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and I'm left confused and wondering by several things (both fluff wise and rules wise.)

First, Why are Destroyers jump infantry? Did I miss something and the now have the ability to grow legs and run around? Do they have sticks coming off the side so warriors can carry them around or something?
Same thing for wraiths.

Second, Why is the only difference between Immortals and Warriors an armor save and weapons(weapons that aren't really that different anymore at that)? And why are Immortals troops in the first place?

Thirdly, Why is the entire Necron army (with the exception of the C'tan shards, which aren't really Necrons) Initiative 2, especially when the fluff specifically says they can think faster and more clearly as robots? And wraith I2? their supposed to be repair/defender bots but the Necrontyr made them slower in response time than humans? I just don't get it.

Also why do the 'crons now have all of these machines that are piloted by Necron Warriors. Seriously why not just imbue the Machines directly with the consciousness of the people or thing thats going to be flying/driving it. Then it'll be harder to kill as you cant just snipe the pilot in the head. The Silons of Battlestar Galactica figured that out why can't the crons?

Why are the C'tan so.....blah. They went from having well over half a codex about them to less than five paragraphs. The C'tan were one of my favorite parts about the old 'crons. They were unique. Something nobody else had. BUT NOPE can't have variation in 40k everyone must be an empire trying to get the galaxy for whatever reason (well a good majority at least.)

And why did the 'crons go from hyper advanced tech to just plain robots in egyptian robes? I mean
Had: really fast ships, warriors that could come back after being liquified, nigh on indestructible armor, awsome teleportation, weapons that could cut through anything, weapons with a range longer than 24" that weren't ordinance.
Have: Webway, warriors that piece themselves together more live the golden army from hellboy than anything really impressive, Ok armor, No "cut through anything" weapons, all short range guns.

And is there really any point in having lynch guard, Praetorians, and Flayed Ones, if they're just going to get stomped into the groung before they can do anything?

Why don't they have any vehicles with AV higher than 11 that isn't the monolith?

Now don't get me wrong there are some things I like about the new'crons. Such as their new found ability to Falcon Punch people, and the tesla weapons,but making a thread to say how much you like something is rather pointless.

So there are the questions i can find no good explanation for, any one care to see if they can?

I think almost every single question can be answered by; "because the rules says so".

Don't overthink it. This is how GW envision Necrons.
If you feel something should be different, there is an entire sub-forum devoted to that (Proposed Rules).

It sounds like you simply want everything bigger, better and faster. And it doesn't put you in the best of light.

Ward hated the C'tan and wanted to make the Necrons from ancient Lovecraftian Space Terrors into a misunderstood but noble Protoss-like race that is seeking to reclaim its honor. To do this, he had to push the C'tan as far back into a corner as possible so basically made it so they can never play a part in the story again, they exist purely as a tabletop unit.

and I'm left confused and wondering by several things (both fluff wise and rules wise.)

First, Why are Destroyers jump infantry? Did I miss something and the now have the ability to grow legs and run around? Do they have sticks coming off the side so warriors can carry them around or something?
Same thing for wraiths.

Because they move as Jump Infantry? Are you aruging that because they don't have legs, they should be Jetbikes? Seems silly to me.

Second, Why is the only difference between Immortals and Warriors an armor save and weapons(weapons that aren't really that different anymore at that)? And why are Immortals troops in the first place?

Are you telling me Tesla Carbines, and Gauss Flayers arn't really that diffrent? What's wrong with them both being troops? I'm really not understanding what you are complaining about here.

Thirdly, Why is the entire Necron army (with the exception of the C'tan shards, which aren't really Necrons) Initiative 2, especially when the fluff specifically says they can think faster and more clearly as robots? And wraith I2? their supposed to be repair/defender bots but the Necrontyr made them slower in response time than humans? I just don't get it.

If you read the fluff, in every battle, the Necron is slower than their opponent. Obyron vs Khan is a great example of this. Khan kept dealing Obyron blows, and Obyron was too slow to hit him, until he wore him down. Same thing with Imotekh and Helbrecht. It's just part of the flavor of the army.

Also why do the 'crons now have all of these machines that are piloted by Necron Warriors. Seriously why not just imbue the Machines directly with the consciousness of the people or thing thats going to be flying/driving it. Then it'll be harder to kill as you cant just snipe the pilot in the head. The Silons of Battlestar Galactica figured that out why can't the crons?

Likely because a lot of these weapons and machines, existed before the Bio-transferrence. Necrons themselves don't want to feel like robots, they want to act just like they were before the Bio-transffernce. Good examples of this, is the Overlord yelling out commands on his barge, when it's not needed. Keeping things like Pilots is a long the line of thinking.

Why are the C'tan so.....blah. They went from having well over half a codex about them to less than five paragraphs. The C'tan were one of my favorite parts about the old 'crons. They were unique. Something nobody else had. BUT NOPE can't have variation in 40k everyone must be an empire trying to get the galaxy for whatever reason (well a good majority at least.)

Because it's Codex: Necrons. Not Codex: C'tan and servants.

And why did the 'crons go from hyper advanced tech to just plain robots in egyptian robes? I mean
Had: really fast ships, warriors that could come back after being liquified, nigh on indestructible armor, awsome teleportation, weapons that could cut through anything, weapons with a range longer than 24" that weren't ordinance.
Have: Webway, warriors that piece themselves together more live the golden army from hellboy than anything really impressive, Ok armor, No "cut through anything" weapons, all short range guns.

This makes it look like you haven't read the fluff very closely. The only thing remotely right about this, is that the lost their Inertia-less drives. They still have Teleportation, weapons that can cut through everything, and weapons longer than 24' that aren't ordinance.

And is there really any point in having lynch guard, Praetorians, and Flayed Ones, if they're just going to get stomped into the groung before they can do anything?

Keep in mind they are T5, and have RP. It's harder than you may think to down a unit of Lychguard and Praetorians. Praetorians do suck though.

Why don't they have any vehicles with AV higher than 11 that isn't the monolith?

We have "Quantum Shielding" on all of the Open-topped Vehicles, which gives them AV 13 front and side until the first penetrating hit. The two closed topped AV 11 Vehicles are fast skimmers with Aerial Assault, and Supersonic. Both also carry a Twin-linked Tesla Destructor, with the Doomscythe getting the Death Ray in place of the MASSIVE transport capacity of the Night Scythe.

Now don't get me wrong there are some things I like about the new'crons. Such as their new found ability to Falcon Punch people, and the tesla weapons,but making a thread to say how much you like something is rather pointless.

No more pointless than a seemingly poorly researched evaluation of the codex.

So there are the questions i can find no good explanation for, any one care to see if they can?

Done.

I agree that the fluff for the C'Tan is now lame and I feel they were only written in because of their previous fanbase.

I2 for all the bots, well you can think fast but when your are rusty, well robot rust is worse than people rust.

Immortals as troops, well its nice to have a option for the slot.

The drop in armour is well worth it considering that a 500 point army isnt two troops and a lord anymore.

Im not a big fan of the current fluff but since Im in it for the table top and not the quality reading Im good with ignoring what they wrote and going with my thought of plastic dudes shooting space guns and rolling dice. I think my pocket protector is showing now.

Sasori wrote:

and I'm left confused and wondering by several things (both fluff wise and rules wise.)

First, Why are Destroyers jump infantry? Did I miss something and the now have the ability to grow legs and run around? Do they have sticks coming off the side so warriors can carry them around or something?
Same thing for wraiths.

Because they move as Jump Infantry? Are you aruging that because they don't have legs, they should be Jetbikes? Seems silly to me.

No, I'm arguing that since they are mounted on a highly maneuverable anti-gravity platform, and since the description of Jetbikes is highly maneuverable anti-gravity propelled mechanisms, that they should be jetbikes. As well as jump Infantry being infantry(requiring legs) with jump packs or other such mechanism. Destroyers NOT having legs couldn't be classified as infantry, and under no circumstances does it make sense for them to take difficult terrain tests as they NEVER touch the terrain until they are dead. It would be like making Eldar Jetbikes jump infantry.

Second, Why is the only difference between Immortals and Warriors an armor save and weapons(weapons that aren't really that different anymore at that)? And why are Immortals troops in the first place?

Are you telling me Tesla Carbines, and Gauss Flayers arn't really that diffrent? What's wrong with them both being troops? I'm really not understanding what you are complaining about here.

There default weapons are Gauss blaster which are basically Gauss flayers with +1S and -1AP, And the problem I have with them being troops is that they are ,by the definition of Elites given in the MAIN RULE BOOK, elites.

Thirdly, Why is the entire Necron army (with the exception of the C'tan shards, which aren't really Necrons) Initiative 2, especially when the fluff specifically says they can think faster and more clearly as robots? And wraith I2? their supposed to be repair/defender bots but the Necrontyr made them slower in response time than humans? I just don't get it.

If you read the fluff, in every battle, the Necron is slower than their opponent. Obyron vs Khan is a great example of this. Khan kept dealing Obyron blows, and Obyron was too slow to hit him, until he wore him down. Same thing with Imotekh and Helbrecht. It's just part of the flavor of the army.

But that in and of itself doesn't make sense (with the exception of Obyron vs. Khan as we don't know what his weapon was) as most high ranking SM carry power weapons, And that would be more like, Storm lord fails to block, slice, Storm lord dead. I mean really what are they using to move their limbs? Servos from 21st century earth? You'd think the masters of physics could come up with something a little better than that.

Also why do the 'crons now have all of these machines that are piloted by Necron Warriors. Seriously why not just imbue the Machines directly with the consciousness of the people or thing thats going to be flying/driving it. Then it'll be harder to kill as you cant just snipe the pilot in the head. The Silons of Battlestar Galactica figured that out why can't the crons?

Likely because a lot of these weapons and machines, existed before the Bio-transferrence. Necrons themselves don't want to feel like robots, they want to act just like they were before the Bio-transffernce. Good examples of this, is the Overlord yelling out commands on his barge, when it's not needed. Keeping things like Pilots is a long the line of thinking.

But at the time of the Bio-transferance they were being made into war machines so why would the Crypteks C'tan, or Lords care what their soon to be mindless servants though of their new form? Making them less efficient at there job so they can feel better is a stupid and wasteful act so why would all of these apparently super logical people do that?

Why are the C'tan so.....blah. They went from having well over half a codex about them to less than five paragraphs. The C'tan were one of my favorite parts about the old 'crons. They were unique. Something nobody else had. BUT NOPE can't have variation in 40k everyone must be an empire trying to get the galaxy for whatever reason (well a good majority at least.)

Because it's Codex: Necrons. Not Codex: C'tan and servants.

but seriously you'd think the most powerful beings in the 40k universe would get little more than. "C'tan came, C'tan made Necrons, C'tan kicked but, C'tan got their butts kicked,and enslaved."

And why did the 'crons go from hyper advanced tech to just plain robots in egyptian robes? I mean
Had: really fast ships, warriors that could come back after being liquified, nigh on indestructible armor, awsome teleportation, weapons that could cut through anything, weapons with a range longer than 24" that weren't ordinance.
Have: Webway, warriors that piece themselves together more live the golden army from hellboy than anything really impressive, Ok armor, No "cut through anything" weapons, all short range guns.

This makes it look like you haven't read the fluff very closely. The only thing remotely right about this, is that the lost their Inertia-less drives. They still have Teleportation, weapons that can cut through everything, and weapons longer than 24' that aren't ordinance.

Ok so they still have teleporters but they aren't awsome. Not being able to teleport out of close combat = NOT AWSOME.
Oh right you mean war scythes? hyper phase swords? Void blades? well your right they can cut through anything....except force fields, terminators, and Deamons.
OH SORRY, I forgot the tachyon arrow, which is one shot.

And is there really any point in having lynch guard, Praetorians, and Flayed Ones, if they're just going to get stomped into the ground before they can do anything?

Keep in mind they are T5, and have RP. It's harder than you may think to down a unit of Lychguard and Praetorians. Praetorians do suck though.

Still they are CC specialist units that go after every thing but PF and such.

Why don't they have any vehicles with AV higher than 11 that isn't the monolith?

We have "Quantum Shielding" on all of the Open-topped Vehicles, which gives them AV 13 front and side until the first penetrating hit. The two closed topped AV 11 Vehicles are fast skimmers with Aerial Assault, and Supersonic. Both also carry a Twin-linked Tesla Destructor, with the Doomscythe getting the Death Ray in place of the MASSIVE transport capacity of the Night Scythe.

I am well aware of quantum shielding and its only good till a penetration, then your screwed.

Now don't get me wrong there are some things I like about the new'crons. Such as their new found ability to Falcon Punch people, and the tesla weapons,but making a thread to say how much you like something is rather pointless.

No more pointless than a seemingly poorly researched evaluation of the codex.

And what would lead you to believe its poorly researched

NL_Cirrus wrote:

Sasori wrote:

and I'm left confused and wondering by several things (both fluff wise and rules wise.)

First, Why are Destroyers jump infantry? Did I miss something and the now have the ability to grow legs and run around? Do they have sticks coming off the side so warriors can carry them around or something?
Same thing for wraiths.

Because they move as Jump Infantry? Are you aruging that because they don't have legs, they should be Jetbikes? Seems silly to me.

No, I'm arguing that since they are mounted on a highly maneuverable anti-gravity platform, and since the description of Jetbikes is highly maneuverable anti-gravity propelled mechanisms, that they should be jetbikes. As well as jump Infantry being infantry(requiring legs) with jump packs or other such mechanism. Destroyers NOT having legs couldn't be classified as infantry, and under no circumstances does it make sense for them to take difficult terrain tests as they NEVER touch the terrain until they are dead. It would be like making Eldar Jetbikes jump infantry.

Jetbikes are also fast. Faster than jump infantry. So Destroyers and Wraiths, while using anti-grav to move, aren't meant to be as fast as a jetbike. So they're classed as jump infantry.

You're also getting too hung up on the word 'infantry' in there. It means nothing. it's just what they call that movement type. Destroyers and Wraiths fit the movement characteristics of jump infantry better than jetbikes, so they get classed as jump infantry for movement. It's pretty simple.

You must do more research. Active and passive killing. Writhing World Scape.

No, I'm arguing that since they are mounted on a highly maneuverable anti-gravity platform, and since the description of Jetbikes is highly maneuverable anti-gravity propelled mechanisms, that they should be jetbikes. As well as jump Infantry being infantry(requiring legs) with jump packs or other such mechanism. Destroyers NOT having legs couldn't be classified as infantry, and under no circumstances does it make sense for them to take difficult terrain tests as they NEVER touch the terrain until they are dead. It would be like making Eldar Jetbikes jump infantry.

Fluff /= Rules. They are given Jump Infantry classification, because that's what ruling they were given. That's the reason, pure as simple.

There default weapons are Gauss blaster which are basically Gauss flayers with +1S and -1AP, And the problem I have with them being troops is that they are ,by the definition of Elites given in the MAIN RULE BOOK, elites.

You can swap the Gauss Blaster for free. So, you can get a totally different weapon, for no additional cost that is nothing like the Gauss flayer. Your problem with them being troops, is that they should be elites, because the main rule book that came out, likely before they were even brainstorming the new codex, says they are? That's just absurd. They are Troops because it makes sense for them to be troops now. They were the Soldiers before the Biotransferrence, and they are the Soldiers now.

But that in and of itself doesn't make sense (with the exception of Obyron vs. Khan as we don't know what his weapon was) as most high ranking SM carry power weapons, And that would be more like, Storm lord fails to block, slice, Storm lord dead. I mean really what are they using to move their limbs? Servos from 21st century earth? You'd think the masters of physics could come up with something a little better than that.

If you read it, the Necrons have far more sophisticated Repair systems in the fluff, than in the tabletop. It talks about how some of the better bodies, seem to recover near instantly from any damage they suffer. The Sands of Fordris has warriors coming back from much worse than getting sliced with a power weapon. They are slow, and it's shown that their hyperlogical mind cannot keep up with their actual movements. Perhaps that's all Illmuinor Szeras could do with the knowledge the C'tan provided. Perhaps the Self Repair systems restrict movement.

But at the time of the Bio-transferance they were being made into war machines so why would the Crypteks C'tan, or Lords care what their soon to be mindless servants though of their new form? Making them less efficient at there job so they can feel better is a stupid and wasteful act so why would all of these apparently super logical people do that?

They are logical to an extent. They still have emotions, and the Silent King regretted deeply what he had done to his people. The Royarchs clearly wanted to still have servants, just ones that obeyed without question.

but seriously you'd think the most powerful beings in the 40k universe would get little more than. "C'tan came, C'tan made Necrons, C'tan kicked but, C'tan got their butts kicked,and enslaved."

Once again, the codex isn't about the C'tan. It's about the Necrons. The fact is, they were taking a large new direction with the Necrons, and clearly wanted to move away from the C'tan taking up so much focus in the new dex.

Ok so they still have teleporters but they aren't awsome. Not being able to teleport out of close combat = NOT AWSOME.
Oh right you mean war scythes? hyper phase swords? Void blades? well your right they can cut through anything....except force fields, terminators, and Deamons.
OH SORRY, I forgot the tachyon arrow, which is one shot.

Ok, for starters, you need to differentiate between when you are talking about fluff, and rules. Fluffwise, they have teleporters that can span parts of the Galaxy. Gamewise, The Monolith lost the ability to teleport units out of combat, but it gained a boardwide range, and the ability to port everything but Vehicles through it. The Veil of Darkness got weakened a bit, but the Ghostwalk mantle allows you to pull out of combat.

If you are referring to the "Cutting through Invul Saves" did you HONESTLY think they were going to keep that? Warscythes lost that, but they are now significantly better, against more enemies than they were before.

As far as weapons go, I'll list a few that don't have a 24' range.
Harp of Dissonance-Infinite
Heavy Gauss cannon-36
Eldritch Lance-36
Doomsday Cannon-72'

That's more than just the Taychon Arrow.

Still they are CC specialist units that go after every thing but PF and such.

Welcome to the new Necrons! Standard infantry, and a lot of elite infantry have a pretty tough time dealing with Lychguard. Between the T5 and 5+/4+ RP it is pretty tough to down them. The I2 is the price they pay for having such durability. There are a lot of things that can help mitigate this disadvantage, such as Mind Shackle Scarabs.

I don't see many people complaining about TH/SS termies. I mean, they are dedicated CC specialist units that swing even after Lychguard. Are they terrible?

I am well aware of quantum shielding and its only good till a penetration, then your screwed.

Well, this makes me think you haven't played any games with it. QS is very very good. The Durability between it+Living Metal makes it very hard to shutdown Necron Vehicles. Yeah, if they get penned, your vehicle is likely destroyed. That isn't exactly an easy thing to do. Some Armies have a really tough time with this, like Craftworld Eldar and Orks.

And what would lead you to believe its poorly researched

Because it was.

Once again, the codex isn't about the C'tan. It's about the Necrons. The fact is, they were taking a large new direction with the Necrons, and clearly wanted to move away from the C'tan taking up so much focus in the new dex.

Its still a bit much giving them such a tiny section of the codex when they were so integral to Necrons. By all accounts they shouldnt even be considered in the codex.

Its probably just awful codex writing.

That is a combination of having a desire to adjust the fluff to make C'tan less dominant, and a desire to still allow the models that people have bought to be fielded.

Im pretty sure the Necrontyr made a deal with the C'tan because of their short life span and weakness in their bodies as said:

Necrontyr tells that their lives were short and uncertain, their bodies blighted and consumed at an early age by the terrible cancers and other illnesses linked to the high levels of ionizing radiation given off by their sun. Necrontyr cities were built in anticipation of their inhabitants' early demise, as the living were only brief residents

so why would they want to be like that again.

Also I totally agree with all the OP comments about the necrons, newcrons suck so much now.

I still dont get how their technology is a downstep from what they had i mean:

The Necrons were once a powerful humanoid species called the Necrontyr. They were one of the earliest sentient races to evolve in the Milky Way Galaxy, and are millions of Terran years older than even the ancient Eldar

Seriously they should have always been over powered as a race even before been turned into machines and taking away alot of the technology and replacing it with designs like barges and such makes no sense I had thought the necrons technology was their own anyway just changed alittle by the C'tan not totally provided by them, necron codex why you no make sense?

But again all of this could have been avoided if they respected the necrons history and fluff instead of doing a star trek and saying screw all that, all that is now replaced!

Sasori wrote:

Why are the C'tan so.....blah. They went from having well over half a codex about them to less than five paragraphs. The C'tan were one of my favorite parts about the old 'crons. They were unique. Something nobody else had. BUT NOPE can't have variation in 40k everyone must be an empire trying to get the galaxy for whatever reason (well a good majority at least.)

Because it's Codex: Necrons. Not Codex: C'tan and servants.

I LOL'd. Nice.

Sasori wrote:
Fluff /= Rules. They are given Jump Infantry classification, because that's what ruling they were given. That's the reason, pure as simple.

Then why not make them jet bikes with out the turbo-boost ability, or give them special rules for being hover infantry or something. They make no sense as jump infantry. EX Destroyer goes to move in to a building, but rolled poorly on his difficult terrain test, wait difficult terrain test? he floats what could possibly happened? Did he hit his head on the ceiling. trip on a brick or fly into a wall? wait wouldn't that cause wounds, so wouldn't that make it dangerous not difficult?
I agree the fluff=/=rules (or in most cases it shouldn't, if it did SMs would always win in the end) but rules should = logical and sense

You can swap the Gauss Blaster for free. So, you can get a totally different weapon, for no additional cost that is nothing like the Gauss flayer. Your problem with them being troops, is that they should be elites, because the main rule book that came out, likely before they were even brainstorming the new codex, says they are? That's just absurd. They are Troops because it makes sense for them to be troops now. They were the Soldiers before the Biotransferrence, and they are the Soldiers now.

40k rule book wrote:Elite units are normally powerful but expensive. They are the best an army has to offer, but there are never enough of them. In some cases they will be specialists, while at other times they will be more experienced versions of the regular solders.

Hmm 'more experienced versions of regular solders' so like Immortals. warriors being the normal civilians and Immortals being the troops of the Necrons I'd say they would be far more experienced. And unless more than 50% of the necrontyr population was militarized I'd say there are far more warriors than Immortals. since they are the only thing the army had to offer I'd say they are the best. So the Immortals just fulfilled every prerequisite in the rule book for being elites. So either we should disregard the rule book, they should have different fluff, or they should be elites.

But that in and of itself doesn't make sense (with the exception of Obyron vs. Khan as we don't know what his weapon was) as most high ranking SM carry power weapons, And that would be more like, Storm lord fails to block, slice, Storm lord dead. I mean really what are they using to move their limbs? Servos from 21st century earth? You'd think the masters of physics could come up with something a little better than that.

If you read it, the Necrons have far more sophisticated Repair systems in the fluff, than in the tabletop. It talks about how some of the better bodies, seem to recover near instantly from any damage they suffer. The Sands of Fordris has warriors coming back from much worse than getting sliced with a power weapon. They are slow, and it's shown that their hyperlogical mind cannot keep up with their actual movements. Perhaps that's all Illmuinor Szeras could do with the knowledge the C'tan provided. Perhaps the Self Repair systems restrict movement.

So your suggesting the most Intelligent and innovative race in 40k is to technologically incompetent to make a self repair system that doesn't hinder movement? I know that they(even warriors) can come back from a power weapon hit but their taking PW hits like their nothing just shrugging off what should be cutting them in half

But at the time of the Bio-transferance they were being made into war machines so why would the Crypteks C'tan, or Lords care what their soon to be mindless servants though of their new form? Making them less efficient at there job so they can feel better is a stupid and wasteful act so why would all of these apparently super logical people do that?

They are logical to an extent. They still have emotions, and the Silent King regretted deeply what he had done to his people. The Royarchs clearly wanted to still have servants, just ones that obeyed without question.

but seriously you'd think the most powerful beings in the 40k universe would get little more than. "C'tan came, C'tan made Necrons, C'tan kicked but, C'tan got their butts kicked,and enslaved."

Once again, the codex isn't about the C'tan. It's about the Necrons. The fact is, they were taking a large new direction with the Necrons, and clearly wanted to move away from the C'tan taking up so much focus in the new dex.

And yet still you CAN'T have necrons with out the C'tan unless they're going to change that too. So making the most important event in the entire codex less then three paragraphs is stupid.

Ok so they still have teleporters but they aren't awsome. Not being able to teleport out of close combat = NOT AWSOME.
Oh right you mean war scythes? hyper phase swords? Void blades? well your right they can cut through anything....except force fields, terminators, and Deamons.
OH SORRY, I forgot the tachyon arrow, which is one shot.

Ok, for starters, you need to differentiate between when you are talking about fluff, and rules. Fluffwise, they have teleporters that can span parts of the Galaxy. Gamewise, The Monolith lost the ability to teleport units out of combat, but it gained a boardwide range, and the ability to port everything but Vehicles through it. The Veil of Darkness got weakened a bit, but the Ghostwalk mantle allows you to pull out of combat.

If you are referring to the "Cutting through Invul Saves" did you HONESTLY think they were going to keep that? Warscythes lost that, but they are now significantly better, against more enemies than they were before.
As far as weapons go, I'll list a few that don't have a 24' range.
Harp of Dissonance-Infinite
Heavy Gauss cannon-36
Eldritch Lance-36
Doomsday Cannon-72'

That's more than just the Taychon Arrow.

I'm sorry i didn't differentiate between fluff and rules I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.
Fluff wise before they didn't need teleporters that spanned the whole galaxy their ships were so fast it didn't matter. Rules wise, the 'lith may have gained longer range but it doesn't let you re-roll RP. As for the Ghost walk Mantel, can you really even count that, Only Obyron has it. so if you want it you have to take him.
Yes I honestly though they'd keep the war scythes the same. I thought 'Warscythes are a unique Necron weapon and they are really cool and different from what other people have, and it makes sense for them to have it' *sigh* foolish me thinking GW would keep a faction unique with weapons that make sense and are cool.
we've already said the D-day cannon. But ya I did miss the other two. Although I don't know why you said 'to name a few' put the tremor staff on that list and you've listed all of them. And if I may point out over half of those are wielded by HQs.

Still they are CC specialist units that go after every thing but PF and such.

Welcome to the new Necrons! Standard infantry, and a lot of elite infantry have a pretty tough time dealing with Lychguard. Between the T5 and 5+/4+ RP it is pretty tough to down them. The I2 is the price they pay for having such durability. There are a lot of things that can help mitigate this disadvantage, such as Mind Shackle Scarabs.

I don't see many people complaining about TH/SS termies. I mean, they are dedicated CC specialist units that swing even after Lychguard. Are they terrible?

I though the 40 points per model was the price for such durability.
As for TH/SS termies I wouldn't know as I am not a SM player.

I am well aware of quantum shielding and its only good till a penetration, then your screwed.

Well, this makes me think you haven't played any games with it. QS is very very good. The Durability between it+Living Metal makes it very hard to shutdown Necron Vehicles. Yeah, if they get penned, your vehicle is likely destroyed. That isn't exactly an easy thing to do. Some Armies have a really tough time with this, like Craftworld Eldar and Orks.

Your right I have never used QS in battle, because all I've got is the monolith, and I don't have the money to go and buy another $300+ of new models to make what I do have an effective army.

And what would lead you to believe its poorly researched

Because it was.

OK, so i missed the longer ranged weapons, my bad.

Then why not make them jet bikes with out the turbo-boost ability, or give them special rules for being hover infantry or something. They make no sense as jump infantry. EX Destroyer goes to move in to a building, but rolled poorly on his difficult terrain test, wait difficult terrain test? he floats what could possibly happened? Did he hit his head on the ceiling. trip on a brick or fly into a wall? wait wouldn't that cause wounds, so wouldn't that make it dangerous not difficult?
I agree the fluff=/=rules (or in most cases it shouldn't, if it did SMs would always win in the end) but rules should = logical and sense

Rules can only be made with logic and sense, as far as balance is concerned. The desginers clearly felt that Destroyers should be Jump Infantry, and that's as close to logical as it can be. -Loki- also pointed out earlier why being Jump Infantry makes sense as well

Hmm 'more experienced versions of regular solders' so like Immortals. warriors being the normal civilians and Immortals being the troops of the Necrons I'd say they would be far more experienced. And unless more than 50% of the necrontyr population was militarized I'd say there are far more warriors than Immortals. since they are the only thing the army had to offer I'd say they are the best. So the Immortals just fulfilled every prerequisite in the rule book for being elites. So either we should disregard the rule book, they should have different fluff, or they should be elites.

Once again, this is really striking me as silly argument. You think, that fluffwise they come off as sounding as elites, so they should be? That's once again, absurd. I mean, honestly. Game balance wise, they are perfect, and make sense as troops. Fluff wise, they make sense as Troops as well, since they were always troops before bio-transferrence. Immortals were also only given "adequate" bodies, compared to the rest of the elites, which were given the superior bodies. (Besides Deathmarks, who of course have enough going for them to be considered elites) Immortals are also featured in almost every battle, as foot soldiers. Which is what they are. They are basic troops, that are slightly more durable than warriors, with better weapons. Nothing about them "Screams Elite" in their current incarnation. While Warriors are going to be much more common than Immortals, Immortals are going to be significantly more common than everything else in the Elite slot.

So your suggesting the most Intelligent and innovative race in 40k is to technologically incompetent to make a self repair system that doesn't hinder movement? I know that they(even warriors) can come back from a power weapon hit but their taking PW hits like their nothing just shrugging off what should be cutting them in half

Consiering it was the C'tan that gave the Necrons the knowledge for Bio-transferrence, and their new bodies, it is quite possible. Illuiminor Szeras only did what he could with the knowledge that he was given.
Ok, even when Necrons are getting cut in Half, or beheaded, or worse, They are still self-repairing from that is my point.

And yet still you CAN'T have necrons with out the C'tan unless they're going to change that too. So making the most important event in the entire codex less then three paragraphs is stupid.

Look, the writers decided to take a new direction with the Necrons, and focus more on them, than the C'tan. Could they have provided more information? Yes. Did they need to? No, I don't think so. I think what we have, is sufficient enough to set the backstory for them. The focus needed to be on the current Necrons, not their past. You always have the Old codex for more fluff on the War on heavens, if you want. It's not like the new fluff invalidates everything about it.

I'm sorry i didn't differentiate between fluff and rules I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.
Fluff wise before they didn't need teleporters that spanned the whole galaxy their ships were so fast it didn't matter. Rules wise, the 'lith may have gained longer range but it doesn't let you re-roll RP. As for the Ghost walk Mantel, can you really even count that, Only Obyron has it. so if you want it you have to take him.
Yes I honestly though they'd keep the war scythes the same. I thought 'Warscythes are a unique Necron weapon and they are really cool and different from what other people have, and it makes sense for them to have it' *sigh* foolish me thinking GW would keep a faction unique with weapons that make sense and are cool.
we've already said the D-day cannon. But ya I did miss the other two. Although I don't know why you said 'to name a few' put the tremor staff on that list and you've listed all of them. And if I may point out over half of those are wielded by HQs.

Why would they not need Teleporters? Teleportation is still a very powerful tactical tool, if you don't have all the forces you need on the ships and a billion other uses. So it still DID matter. Rules-wise, the Lith got a nerf, as to be expected. Reanimation protocols got a pretty huge buff though, so the no-reroll is understandable.
Of course you can count the Ghost Walk Mantle. In the Old codex, the cost for outfitting your lord, with a Veil of Darkness, was rather close to what Obyron is costing now, but he is better. Also, you could only have one VoD in the Army anyway. So, no, it's really not that different than before.
Balance-wise, you couldn't continue to have all these things that pull the Necrons out of combat. In the Old codex, it was needed, but now we have a ton of things to help mitigate close combat, such as the Royal court, and some of the wargear. In the Old dex, we had none of that. It's the same reason the Monolith used to be so strong, it was needed because it was our only vehicle, and provided everything for us. This isn't the case anymore.

The Necrons are still a unique faction, with an army list unlike any other army you can play. Things change when they are updated, and GW was steering clear of bypassing Invuls, as could be seen with the GK codex on Psycannons.
Half of the long range weapons are wielded by the Royal Court, which is a lot different than your Average HQ. The fact that they are all assault weapons, and can be split up around your army, is quite powerful.

though the 40 points per model was the price for such durability.
As for TH/SS termies I wouldn't know as I am not a SM player.

It's pretty common knowledge that TH/SS termies are some of the best assault units in the entire game, even though they swing last in combat.

Your right I have never used QS in battle, because all I've got is the monolith, and I don't have the money to go and buy another $300+ of new models to make what I do have an effective army.

Then you shouldn't pass judgement, until you at least try it in a few proxy games. It's getting pretty well known that the AV 13 wall is tough to deal with, and a very viable tactic. Money wise, The Command barge is excellent buy, as it comes with the plastic Overlord, and Both options that you can build out of the kit are very solid game wise.

OK, so i missed the longer ranged weapons, my bad.

It strikes me, that this thread was a Knee-jerk reaction to a lot of things that you didn't like at first glance. I mean, you've argued a few game mechanics, when you haven't even played them. I'm just saying, that you should take a lot more time, to think about these things, before running to the forums to complain about the new dex.

I'm with Sasori. The new Necron dex is one of the best GW's done in quite a while. The fluff is much more compelling and interesting than the last one. The variety and fun and competitive value of the units is leaps and bounds ahead of the old stuff, and now IMO one of the best in the entire game.

Seeing as my buddy and I play alot of 4th ed games, I'm really thinking of taking the cool looking vehicles and VDRing them. A poor substiture, but there it is.

I personally like the codex and think it does a lot of good things for the necrons. Before it was big blocks of warriors to hide from phase out. Now every cron army is different to a degree. There is so many options in the book to make a variety of interesting lists.

Plus it has shown to be very competitive. I was skimming tournament results and ranking hq showed 2 of the big events were won by the new crons. Thats good news and hopefully the next book follow in its foot steps.

The Fluff... to an extent i'm okay with, but the units? Gotta say I'm glad and happy with.

Rules can only be made with logic and sense, as far as balance is concerned. The desginers clearly felt that Destroyers should be Jump Infantry, and that's as close to logical as it can be. -Loki- also pointed out earlier why being Jump Infantry makes sense as well

So basically what your telling me is 'that's how it is, get over it'

Once again, this is really striking me as silly argument. You think, that fluffwise they come off as sounding as elites, so they should be? That's once again, absurd. I mean, honestly. Game balance wise, they are perfect, and make sense as troops. Fluff wise, they make sense as Troops as well, since they were always troops before bio-transferrence. Immortals were also only given "adequate" bodies, compared to the rest of the elites, which were given the superior bodies. (Besides Deathmarks, who of course have enough going for them to be considered elites) Immortals are also featured in almost every battle, as foot soldiers. Which is what they are. They are basic troops, that are slightly more durable than warriors, with better weapons. Nothing about them "Screams Elite" in their current incarnation. While Warriors are going to be much more common than Immortals, Immortals are going to be significantly more common than everything else in the Elite slot.

What your saying makes sense. I guess I hadn't thought of it that way.

Consiering it was the C'tan that gave the Necrons the knowledge for Bio-transferrence, and their new bodies, it is quite possible. Illuiminor Szeras only did what he could with the knowledge that he was given.
Ok, even when Necrons are getting cut in Half, or beheaded, or worse, They are still self-repairing from that is my point.

I'm not saying that they wouldn't be able to come back, I'm saying they fight space marines take hits from things like PW and are just like "oh well" and keep going as if nothing happened.

Look, the writers decided to take a new direction with the Necrons, and focus more on them, than the C'tan. Could they have provided more information? Yes. Did they need to? No, I don't think so. I think what we have, is sufficient enough to set the backstory for them. The focus needed to be on the current Necrons, not their past. You always have the Old codex for more fluff on the War on heavens, if you want. It's not like the new fluff invalidates everything about it.

I don't see how any of the old C'tan fluff could still be applicable. Every thing after the war in heaven is invalid. Since the new codex said the C'tan contacted the Necrons that invalidates their origin stories. The only thing left is that the C'tan kicked the old one's butt, but thats in the new 'dex as well.

Why would they not need Teleporters? Teleportation is still a very powerful tactical tool, if you don't have all the forces you need on the ships and a billion other uses. So it still DID matter. Rules-wise, the Lith got a nerf, as to be expected. Reanimation protocols got a pretty huge buff though, so the no-reroll is understandable.
Of course you can count the Ghost Walk Mantle. In the Old codex, the cost for outfitting your lord, with a Veil of Darkness, was rather close to what Obyron is costing now, but he is better. Also, you could only have one VoD in the Army anyway. So, no, it's really not that different than before.
Balance-wise, you couldn't continue to have all these things that pull the Necrons out of combat. In the Old codex, it was needed, but now we have a ton of things to help mitigate close combat, such as the Royal court, and some of the wargear. In the Old dex, we had none of that. It's the same reason the Monolith used to be so strong, it was needed because it was our only vehicle, and provided everything for us. This isn't the case anymore.

I didn't mean they have no teleporters. I meant that afaik they didn't have any trans galactic teleporters, but i don't know for sure. I guess phase out is trans galactic but that's only leaving.
RP hardly got a huge buff. maybe a little one in certain circumstances. Although with a rez orb they are identical. but the new rez orb only counts for the unit the lord is with, not 6" like before. Although that is kind of balanced by having up to 12 orb wielding guys. though you'd end up paying (approximately) 70 pnts per squad covered.
But if you just take obyron then you don't get a rez orb, if you take both obyron and zahn they you paying 345pnts for what you used to get for 200.
The rest of what you say also makes sense

It's pretty common knowledge that TH/SS termies are some of the best assault units in the entire game, even though they swing last in combat.

Not for some one who's never seen SM on the table top.

Then you shouldn't pass judgement, until you at least try it in a few proxy games. It's getting pretty well known that the AV 13 wall is tough to deal with, and a very viable tactic. Money wise, The Command barge is excellent buy, as it comes with the plastic Overlord, and Both options that you can build out of the kit are very solid game wise.

I guess your right but I don't have any thing to use as a proxy.
I really don't know much about fighting vehicles most the people i game with use tyranids, and one uses foot slogging orks.

So basically what your telling me is 'that's how it is, get over it'

In a sense. I'm saying, that balance-wise that's how the devs ruled it, and it is as close to being as logical as can be. -Loki's- explination makes a lot of sense as well.

What your saying makes sense. I guess I hadn't thought of it that way.

Glad we've come to an understanding.

I'm not saying that they wouldn't be able to come back, I'm saying they fight space marines take hits from things like PW and are just like "oh well" and keep going as if nothing happened.

I don't quite understand where we are going with this now.

I didn't mean they have no teleporters. I meant that afaik they didn't have any trans galactic teleporters, but i don't know for sure. I guess phase out is trans galactic but that's only leaving.
RP hardly got a huge buff. maybe a little one in certain circumstances. Although with a rez orb they are identical. but the new rez orb only counts for the unit the lord is with, not 6" like before. Although that is kind of balanced by having up to 12 orb wielding guys. though you'd end up paying (approximately) 70 pnts per squad covered.
But if you just take obyron then you don't get a rez orb, if you take both obyron and zahn they you paying 345pnts for what you used to get for 200.
The rest of what you say also makes sense

The Nightscythe mentions that it can teleport from "Far away Tomb Worlds"

RP got quite a buff. The fact is, it required a Res Orb nearby to make WBB, from things like Power Weapons, or weapons that were double the T. With the amount of strength 8+ spam you see in most armies, that Res Orb would be critical. You could also only have 2. RP now works all the time, without needing a Res orb to babysit them. In my opinion, this is much better.

Well, you don't have to take Zahn. You can take an Overlord instead, and attach him to the unit that Obyron is in. It's more expensive than the Old Combo, but it's significantly stronger.

Not for some one who's never seen SM on the table top.

That's pretty unusual. Well, TH/SS are very brutal in close combat, and they swing last.

I guess your right but I don't have any thing to use as a proxy.
I really don't know much about fighting vehicles most the people i game with use tyranids, and one uses foot slogging orks.

Well, that's too bad. This forum has a great player base, that can offer help on everything from Modeling tips.

I'll go ahead an explain it to you though. Strength 8, is probably the most common type of Anti-tank weapon spammed right now. It takes a 6 to pen a QS Vehicle. That's not very good odds after "To Hit" rolls. When a QS Vehicle gets penned, it sucks, but it can generally withstand a lot of firepower. When you have 6+ of these, It becomes really tough to down them all. Living metal helps with all the Glancing hits it can get as well. Ignoring Shaken on a 2+ and stunned on a 4+ is very good. Not as good as fortitude, but still VERY good.


EDIT: Missed one

I don't see how any of the old C'tan fluff could still be applicable. Every thing after the war in heaven is invalid. Since the new codex said the C'tan contacted the Necrons that invalidates their origin stories. The only thing left is that the C'tan kicked the old one's butt, but thats in the new 'dex as well.

Well, it states in the codex that many shards are still unaccounted for. This gives them the leeway, that everything that has been done since the War in heaven, is done by a Shard. So a good chunk of the fluff is quite valid.

I can't comment on the gameplay of the new necron vehicles, as I don't play table-top, but they seem very...out of place, to me. I feel like slower, more permanently resilient'(fully covered) vehicles for necrons would have made a lot more sense.

Ronin-Sage wrote:I can't comment on the gameplay of the new necron vehicles, as I don't play table-top, but they seem very...out of place, to me. I feel like slower, more permanently resilient'(fully covered) vehicles for necrons would have made a lot more sense.

Think of it this way, why would a ghost ark need a cover when its cargo(warriors) are T4 with a 4+sv and get up on a 5++? not to mention the arks ability to sccop up the fallen bodies and return D3 every turn, the ark stil has AV13 until penned, ignore shaken and stunned most of the time, isnt slow like a Leman Russ oh, and all the warriors in it? Can fire, RAPID-fire, with guns that auto-glance, I wouldnt bother covering it either

Open-topped don't make any sense. Even your infantry cargo are tough bastards like necrons, you would still want some plating damage instead of them.

Not if you prioritize having more guys shooting out over preserving the "lives" of your self-repairing immortal robot soldiers.

I am just going to quote Lord Damocles from warseer here since he already did the research.

It says that without the Dolmen gates, the Necrons would have to rely on their [relatively] slow ships.

Necrons still have their portals - although a portal is required at the destination, so Necrons can't just pop out of thin air anywhere they like.
Necrons still have their phase technology - although it only works with the tomb/ship (etc.) as the destination.
Necrons still have their ships - which although slow relative to the webway/portals/phase technolgy (this was already the case prior to the 5th ed. Codex, as per Dark Creed (pg.251)) are still capable of faster than light travel in realspace (or even if we arbitrarily ignore Dark Creed (pg.109) for some absurd reason, near light speeds, as per Hammer and Anvil (pg.232))..

NL_Cirrus wrote:And what would lead you to believe its poorly researched

The parts where you are missing a lot of things that are in the Codex.

NL_Cirrus wrote:
Then why not make them jet bikes with out the turbo-boost ability, or give them special rules for being hover infantry or something. They make no sense as jump infantry. EX Destroyer goes to move in to a building, but rolled poorly on his difficult terrain test, wait difficult terrain test? he floats what could possibly happened? Did he hit his head on the ceiling. trip on a brick or fly into a wall? wait wouldn't that cause wounds, so wouldn't that make it dangerous not difficult?
I agree the fluff=/=rules (or in most cases it shouldn't, if it did SMs would always win in the end) but rules should = logical and sense

Okay, now you just aren't thinking at all.

Jump Infantry: Move 12", ignore difficult terrain unless starting/finishing your move in it. Can Run. Can Assault 6".
Jetbike: Move 12", ignore difficult terrain unless starting/finishing your move in it. Can't Run. Can TurboBoost. Can Assault 6".

That's the only difference. If Destroyers could move 24" they'd be a little broken. Otherwise they function the same. And I'm not going to bother arguing the physics of hovercraft technology and vectored thrust engines. If you really care for why there is a dangerous terrain test for difficult terrain, do the research yourself and see its actually got some basis in fact.

NL_Cirrus wrote: Hmm 'more experienced versions of regular solders' so like Immortals. warriors being the normal civilians and Immortals being the troops of the Necrons I'd say they would be far more experienced. And unless more than 50% of the necrontyr population was militarized I'd say there are far more warriors than Immortals. since they are the only thing the army had to offer I'd say they are the best. So the Immortals just fulfilled every prerequisite in the rule book for being elites. So either we should disregard the rule book, they should have different fluff, or they should be elites.

Your argument is flawed. For several reasons. For one, the Force Organization chart is a game mechanic, not a fluff mechanic. Immortals may be better/more experienced warriors, but they can still claim objectives.

Also, your argument would preclude any and all Aspect Warriors for Eldar from the Troops choice. If all 9 Aspect Warrior choices were Elites you'd never be able to make a truly Eldar army.

Same thing here. While they are more experienced and better equipped and so on, they have a role to play on the battlefield which is why they are Troops and not Elites.

I imagine in 6th Edition the BRB is going to describe Elites as shock units and the like.

NL_Cirrus wrote:But that in and of itself doesn't make sense (with the exception of Obyron vs. Khan as we don't know what his weapon was) as most high ranking SM carry power weapons, And that would be more like, Storm lord fails to block, slice, Storm lord dead. I mean really what are they using to move their limbs? Servos from 21st century earth? You'd think the masters of physics could come up with something a little better than that.

And lets talk theoretically cybernetic science. The Necrontyr had frail, weak bodies. They possible/probably did not have a quick response time in those bodies. Tau for example are not quick, nor are Orks unless they are charging. The entire backstory of the Necrons is about how the transfer into metal bodies was not the deal they had envisioned it to be. Their bodies may indeed be capable of reacting much faster, but their brains are only processing things at speeds they are comfortable with.

This is especially true for the Necron Warriors who were the civilians of the Necrontyr. Your average joe is not going to just magically adjust his way of thinking just because he's been transformed into a construct.

NL_Cirrus wrote: I'm sorry i didn't differentiate between fluff and rules I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.
Fluff wise before they didn't need teleporters that spanned the whole galaxy their ships were so fast it didn't matter.

Which also gives them an incredibly insane advantage in a story about Galactic scale warfare. The tech that would allow you to have inertia-less drives would also allow you to hurl asteroids at such velocities as to wipe out planets before defense systems can react. It was a stupid-broken idea to begin with and they finally realized that and are taking it out. They still want them to be everywhere, so they use teleportation to explain it. No planet destroying loop holes that would allow them to run over everything but maybe the Tyranids.

In short, it makes for a better story.

NL_Cirrus wrote:I though the 40 points per model was the price for such durability.
As for TH/SS termies I wouldn't know as I am not a SM player.

TH/SS termies are ~42 points IIRC. More for Space Wolves. Not an option for CSM. I'd say they are pretty fairly priced if you compare the units. Of course, with Terminators you mix up TH/SS with some pairs of LC for I4/5 attacks.

NL_Cirrus wrote: Your right I have never used QS in battle, because all I've got is the monolith, and I don't have the money to go and buy another $300+ of new models to make what I do have an effective army.

That's GW for you. At any rate, AV13 is hard to pop. Requires a strength that is normally limited in number. S8 requires a 6 on the dice roll to pop it. S9 a 5 and S10 a 4. There just aren't a lot of weapons that can do that reliably available to most armies. Space Marines normally have a lot of S8 but few S9 (like 3-4) and no S10 at range (unless someone is doing double Vindicator). Effectively you have AV13 for most of the game.

cowmonaut wrote:

Which also gives them an incredibly insane advantage in a story about Galactic scale warfare. The tech that would allow you to have inertia-less drives would also allow you to hurl asteroids at such velocities as to wipe out planets before defense systems can react. It was a stupid-broken idea to begin with and they finally realized that and are taking it out. They still want them to be everywhere, so they use teleportation to explain it. No planet destroying loop holes that would allow them to run over everything but maybe the Tyranids.

Huh, that's actually a good point. I didn't realize that.
Still really silly that they are webway reliant. With all the extra-dimensional phase tech you'd think they'd use their own dimension for traveling, but no, they had to use the webway.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:

Which also gives them an incredibly insane advantage in a story about Galactic scale warfare. The tech that would allow you to have inertia-less drives would also allow you to hurl asteroids at such velocities as to wipe out planets before defense systems can react. It was a stupid-broken idea to begin with and they finally realized that and are taking it out. They still want them to be everywhere, so they use teleportation to explain it. No planet destroying loop holes that would allow them to run over everything but maybe the Tyranids.

Huh, that's actually a good point. I didn't realize that.
Still really silly that they are webway reliant. With all the extra-dimensional phase tech you'd think they'd use their own dimension for traveling, but no, they had to use the webway.

I enjoy it for the idea that the Eldar aren't all as safe as they think...

Kurgash wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:

Which also gives them an incredibly insane advantage in a story about Galactic scale warfare. The tech that would allow you to have inertia-less drives would also allow you to hurl asteroids at such velocities as to wipe out planets before defense systems can react. It was a stupid-broken idea to begin with and they finally realized that and are taking it out. They still want them to be everywhere, so they use teleportation to explain it. No planet destroying loop holes that would allow them to run over everything but maybe the Tyranids.

Huh, that's actually a good point. I didn't realize that.
Still really silly that they are webway reliant. With all the extra-dimensional phase tech you'd think they'd use their own dimension for traveling, but no, they had to use the webway.

I enjoy it for the idea that the Eldar aren't all as safe as they think...

I enjoy that aspect as well. The aspect that I do not enjoy is that the necrons rely on the webway. If they just used it for tactical reasons that would be fine, but it appears that they have to use it.