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And that's not to mention that the zealots have the ability to temporarily turn into a form of pure energy and travel at the speed of light... and dark templars can render themselves invisible.

As for psionics, psionic abilities in starcraft enable people to do things like burn out the brains of dozens of people at once, and shiz.

Tau have battlesuits and their allies.

Warrior Squirrel wrote:Terran marines can kill Protoss zealots. Terran marines.. Former convicts without training can kill trained warrior protoss. Yep Tau would win.

it takes 3-4 marines to take out 1 zealot, meaning a loss of 50-100 minerals on the terran player's part.
Protoss win.

Also, a Guardsman could kill a space marine. Does that mean in a fight between the IG and SM the IG would win? Of course not.

It's impossible for either side to win, considering thy're from different fictions and both are fiction.

how many bases are either side on? food? upgrades?
these games are designed to be somewhat balanced (40k a bit less so) so thats the only way to know haha.

fiction wise the toss would annihilate everything in either universe, they are that awesome. crab robots ftw

Galdos wrote:No thats actually exactly what happens. They have the "join or die" attitude. There are plenty of stories where this exact incident happens.

Give me one then (source, quote).
Then give me one involving a complete Empire larger than the Tau Empire.

viriditas wrote:how many bases are either side on? food? upgrades?
these games are designed to be somewhat balanced (40k a bit less so) so thats the only way to know haha.

fiction wise the toss would annihilate everything in either universe, they are that awesome. crab robots ftw

Just imagine a maxed out protoss army with 3/3/3 upgrades and all tech researched. But anyway, since Tau don't have any detector units, they automatically lose to the DT rush.

Snarky wrote:
Just imagine a maxed out protoss army with 3/3/3 upgrades and all tech researched. But anyway, since Tau don't have any detector units, they automatically lose to the DT rush.

but what if the tau does the ol stealth suit rush?

viriditas wrote:

Snarky wrote:
Just imagine a maxed out protoss army with 3/3/3 upgrades and all tech researched. But anyway, since Tau don't have any detector units, they automatically lose to the DT rush.

but what if the tau does the ol stealth suit rush?

Build a cannon in your mineral line

Kroothawk wrote:

Galdos wrote:No thats actually exactly what happens. They have the "join or die" attitude. There are plenty of stories where this exact incident happens.

Give me one then (source, quote).
Then give me one involving a complete Empire larger than the Tau Empire.

You didnt say the second part. You just said that the Tau didnt have a Join or Die attitude. The Tau have never declared war on an a full fledge Empire but they approach it through careful planning one piece at a time. They open up trade with a world inside an empire, after the planet becomes close with them, the Tau offer friendship. If the group refuses then the game of politics continues and the Tau try again later. If the planet appears to resist them, the Tau send in the military as a show of force but keep rellying on diplomacy. If it becomes clear that diplo wont work, they began their military campaign.

Any novel featuring the Tau has the Tau performing this way (working on Diplo but if resistance occurs they have no problem invading) and their actions are detailed in several books (Cities of Death I recall has a particullar story of the Tau defeating Vostryans.)


Thats the one thing keeping some of the Tau hate in place, that at least they have an attitude of "Join or Die" and that is considered grimdark somewhat though its still leagues nicer than the Imperiums "Just Die" attitude. That and the Etherials could be mind-controling the Tau but thats major speculation and not fact.


Oh the Tau Codex has that Koloth Gorge Massarcre which has the Tau performing exactly how I mentioned. They offered the Humans a chance to join and later surrender and the humans refused and were killed to the man but thats not the best example sense the commander (Farsight?) was later declared a renegade [I realized this point is completely wrong but its close enough. They massacred the people of the planet Nimba and the Koloth Gorge battle was against the Imperium liberation fleet]


Oh I looked it up on Scribd. Page 1of the Tau codex. In short the Tau military leaders want to have a war on conquest against humanty but the Ethierals forbid it and instead want to conquer humanity from the inside (hearts and minds campaign) The Tau consider it their manifest destiny to destroy the Imperium and add humanity into iteslfs empire. Thats all in the Tau codex on that page.

viriditas wrote:how many bases are either side on? food? upgrades?

Forget all of that. How's the Protoss stockpile of Vespene Gas?

Jaon wrote:
Protoss assumably vastly outnumber eldar,

Uh, no. Protoss have like 3 worlds. This is a total slam dunk for Tau as they finally outnumber an opponent.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Jaon wrote:
Protoss assumably vastly outnumber eldar,

Uh, no. Protoss have like 3 worlds. This is a total slam dunk for Tau as they finally outnumber an opponent.

Sadly, their tech doesn't quite match the protoss.
Though I do wonder how a carrier would fare against rail gun fire.

Tau have beaten the iom a dozen times. Not sure why a race with terrible short range psy tech would put up much of a fight. It took over a dozen chapters to push the tau back during the zeist campaign, not sure how protoss on auir would be a threat.

Cant wait to here the really long winded excuse as to why tau suck though! Tau always pants chumps and Protoss are mega chumps gettin owned by mega scrub zerg swarm.

Protoss were a large race to begin with, created by their gods along side the zerg if I am not mistaken. Then something something something something zerg eating a lot of protoss, something along those lines, the protoss were dwindled down to very few numbers. The Tau have developed into a space-faring race in a few thousand years (whoop-dee-do) and can still fight off anything that's thrown at them (Orks and Farsight compain anyone? Tyrannids? And yes, other skirmishes on planets on the border of the IoM). They ain't huge epic battles, but they can pull their weight by robotic limbs and ze railgunns!

Sooooo, a winner from a battle of protoss vs tau? Meh, not sure, but the Tau aren't shooting with rocket propelled bullets; plasmas and fusion sticks certainly do pack a punch (but I have yet to see someone outsmart bullet.....).

lol yeah no detection against cloaked units for Tau, but wouldn't Kroot hounds be able to sniff them out?

I think they would ally themselves with each other and then they would go out and kill the OP for even thinking of doing another vs thread. Oh how I loathe this threads.
Now Protoss vs Tau?
They would work out a peace treaty. Protoss are almost exactly like the Tau. The tau accept them as archons of the Greater good. Tau become super awesome and I actually consider playing them.

Horst wrote:yea, protoss would annihilate the tau. It wouldn't even be remotely fair.

This...
though once again Coa shows his obssession with the Tau...
Starting to sound like he's a fanboy in denial...

Dark Archon: your troops belong to me now

Ethereal: Ah crap...

Dark Archon: You belong to me now

Ethereal: FUUUUUU... can I get you another cup of tea sir?

purplefood wrote:
though once again Coa shows his obssession with the Tau...
Starting to sound like he's a fanboy in denial...

I am more in following the code - know your enemy well and exploit his weaknesses
But I posted this because it seems well balanced as both races are on somewhat the same level and both races are not stupidly overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau have beaten the IoM a dozen times.

I did that last week. Those guards didn't know what hit them,

Didn't the Dark Eldar annihilate an entire Tau planet?

The Dark Eldar?

Just drop the debate on Tau genocide for a thread that's actually about it (so we can lock that thread nicely down as the flame fest it's going to be).

I see the SC Terrans as basically sororitas. Regular humies in advanced armour, sometimes they are physically boosted sometimes not.

As for Protoss, the Protoss have been badly beaten back. The event would be like the Tau being hit by the full force of a major Tyranid tendril, so naturally they are less numerous.
As far as technology go, Protoss surround all their units with shielding technology, their typical armour is better or equal to the best the Terrans produce, and their training is fanatical - literally.
A protoss body would easily be equal to that of a space marine (even the slightly decrepit Zeratul dwarfs the otherwise quite massive Raynor). If a protoss gets close to a firecast, he's not going to need the fancy psy-blades to crush the Tau, and I doubt a Kroot would fare much better.

Unlike a previous poster, though, I'm more of the opinion that Protoss are going to win the skirmishes, but not the battles. Protoss have adapted to mostly skirmish and guerilla warfare in recent SC-games, and their campaign is seldom the Terran "build a base and secure the area" but rather "make a small base and defeat the specific objectives within time limit".
I don't think the Tau will find many battles, though, since the Protoss are more than adept at redeploying and evading, not to mention hiding their bases and deploying robotic bases with little value.

Galdos wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Galdos wrote:No thats actually exactly what happens. They have the "join or die" attitude. There are plenty of stories where this exact incident happens.

Give me one then (source, quote).
Then give me one involving a complete Empire larger than the Tau Empire.

You didnt say the second part. You just said that the Tau didnt have a Join or Die attitude. The Tau have never declared war on an a full fledge Empire but they approach it through careful planning one piece at a time. They open up trade with a world inside an empire, after the planet becomes close with them, the Tau offer friendship. If the group refuses then the game of politics continues and the Tau try again later. If the planet appears to resist them, the Tau send in the military as a show of force but keep rellying on diplomacy. If it becomes clear that diplo wont work, they began their military campaign.

Any novel featuring the Tau has the Tau performing this way (working on Diplo but if resistance occurs they have no problem invading) and their actions are detailed in several books (Cities of Death I recall has a particullar story of the Tau defeating Vostryans.)


Thats the one thing keeping some of the Tau hate in place, that at least they have an attitude of "Join or Die" and that is considered grimdark somewhat though its still leagues nicer than the Imperiums "Just Die" attitude. That and the Etherials could be mind-controling the Tau but thats major speculation and not fact.


Oh the Tau Codex has that Koloth Gorge Massarcre which has the Tau performing exactly how I mentioned. They offered the Humans a chance to join and later surrender and the humans refused and were killed to the man but thats not the best example sense the commander (Farsight?) was later declared a renegade [I realized this point is completely wrong but its close enough. They massacred the people of the planet Nimba and the Koloth Gorge battle was against the Imperium liberation fleet]


Oh I looked it up on Scribd. Page 1of the Tau codex. In short the Tau military leaders want to have a war on conquest against humanty but the Ethierals forbid it and instead want to conquer humanity from the inside (hearts and minds campaign) The Tau consider it their manifest destiny to destroy the Imperium and add humanity into iteslfs empire. Thats all in the Tau codex on that page.

So when I say, tau won't start a war with Protos, you said they would, then say of course they wouldn't . Well, that's what I said.

Then as examples you say "all novels" which is obviously wrong as it doesn't happen in all novels that I have read.
Then you say the Tau do it all the time because one Commander trying this got sacked immediately (BTW a Farsight follower, so not a Tau doctrine follower, and the same featured in City of Death).
Then you say a hypotetical Tau Empire without Ethereals would, but that quote just confirms that the current Tau Empire with Ethereals wouldn't.

See? No evidence. Just the usual made up fantasy by a Tau hater.
BTW if you read the article in my sig about utilitarianism (basically what "The Greater Good" is build around), you will start to understand, that killing everyone in sight is not what the tau leaders have in mind.

In an all-out invasion of Aiur the Tau would lose badly. On a unit-by-unit basis they're simply outmatched by the Protoss. Beyond that, the Protoss would be able to outmaneuver the Tau at almost every turn thanks to their superior FTL technology and their use of teleportation gates. It would be a brutal conflict, but in the end the Tau would suffer tremendous casualties and withdraw from the Protoss worlds.

Of course, I don't think that the Tau and the Protoss would ever actually go to war.

So when I say, tau won't start a war with Protos, you said they would, then say of course they wouldn't . Well, that's what I said.

Then as examples you say "all novels" which is obviously wrong as it doesn't happen in all novels that I have read.
Then you say the Tau do it all the time because one Commander trying this got sacked immediately (BTW a Farsight follower, so not a Tau doctrine follower, and the same featured in City of Death).
Then you say a hypotetical Tau Empire without Ethereals would, but that quote just confirms that the current Tau Empire with Ethereals wouldn't.

See? No evidence. Just the usual made up fantasy by a Tau hater.
BTW if you read the article in my sig about utilitarianism (basically what "The Greater Good" is build around), you will start to understand, that killing everyone in sight is not what the tau leaders have in mind.

The issue was that they dont have a join or die attitude which is what I was commenting on. That is exactly the attitude they have. Have they ever declared war on a huge empire? No I said they havnt because they havnt met an empire bigger than their's besides the Imperium. Would they declare war on the Protoss, I doubt that but if they did the example given is exactly how it would happen.

Thats weird because the novels ive read with them have the Tau performing these exact actions. In Ciaphas Cain they start with Diplo but when they encounter resistance from the civilian population they deploy their army. The Ultarmarines book has a full on invasion of the planet when they planet refuses to join them. In Fear the Allien or whatever its called has them perform this on a smaller scale battle (squad skrimish)

You asked for an example and I gave an example. I did say I know it wasnt the best example but it was an example.

I said nothing of the sort with the Ethereals. I said that the reason a lot of people dont like the Tau is that they arnt grimdark enough. The only thing that is grimdark about them is that they have this attitude of "Join or Die" (Which again shows they are the nicest of allt he 40k races when the next nicest is the Imperium's "Just die") and that the speculation if the Ethereals are mind controlling their people. I have no idea where you saw me talking about a hypothetical Tau Empire without Ethereals.

How about a page from the CODEX of the Tau which describes how 1) The Tau Military wants a war of conquest against humanity 2) The Ethereals want to destroy the Imperium by winning the hearts and minds of the human population (note. 2 is the prefered tactic of the Tau. Its called Diplomacy) Another example in the codex is how the Tau tried to use military force to get the Orks to joint he empire (clearly it failed).



I dont appreciate how you are just writing off everything Im saying with the simple excuse of "thats not true" and "he is a rebel." Im not attacking the Tau, Im not ranting about how I hate them (if I do or if I dont), Im just saying that the Tau have no problem using violence to get their objectives done and that their doctrine is "Join or die." If they REALLY were perfect people who never believed this, do you really think GW would have created them in their universe of "In the Grim dark future, there is only war.?"

The Tau look at other races and if they see good qualites that can be used in their empire they accept them with open arms. However they will not have anything resist them and will fight against anyone who opposes them. The entire point of the Damocles Crusade was the Tau were annexing former Imperial worlds. They see humanity with major potentional and want to add humanity to the Tau Empire because it could greatly further the Greater Good. However if the humans of the Imperium resist, they will use whatever means possible to defeat them.

its not a case of join or "die" though. Look at the bestus'in ( demiurg). they're "affiliated" with the tau, but are not members of the empire. this may change in the new codex, but at the moment, they're traders (they sold the tau ion cannon tech) and occassional allies in space, with 2 clans having been seen with them. Look at Kroot as well, who have various mercenary kindreds operating outside the remit of the tau empire, presumably with their knowledge (i always figure the etherials are happy to turn a blind eye, so long as the kroot in wuestion arent fighting tau) I

I can imagine the tau politics being a lot more diverse than simply asking you to "join" or "die". Its certainly true that if a world is deemed vital (through location, mineral wealth, population) then the tau will do whatever is needed to "persaude" them to join. Full on military action? Well, it depends on their strength, and how much their inclusion would benefit the empire against how much their destruction would weaken both the tau strategically/tactically, and the world itself. hey, no point fighting for a world if, in order to get it, you have to destroy it... If its a really tough proposition, some kind of "alliance", or friendship would be proposed. friendship for long enough will certainly lead to closer ties. perhaps joining against a common enemy? orks are everywhere, im sure joint military operations are possible... or you can slowly change their ways. an assassination here and there... mind control... who knows?

A world that lacks these traits? Well their inclusion may be a mere formality, but they may indeed be pretty much left to their own devices in a lot of ways.

then again, this is the 40kiverse. there are no "nice alien races". regetably, too often the tau ambassadors are probably killed, eaten and sacrificed (if lucky, in that order) and their enemies too eager to reach for their guns. aliens are generally not nice. what about the locatyle. the lacrymolar. hrud. y'he? ores'la? there is a race of parastitic and vampiric brainworms too. good luck trying to reason with them, and be friends! the tau will need to do what is necessary. there is only war, after all...

point being war is sadly common. too common. but join or die arent the only two, nor the most preferable options.

Okay that was well written Deadnight.

Yes Im sure it is a matter more diverse than simply ONLY those two options. As you said the term "join" can mean different things and it could always be not worth it to continue the effort of any discussion.

That doesnt necessarly disapprove what I was saying but it just put it into a more reasonable context.



Im not actually trying to pick a major fight. I was just saying that this suggestion wasnt as far fetch as it first seemed. Its fairly consistent with Tau actions in the past.

And I am actually surprised to see Tau losing 0_0

@galdos:

Galdos wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Nice try with your 15th or so Tau genocide thread. But that's not how Tau handle things.

No thats actually exactly what happens.

1.) I know what I said and everyone can just look it up on page one. I was saying that the scenario is unrealistic, you said it is not. Then you said it is. Don't try to hope that me and the readers are so dumb as to not know what is written on page one of this thread.

2.) In the Ciaphas Cain novel, the population celebrated the Tau presence. Later the tau leave the planet. No joining, no dying. Is that really your proof for the Tau's "join or die" attitude.

3.) The Ultramarine book "Courage and Honor" offers no background at all. It is just describing, how a Tau army full of drop ships and anti-grav vehicles fights desperately over a bridge, because they can't think of any other means to cross a river.

4.) The ethereals don't want to destroy the Imperium. That is complete nonsense showing that you have no idea of what the Tau race is about.

5.) The first incident the Tau meet the Orks is, when Orks attack their fleet at the Kroot home planet Pech. Tau defend themselves. Also obviously no example of Tau wanting the Orks to join their Empire.

Still no example. It is like trying to counter a "But everybody knows Obama is a damn commie" statement.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

BFG rules wrote:As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

1.) I know what I said and everyone can just look it up on page one. I was saying that the scenario is unrealistic, you said it is not. Then you said it is. Don't try to hope that me and the readers are so dumb as to not know what is written on page one of this thread.

2.) In the Ciaphas Cain novel, the population celebrated the Tau presence. Later the tau leave the planet. No joining, no dying. Is that really your proof for the Tau's "join or die" attitude.

3.) The Ultramarine book "Courage and Honor" offers no background at all. It is just describing, how a Tau army full of drop ships and anti-grav vehicles fights desperately over a bridge, because they can't think of any other means to cross a river.

4.) The ethereals don't want to destroy the Imperium. That is complete nonsense showing that you have no idea of what the Tau race is about.

5.) The first incident the Tau meet the Orks is, when Orks attack their fleet at the Kroot home planet Pech. Tau defend themselves. Also obviously no example of Tau wanting the Orks to join their Empire.

1) I said that if it did happen That is how it would play out. I did not expect it to happen but it is right along with what hey would do. I did do a poor job explaining my point on this one I agree and I apologize on that
2) The population celebrated them because of the hearts and minds/diplo tactic I said earlier. When the resistance was shown the Tau landed a military force to defend the land. They left because the world was becoming chaotic and consumed in Civil War, they had no interest in fighting to defend the world so they left. Going along with the other guys post of "not worth it" It does support my statemnt though
3) ... So in "Courage and Honor" The Tau invade a world that is resisting their influence. This is supporting me actually
4) "The Ethereals issued their instructions for the integration of the Human Imperium into the Tau Empire... no power so fracture could ultimately stand before the manifest destiny of the Tau" Tau Codex page 11
5) "The Tau fought many battles with the Greenskins before finally abandoing their attempts to subsume them into the empire." Tau Codex page 6

I have given you several examples.

Oh and read your own Codex