see in most armies, that Res Orb would be critical. You could also only have 2. RP now works all the time, without needing a Res orb to babysit them. In my opinion, this is much better.
I wouldn't call it a buff, more like a change. Not really more or less powerful just different. In situations with a lot of S8 RP would be better, but if your enemy has anything less WBB is better. In CC it once again depends on the situation, If they have lots of S8 or PW attacks then RP is probably better if they just have normal S7 or less attacks then WBB is better especially if they make you fall back as a nearby squad could absorb the downed Necrons but if you had RP the downed necrons just die. Although with and orb the only difference is Necrons that died from DeathorGlory don't come back. In the end for me the real tie breaker is that Old'cron Rez orb could effect multiple squads.

Only having two rez orbs is some what mitigated by the fact you could easy cover four units with one orb, more if you got creative. where as with the new codex its one squad per orb and that's it.

Well, you don't have to take Zahn. You can take an Overlord instead, and attach him to the unit that Obyron is in. It's more expensive than the Old Combo, but it's significantly stronger.
That could work, but you couldn't make obyron swap units to give your army more over all mobility as well as keeping them out of combat. What I'm trying to say is any way you slice it its just not as good.

That's pretty unusual. Well, TH/SS are very brutal in close combat, and they swing last.

I'll be sure to stay clear of them then ,if I ever encounter them that is.

I'll go ahead an explain it to you though. Strength 8, is probably the most common type of Anti-tank weapon spammed right now. It takes a 6 to pen a QS Vehicle. That's not very good odds after "To Hit" rolls. When a QS Vehicle gets penned, it sucks, but it can generally withstand a lot of firepower. When you have 6+ of these, It becomes really tough to down them all. Living metal helps with all the Glancing hits it can get as well. Ignoring Shaken on a 2+ and stunned on a 4+ is very good. Not as good as fortitude, but still VERY good.

The QS sound like they are useful, more so if more than our open topped vehicles had them, but over all fairly good. Now if only the monolith had QS, just kidding that would be broken, and yet so awsome.
Thanks for the explanation/elaboration.

EDIT: Missed one

I don't see how any of the old C'tan fluff could still be applicable. Every thing after the war in heaven is invalid. Since the new codex said the C'tan contacted the Necrons that invalidates their origin stories. The only thing left is that the C'tan kicked the old one's butt, but thats in the new 'dex as well.

Well, it states in the codex that many shards are still unaccounted for. This gives them the leeway, that everything that has been done since the War in heaven, is done by a Shard. So a good chunk of the fluff is quite valid.

For some reason I find it hard too believe that shards, the same kind of which are used as little more than attack dogs by the necrons, are capable of doing those things, especially since the ones used by the necrons are barely even sentient. That and any shard left with enough sense to do those things would probably be reassembling itself for revenge on the necrons rather than going around and messing with people or fighting.

NL_Cirrus wrote:But they're not mounted on "hovercraft." If they were hovercraft there would be downward thrust to combat gravity. They are on anti-gravity platforms meaning they're movement and the ground there over are unrelated. Them running doesn't make sense. Them turbo boosting does.

Tau Devilfish are anti-grav vehicles. They're also slow.

Destroyers being anti-grav has no bearing on how the designer wanted them to play. He obviously thought Turbo Boosting was out of character for Destroyers. I can see why - they're not meant to zoom around the battlefield at breakneck speeds. While they're faster than regular Necrons, they're not fast enough to justify turbo boosting.

As was pointed out, the single difference between jump infantry and jetbikes movement types is jetbikes can turbo boost. Stop thinking about the name 'jump infantry'. It doesn't matter. What matters is the movement profile. They're exactly the same as a jetbike without the ability to kick in the nitrous. This makes sense.

Consider the above example. Tau Devilfish are skimmers. Their movement is as slow as a regular old Rhino. A Dark Eldar Raider is a fast skimmer. It can move double what a Devilfish can. Sure, the Raider is smaller and lighter, but you yourself said that anti-grav should make this irrelevant. The Devilfish also has two stonking great engines on it almost half the size of an entire Raider each. Them not being as fast as a Raider makes no logcal sense. Stop trying to apply logic to abstracted game mechanics and balance.

The ability to run doesn't make sense? Tyranid Gargoyles can 'run'. Tyranid Gargoyles are also jump infantry. They have no legs. They have no limbs that would give them the ability to move on the ground - even their hands are fused into their Fleshborer. Running simply represents them continuing to flap their wings in the shooting phase rather than shooting their Fleshborer. The ability for a Destroyer to 'run' simply represents him forgoing his chance to shoot and move a little more.

You need to start thinking in abstract terms with rules. If you nitpick every little detail because it doesn't 'realistically fit' what you would consider proper rules, you'll never enjoy 40k.

NL_Cirrus wrote:They also have almost identical stats yet destroyers are 20 points more and aren't jet bikes and I really doubt one additional shot and AP being better by one point is worth 20 points.

Don't consider points in a vacuum. Consider the army they're in as well. Necrons aren't meant to be fast, so anything moving faster than what the designer considered the norm is going to pay a premium for that movement boost.

There's one more difference. Jump Infantry can get to the second floor of ruins. Jet Bikes can't.

Which, again, suits how Destroyers play, and not how Jetbikes play.

NL_Cirrus wrote:But they're not mounted on "hovercraft." If they were hovercraft there would be downward thrust to combat gravity. They are on anti-gravity platforms meaning they're movement and the ground there over are unrelated. Them running doesn't make sense. Them turbo boosting does.

Tau Devilfish are anti-grav vehicles. They're also slow.

I don't see your point.

Destroyers being anti-grav has no bearing on how the designer wanted them to play. He obviously thought Turbo Boosting was out of character for Destroyers. I can see why - they're not meant to zoom around the battlefield at breakneck speeds. While they're faster than regular Necrons, they're not fast enough to justify turbo boosting.

I don't see how turbo boosting would be 'out of character'. The only reason it appears that way is because they are Jump infantry. In their little fluff section the only thing it really says about them is that they want to kill every thing, so by going with the written fluff they should be the best killing machines possible, which would be jet bikes. Once agin the only referance for speed we've got for their movement is their rules so saying that they should be slower is nonsensical because going by written fluff there is nothing on speed.

As was pointed out, the single differences between jump infantry and jetbikes movement types is jetbikes can turbo boost and jump infantry can choose to walk. Stop thinking about the name 'jump infantry'. It doesn't matter. What matters is the movement profile. They're exactly the same as a jetbike without the ability to kick in the nitrous but they can walk. This makes sense.

fixed that for you

Consider the above example. Tau Devilfish are skimmers. Their movement is as slow as a regular old Rhino. A Dark Eldar Raider is a fast skimmer. It can move double what a Devilfish can. Sure, the Raider is smaller and lighter, but you yourself said that anti-grav should make this irrelevant. The Devilfish also has two stonking great engines on it almost half the size of an entire Raider each. Them not being as fast as a Raider makes no logcal sense. Stop trying to apply logic to abstracted game mechanics and balance.

With the entire thing being much larger then a raider and needing to carry cargo and having more armor the devil fish being slower makes sense. My point with anti-gravity was that the terrain that they move over makes no difference.
If game mechanics follow no logic or sense then how is the game going to be fun and whats the point of the model when we could all just use bases, and why is the fluff written to explain how the mechanics make sense.

The ability to run doesn't make sense? Tyranid Gargoyles can 'run'. Tyranid Gargoyles are also jump infantry. They have no legs. They have no limbs that would give them the ability to move on the ground - even their hands are fused into their Fleshborer. Running simply represents them continuing to flap their wings in the shooting phase rather than shooting their Fleshborer. The ability for a Destroyer to 'run' simply represents him forgoing his chance to shoot and move a little more.

But if they fly then you move just as or faster than running and get to fire your weapon -if the type permits- and if they walk/run they make difficult terrain tests which doesn't make sense as they never touch the ground. There is no reason other than the arbitrary judgment of the codex writer, and the greed of GW, that could logicly place the destroyers in the jump infantry catagory.
As for gargoyles, I'm not a tyranid player so I don't know much about them. but it seems like they don't have a realistic category as jump infantry doesn't make sense and jetbikes don't either. Like I said in one of my previous posts mabe they should make a hover of fly infantry category for things like that.

You need to start thinking in abstract terms with rules. If you nitpick every little detail because it doesn't 'realistically fit' what you would consider proper rules, you'll never enjoy 40k.

I enjoyed it just fine until Ward rewrote the Necron codex.

NL_Cirrus wrote:They also have almost identical stats yet destroyers are 20 points more and aren't jet bikes and I really doubt one additional shot and AP being better by one point is worth 20 points.

Don't consider points in a vacuum. Consider the army they're in as well. Necrons aren't meant to be fast, so anything moving faster than what the designer considered the norm is going to pay a premium for that movement boost.

You do realize the model that is 20 points cheaper than the destroyer that I'm referencing IS A JET BIKE, its called the tomb blade, and I don't see any speed "premium" on it.

Chrysis wrote:There's one more difference. Jump Infantry can get to the second floor of ruins. Jet Bikes can't.

Where did you see that? I can't find any thing that restricts their vertical moment.

NL_Cirrus wrote:There is no reason other than the arbitrary judgment of the codex writer, and the greed of GW

I'm done. Now you're not arguing, you're trolling.

Thanks Loki. I've been going back and forth with a Necron playing friend ever since the new Codex dropped, and you've given me several good points to present to him. For what it's worth, I'm totally digging on the new fluff. And the new rules.

Unless I'm mistaken trolling is when some one makes a post for no other reason then to start a fight.

If you find that statment offensive then I am sorry and will remove it, but if not then it was not my intention to provoke a fight and if that statement will then I will remove it, if not then I don't see how I'm "trolling."

NL_Cirrus wrote:

Chrysis wrote:There's one more difference. Jump Infantry can get to the second floor of ruins. Jet Bikes can't.

Where did you see that? I can't find any thing that restricts their vertical moment.

I don't have the book on hand to check the exact wording at this point, but the rules for ruins state that Infantry and Jump Infantry can move up and down in ruins. It doesn't say anyone else can, ergo they can't.

Chrysis wrote:

NL_Cirrus wrote:

Chrysis wrote:There's one more difference. Jump Infantry can get to the second floor of ruins. Jet Bikes can't.

Where did you see that? I can't find any thing that restricts their vertical moment.

I don't have the book on hand to check the exact wording at this point, but the rules for ruins state that Infantry and Jump Infantry can move up and down in ruins. It doesn't say anyone else can, ergo they can't.

40k rule book 5edition pg 83 1st paragraph wrote:
MOVING WITHIN RUINS
Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the
upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump
infantry, jet bikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may
move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the
models can physically be places there. Other units my
move on the ground level of the ruin.

There from the book.
Although later on it does say that infantry, jump infantry, and walkers must roll a three or higher to mover up or down a level, so your mistake is understandable.

edit 1: pg # and such
edit 2: fixed quote box

And that's why I generally prefer to be able to look at the books before posting things. I knew bikes couldn't, and guessed that as a subset of bikes jetbikes couldn't as well.

The fun one is that Raveners can't go up stairs, and for a while after the release of 5th edition neither could Hormagaunts.

lol

guardsmen1 wrote: OH NO! tyranids are coming! what'll we do, what'll we do what'll we DO!

guardsman2 wrote: quick run up the stairs the hormagaunts can't climb stairs!

a few hours later

Hormaguant wrote: rargeracklashnagera

rough translation "curse you stairs I'm HUNGERY!!!!!"