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I'm not so sure about this either. Lets look at the following troops that are decent.
Orks : Boyz
GK : Purifiers/Strike Squads/Paladins
DA : Terminators
BA : Assault marines
SW : Grey Hunters
IG : Vet Squads
Now lets look at the armies with OK troop choices
DE : Warriors/Wytches
SoB : 10 woman sister squads
Necrons : Warriors
CSM : These range from OK to poor, but lets say OK.
Now lets look at armies that have poor troop choices
Tau : Fire Warriors
Eldar : Dire Avengers/Guardians
C:SM : Tac Marines (bike armies can be OK)
I don't know about daemons or nids to rate them fairly.
Looking at these choices, I see quite a few good choices available as troops. I just think that marines got the short end of the stick.
I don't actually think Boyz are decent. They were in 4th, but in 5th the fearless just kills ruins them for me. Lots of people will disagree with me on this, but I've played plenty of games with my orks and they are just to clunky and easy to kill. Effective numbers of them are too expensive and clog up the board. I would put them into OK.
I don't consider elite units moved to troops to be real troops. Otherwise I would put nobs for the orks as amazing troops. So purifiers and paladins are off the list of decent troops. Same goes for DA termies.
BA assault marines aren't amazing in of themselves. They have good synergy with the other choices in BA, and you don't have to take tacs, and they make your transports cheaper. The models themselves isn't anything special. Assault marines in other armies suck because they don't have the army around them to support them and aren't troops, in BA the opposite it true.
Grey hunters are great troops. Marines who get good weapon options, can make opponents not really want to charge them, and are cheap compared to other marine dex troops? I like them.
IG vets: While I think people over use these even in lists where platoons would be better, I still like these guys. BS 4 and good weapon choices means they just too good for many people to pass up.
DE: I think that their troops should be moved up to decent. Cheap bodies that can get FNP, good weapons, and have fleet can't be anything less than decent. They don't pay for defensive ability, but why would you when they have 4+ when it matters (cover or the invul in CC that wyches have). Their transport options are also very solid.
SoB: Before WD dex I would rate them as among the best troops due to 2 special weapon PA bodies with special powers for cheap. I'm inclined to still like them even though the army as a whole is much worse. I think they are decent.
Necrons: Both of their troop choices have issues. The immortals can take tesla which I like quite a bit. The warriors can ride in the ghost barge, which I like quite a bit. Neither one is survivable in assault, and perhaps still costs a bit more than I like. I would still put them on the border of OK/decent.
CSM: Most of their troops choices are decent. You pay far too much for them though, which makes them suck for the points. Averages out to ok. In agreement here I guess.
Fire warriors: Only the die hard tau tactica kool-aid drinkers think highly of these guys. They are beyond the suck. Their gun is decent enough, but the rest of the model sucks, and the S5 which makes the gun "good" is every where in the army so is kinda redundant.
Eldar: I actually think that dire avengers are OK for their points, Like most of the book they cost a bit too much. If storm guardians weren't too much and their transport far too expensive I would put them into OK. Regular guardians would be OK if their choices of weapons platforms weren't so underwhelming.
C:SM While I hate paying the tac tax with SM, I can't say they are "poor" They cost too much and their weapons options are stupidly structured, but they are still meq bodies with ATSKNF, combat squading, and combat tactics. The sarge tax and 16 pts per model is too much even with "free" weapon upgrades. The price you pay for being OK at everything is a bit too high IMHO. But they fill any role reasonably well (other than assault, even then they beat up on xenos and guard troops). They aren't good enough to fill up your troop slots with, unlike some other armies (DE come to mind). I would put them at OK, but I also rate scouts at this level. Unlike most marine players I split my troops between scouts and tacs.
I've frequently found myself playing variants of this list at 1750:
220 - WGBL w/ Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Weapon, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of the Warrior Born
120 - RP w/ Chooser of the Slain, Saga of the Beastslayer, Living Lightning, Storm Caller
110 - WP w/ Saga of the Hunter
85 - WS x5 w/ Meltagun
200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard
200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard
200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard
225 - BC x15
120 - TC x2 w/ 1 Wolf Claw
155 - LF x6 w/ 3 Heavy Bolter, 2 Lascannons
115 - LF x5 w/ 4 Missile Launchers
Generally speaking, Wolf Priest (who makes whatever unit he joins have Stealth and Fearless) leads a large pack of Blood Claws whom act as meatshields. You essentially just run the massive blob of Blood Claws at the enemy. Most armies can't afford to just ignore them, what with 4 attacks a model at Initiative 4 with re-rolls to hit. By turn 5 against fairly shooty armies I tend to only have 3 left, but the rest of my squads are usually untouched (thank you suppressing fire).
To be honest, I'm surprised it works as well as it does. I imagine I'll be moving more and more towards Hybrid. But that's beside the point. The point is, this highly 'noncompetitive' list doesn't perform as drastically bad against more competitive armies (BA Jump Lists gave me the hardest time and I'm positive its because I made a grossly stupid mistake as opposed to the list itself) as you'd be lead to believe from all the blogging done by people like Kirby, Stelek, others here and elsewhere.
Its already been hinted at in this thread. On a standard 6x4 table, there isn't quite as much room to maneuver as one would think. Once you bring in Objectives its even easier, as they tend to anchor the opponent's army, if he has any hope of winning. For most setups you and the enemy are 24-30" apart at the start of the game. Hoofing it moves you 7-12" typically. That's not much to half the distance covered in one Turn.
And what about the enemy? An awful lot of weapons seem to have a 24" range these days, given the prevalence of Troops. Some may have longer range, but 6 Razorbacks pew-pewing Lascannons at a group of 15 space marines that have a 4+ or better cover save is not going to accomplish a whole lot. Even Leman Russes/Vindicators don't do as much damage as they should in most cases.
So what happens? Well a lot of armies have to move towards you. Particularly other Space Marine armies. Either because you are moving towards the Objectives with too many bodies to handle in 2 turns or because they need to get you in range of their guns. A fair portion of the time, the enemy is likely helping you close the distance.
If they aren't, so much the better. Keep up the suppressing fire and get ready to hit them on your terms then. There is only so much table. While they may thin out some of your numbers, they can't keep moving backwards. They start practically on the table edge as it is. Outflankers (this is where Wolf Scouts really shine) can help force them back in, towards your army. 10 Space Marines, let alone 60 (since usually thats how many you can get in MEQ horde at 1750), takes up quite a bit of space. Those Dark Eldar will have to Tank Shock you in order to get away. Which means exposing rear armor.
Has 74 MEQ bodies, 79 total infantry. 22 Missiles. This can stand and shoot with the best of them. There isn't much of a dedicated assault unit but 74 MEQ's will eventually break most combat units, especially after they have been shot up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cowmonaut wrote:I've frequently found myself playing variants of this list at 1750:
220 - WGBL w/ Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Weapon, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of the Warrior Born
120 - RP w/ Chooser of the Slain, Saga of the Beastslayer, Living Lightning, Storm Caller
110 - WP w/ Saga of the Hunter
85 - WS x5 w/ Meltagun
200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard
200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard
200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard
225 - BC x15
120 - TC x2 w/ 1 Wolf Claw
155 - LF x6 w/ 3 Heavy Bolter, 2 Lascannons
115 - LF x5 w/ 4 Missile Launchers
Generally speaking, Wolf Priest (who makes whatever unit he joins have Stealth and Fearless) leads a large pack of Blood Claws whom act as meatshields. You essentially just run the massive blob of Blood Claws at the enemy. Most armies can't afford to just ignore them, what with 4 attacks a model at Initiative 4 with re-rolls to hit. By turn 5 against fairly shooty armies I tend to only have 3 left, but the rest of my squads are usually untouched (thank you suppressing fire).
To be honest, I'm surprised it works as well as it does. I imagine I'll be moving more and more towards Hybrid. But that's beside the point. The point is, this highly 'noncompetitive' list doesn't perform as drastically bad against more competitive armies (BA Jump Lists gave me the hardest time and I'm positive its because I made a grossly stupid mistake as opposed to the list itself) as you'd be lead to believe from all the blogging done by people like Kirby, Stelek, others here and elsewhere.
Its already been hinted at in this thread. On a standard 6x4 table, there isn't quite as much room to maneuver as one would think. Once you bring in Objectives its even easier, as they tend to anchor the opponent's army, if he has any hope of winning. For most setups you and the enemy are 24-30" apart at the start of the game. Hoofing it moves you 7-12" typically. That's not much to half the distance covered in one Turn.
And what about the enemy? An awful lot of weapons seem to have a 24" range these days, given the prevalence of Troops. Some may have longer range, but 6 Razorbacks pew-pewing Lascannons at a group of 15 space marines that have a 4+ or better cover save is not going to accomplish a whole lot. Even Leman Russes/Vindicators don't do as much damage as they should in most cases.
So what happens? Well a lot of armies have to move towards you. Particularly other Space Marine armies. Either because you are moving towards the Objectives with too many bodies to handle in 2 turns or because they need to get you in range of their guns. A fair portion of the time, the enemy is likely helping you close the distance.
If they aren't, so much the better. Keep up the suppressing fire and get ready to hit them on your terms then. There is only so much table. While they may thin out some of your numbers, they can't keep moving backwards. They start practically on the table edge as it is. Outflankers (this is where Wolf Scouts really shine) can help force them back in, towards your army. 10 Space Marines, let alone 60 (since usually thats how many you can get in MEQ horde at 1750), takes up quite a bit of space. Those Dark Eldar will have to Tank Shock you in order to get away. Which means exposing rear armor.
Awful army. Doesn't pack nearly enough ranged anti-tank. Dark Eldar will laugh at this. Any foot wolves list will need to make use of the 3 squads of Long Fangs. It increases infantry saturation and provides a stable firebase. If you want to do foot wolves you are much better off going the Loganwing route:
Logan Grimnar
Rune Priest LL, Jaws
5 Scouts Meltagun
5 Scouts Meltagun
5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 10 Wolf Guard 1 Combi-melta, 7 Bolter, 2 TA w/ CML (1 with Fist)
10 Wolf Guard 1 Combi-melta, 7 Bolter, 2 TA w/ CML 5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles
5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles
5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles
List has a good amount of bodies with 28 missiles. At range this list should be able to stand up to most other lists. Logan and his squad will provide nice counterassault.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 20:12:32
even scaled down both of my lists pack far more shooting. Thunderwolves are too much of a point-sink to bother with. DE and GK laugh at Thunderwolves and the new Necrons can do quite well against them too, if they take Wraiths. If going for a "horde" them, it is best to take as many GH or WG as possible.
Not to mention, Plasma Guns are fairly irrelevant in today's meta-game. Melta is far more useful. Wolf Scouts also allow the Space Wolves to have the ability to have backfield disruption that is otherwise difficult to replicate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/24 22:25:18
Fluff-wise, a horde footlogging army of plague marines would be great. They are a bit point-intensive, however.
However, I'm curious about how a full regular CMS army would fare. They are nicely priced, not particularly slow, can carry an amazing variety of weapons and can be made to hardly ever run away with a chaos glory icon.
Let's see a sample army at 1500:
Kharn the Betrayer
16 CSM (Champ with PF, combi-weapon), 2 plasma guns, IOCG 16 CSM (Champ with PF, combi-weapon), 2 melta guns, IOCG 16 CSM (Champ with PF, combi-weapon), 2 melta guns, IOCG 16 CSM (Champ with PF, combi-weapon, meltabomb), 2 flamers, IOCG
Lots of special weapons for nearly all needs, and combis on the champions so you can mix and match for your purposes. A CC beast HQ to prevent assaults on your key squad until you want to charge. It'd suffer against blast-heavy IG gunlines, but then again, what wouldn't in the CSM codex?
In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.
In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos.
Abyssel wrote:I played a tournament with 1500p of ultramarines
calgar
50 tac marines with lascannons and plasma rifles
2 vindicators.
worked pretty well for me for being a fun list.
Why Calgar? I am not saying you should have taken A over B. just wanted to know.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also i noticed no one takes wolves (the animals) in their SW horde lists. 15 for 120pts make a great screen for your troops, give an HQ wolfkin and they are good in combat just avoid FNP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/25 01:51:19
LValx wrote:even scaled down both of my lists pack far more shooting. Thunderwolves are too much of a point-sink to bother with. DE and GK laugh at Thunderwolves and the new Necrons can do quite well against them too, if they take Wraiths. If going for a "horde" them, it is best to take as many GH or WG as possible.
Not to mention, Plasma Guns are fairly irrelevant in today's meta-game. Melta is far more useful. Wolf Scouts also allow the Space Wolves to have the ability to have backfield disruption that is otherwise difficult to replicate.
I agree that the list you quoted has too weak shooting. I pack 17 missiles into my 1500pts foot SW list.
Thundercav is not a point-sink if you stay away from lords etc. Just use them as a cheap guided missile and play them smart. You can't just wander up the middle of the field with a small unit, you must use reserves, objective placement and terrain to your advantage.
GK's won't laugh as a 125pts thundercav unit rips through 5 men purifier/interceptor/strike squads, necrons will hate them, as even a tiny unit can smash almost all of their units apart. Both of these armies also rely heavily on 24" shooting, which is within the potential charge range of thundercav. They are even better against IG and razorspam marines. It hurts to get one of these units into your chimera-wall.
I'll grant you that they are less useful against DE, but then everything close combat heavy tends to be.
In my last game, my thundercav smashed a 5-man purifier squad that fell out of their razorback. They killed the last ones on my opponent's turn, leaving the surviving fist free from shooting and ready for a new target. The fist then managed to find a way into his backfield, charging a dread. Unfortunately, he completely wiffed, and my thundercav was taken down by another squad of purifers (which had to be diverted backwards by my opponent). Even with rubber-fist syndrome stopping me from taking out that dread, that shows the potential of a very cheap, but still punchy and decently survivable unit even against the most competitive codex.
Thundercav is an amazing unit, and they fit in pretty much all SW lists.
Wolf scouts are great, no argument there
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/25 07:11:05
Has 74 MEQ bodies, 79 total infantry. 22 Missiles. This can stand and shoot with the best of them. There isn't much of a dedicated assault unit but 74 MEQ's will eventually break most combat units, especially after they have been shot up.
Its also a bit more than 1750 points and isn't fully on foot like the OP wanted. Even better, it doesn't have anything actually scary in close combat.
LValx wrote:
Spoiler:
cowmonaut wrote:I've frequently found myself playing variants of this list at 1750:
220 - WGBL w/ Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Weapon, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of the Warrior Born 120 - RP w/ Chooser of the Slain, Saga of the Beastslayer, Living Lightning, Storm Caller 110 - WP w/ Saga of the Hunter 85 - WS x5 w/ Meltagun 200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard 200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard 200 - GH x10 w/ 2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, MotW, Wolf Standard 225 - BC x15 120 - TC x2 w/ 1 Wolf Claw 155 - LF x6 w/ 3 Heavy Bolter, 2 Lascannons 115 - LF x5 w/ 4 Missile Launchers
Generally speaking, Wolf Priest (who makes whatever unit he joins have Stealth and Fearless) leads a large pack of Blood Claws whom act as meatshields. You essentially just run the massive blob of Blood Claws at the enemy. Most armies can't afford to just ignore them, what with 4 attacks a model at Initiative 4 with re-rolls to hit. By turn 5 against fairly shooty armies I tend to only have 3 left, but the rest of my squads are usually untouched (thank you suppressing fire).
To be honest, I'm surprised it works as well as it does. I imagine I'll be moving more and more towards Hybrid. But that's beside the point. The point is, this highly 'noncompetitive' list doesn't perform as drastically bad against more competitive armies (BA Jump Lists gave me the hardest time and I'm positive its because I made a grossly stupid mistake as opposed to the list itself) as you'd be lead to believe from all the blogging done by people like Kirby, Stelek, others here and elsewhere.
Its already been hinted at in this thread. On a standard 6x4 table, there isn't quite as much room to maneuver as one would think. Once you bring in Objectives its even easier, as they tend to anchor the opponent's army, if he has any hope of winning. For most setups you and the enemy are 24-30" apart at the start of the game. Hoofing it moves you 7-12" typically. That's not much to half the distance covered in one Turn.
And what about the enemy? An awful lot of weapons seem to have a 24" range these days, given the prevalence of Troops. Some may have longer range, but 6 Razorbacks pew-pewing Lascannons at a group of 15 space marines that have a 4+ or better cover save is not going to accomplish a whole lot. Even Leman Russes/Vindicators don't do as much damage as they should in most cases.
So what happens? Well a lot of armies have to move towards you. Particularly other Space Marine armies. Either because you are moving towards the Objectives with too many bodies to handle in 2 turns or because they need to get you in range of their guns. A fair portion of the time, the enemy is likely helping you close the distance.
If they aren't, so much the better. Keep up the suppressing fire and get ready to hit them on your terms then. There is only so much table. While they may thin out some of your numbers, they can't keep moving backwards. They start practically on the table edge as it is. Outflankers (this is where Wolf Scouts really shine) can help force them back in, towards your army. 10 Space Marines, let alone 60 (since usually thats how many you can get in MEQ horde at 1750), takes up quite a bit of space. Those Dark Eldar will have to Tank Shock you in order to get away. Which means exposing rear armor.
Awful army. Doesn't pack nearly enough ranged anti-tank. Dark Eldar will laugh at this. Any foot wolves list will need to make use of the 3 squads of Long Fangs. It increases infantry saturation and provides a stable firebase.
Try it sometime. Dark Eldar may be one army I may have difficulty with. I haven't played enough games against Dark Eldar to know fur sure yet. Against every other army though... The FLGS sees 5 BA, 3 GK, 1 IG, 1 Nid, 3 Eldar, 1 DE, 1 other SW, 1 Tau, and 2 vanilla SM on a regular basis with others that fluctuate week to week. Most of those lists are netlists. Fun things with double Storm Raven or double Land Raider, full mechdar. Tanks everywhere. I don't struggle to deal with anyone because of lack of ranged anti-tank. I bring enough to suppress the vehicles I need to, and when I'm closer I have Melta and Plasma on my Grey Hunters.
At 1750 you don't "need" 3 Long Fangs, but it can be nice. I refer to spend the points on something else though at that point.
LValx wrote:If you want to do foot wolves you are much better off going the Loganwing route: Logan Grimnar Rune Priest LL, Jaws 5 Scouts Meltagun 5 Scouts Meltagun 5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 5 Wolf Guard 4 Bolters, 1 TA w/ CML 10 Wolf Guard 1 Combi-melta, 7 Bolter, 2 TA w/ CML (1 with Fist) 10 Wolf Guard 1 Combi-melta, 7 Bolter, 2 TA w/ CML 5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles 5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles 5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles
List has a good amount of bodies with 28 missiles. At range this list should be able to stand up to most other lists. Logan and his squad will provide nice counterassault.
There are better Loganwing options, but yes. Loganwing is one way to go with Foot Wolves. Its definitely not the only way that works.
Illumini wrote:Both of your lists are 2000pts, right? At least the second one is. No wonder they outshoot a 1750pts list
Cowmonaut's list could be better, but throwing 2000pts lists against a 1750pts list proves nothing.
Foot wolves (and pretty much all other wolves) should also take advantage of thundercav. They are a great unit.
EDIT: Thought the point cost was directed at me, my apologies! You are correct that comparing a 2000 point list to 1750 compares little.
LValx wrote:even scaled down both of my lists pack far more shooting. Thunderwolves are too much of a point-sink to bother with. DE and GK laugh at Thunderwolves and the new Necrons can do quite well against them too, if they take Wraiths. If going for a "horde" them, it is best to take as many GH or WG as possible.
Thunderwolves are useful if you know how to use them. Took me a few games to get it down. I'm guessing you never bothered really trying. Without a lot of Storm Shields they tend to not do too well against units with lots of high Init attacks and power weapons. The nice thing about them though, is they move 7-12" and have a 12" charge. Meaning, you generally get to fight in combat where you want.
Dark Eldar don't have a whole lot that is scary against Thunderwolves. Even S4 has problems (5's to wound hurts), but S3 is a joke. DE have a lot of Poison which could be a problem, but their basic troop unit doesn't bring a whole lot of poison attacks in combat (at least that i've seen, I need to review the Codex still).
Outside of Wraith, Necrons don't have a whole lot that can stand up to Thunderwolves. Most of their units are sub I4 and with all those Rending attacks...
Sorry, you are just wrong about Thunderwolves. I tend to dump 340 points into them. I do agree they are expensive, and fragile for how expensive they are, but they can really take care of business and are almost mandatory with a Foot Wolves list.
LValx wrote:Not to mention, Plasma Guns are fairly irrelevant in today's meta-game. Melta is far more useful. Wolf Scouts also allow the Space Wolves to have the ability to have backfield disruption that is otherwise difficult to replicate.
Wolf Scouts are amazing and you should never leave home without one. But you are wrong about Plasma. Don't get me wrong, I don't bring only Plasma (anymore). A few Meltaguns are very useful. But Against AV 10/11/12, 2 S7 shots can do more for you than 1 S8 shot. On foot you aren't as likely to get within Melta range, unless the enemy makes a mistake.
With a short range weapon that is only really effective against a certain type of target, there isn't any reason to spam it everywhere. You may as well go for a mix in your army. It just works better.
Overkill can be bad in this game, as can dice rolls. While it pays to bring more than you strictly need, just in case of the dice, it can hurt a bit to take too much of something. Point in case is the armies I tend to bring. They feature very little mech and a whole lot of power armored bodies. Most armies, including ultra-competitive "hard" armies, tend to have trouble dealing with that many models in a tournament setting (2 hours usually sees you to turn 4, turn 5 if you are lucky, turn 3 if both of your armies are hordes).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/27 18:46:22
