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CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't. I like my games to be fun and require some skill, thank you very much.
Which is why I hate Draigowing. That build is pretty much point and click.

I think this is pretty funny coming from an ork player. Lets see green tide oh we walk forward till we get into cc! Kanwall oh wait its the same! Battlewagons oh wait same again! Yes very complex it seems a point and click as well. Draigowing is not point and click. If youre out of position you lose since your walking and don't have 150 boyz swarming the board. lol Besides if my 1200 pt squad was easy to kill and didn't require your army to do so I'd say they were awfully dang overpriced don't you?

With my orks if i have a choice between a sure result at moderate power and a random result i'll ususally take the random one. It keeps the game interesting

No-one really remembers when your Kannons took down a rhino (or whatever) with a good squad inside, but everyone remembers when your SAG erases the rhino AND it's contents from existence..

I play DE, Orks, Daemons, BT. I can't honenstly think of anything in there i'd consider to be 'win-button' units, though some 'must have ' units are in there. Ravagers are hard to dislodge from a DE list, for example, but they don't make every list..

Can someone name me some of these "auto win" units?

Lotus wrote:The big drawback for a vanilla Space Marines list is that their troops choices suck

What? How do they suck? They do what they need to do. No they are nothing special but niether is your standard Guardsmen or an Eldar Guardian. I use at the very least 4 squads of Marines in any Marine army I play. They are your mainstay unit. They are what you need to win and will do that for you. I am just confused at the thinking behind this. Please explain I am intrigued. I do agree that the scouts are alitte lacking in this ed. with there drop in BS and WS. But Tactical squads?

Hi everyone. Sorry I bave not spoken but I have been busy. What I meant by auto wins was auto win tactics and auto include units such as Hive Guard for nids etc. Power gamibg abd lookung up competitive tactics online.

The question came.from.my new GK always doing the same thing. Having very few.models.for GK doesn't help either. It is just like looking at a walktbrough to me.

So that's all I want.to say. Discuss away.

As an Eldar, Tau, and CSM player, I have no 'auto-win' options.

I have a few decent units, like Obliterators or Plague Marines (overrated, but still decent), Broadsides and Pathfinders, and Fire Dragons (80pts for 5 BS4 meltaguns? Don't mind if I do!).

What really makes these armies effective, however, is synergy more than outright unit effectiveness. Dire Avengers don't look like much until they're bladestorming a Doomed target; a Holofielded Falcon with Spirit Stones seems like an expensive gunship until you stick it on an objective with a squad of avengers inside and watch your opponent fail to shift it time and time again.

Fire Warriors are subpar until they're firing with BS5 thanks to Pathfinder markerlights.

Chaos Possessed are crap until... erm... okay, you got me there, but my point stands.

Of course, nothing here is auto-win by any means, but it does give you an idea of what armies have going for them behind the scenes, as opposed to what the seperate units tell you.

As for taking these combinations, with CSM, Eldar, and Tau, there really aren't that many combinations available to you that can be effective, so if you want a competative army, you're going to be taking them a lot of the time. I like learning new combinations because it gives me a chance to try them out and replace the other ones, but also because if I want to be competative without having to have vast experience of the game and all of its armies, it's the only way to go.

To me, that's what makes these combinations different from units. TWC or Draigowing armies that use one unit to great effectiveness is just that, an army of 1 unit. You can mix and match to your heart's content, since usually these codices have a wealth of other competative options, even if they're not as competative.

With combinations like Eldar rely on, there's not a lot of room to manoeuvre. Replacing one unit could break the synergy of the whole army, or reduce the efficiency. When you have one unit that can be switched out at will, it's fine, but when you have one unit that is the lynchpin of an army, it's a lot harder to take it out on account of simply being too effective to keep fielding, since you're likely to come back to it when you exhaust all other options.

Deadshot wrote:Hi everyone. Sorry I bave not spoken but I have been busy. What I meant by auto wins was auto win tactics and auto include units such as Hive Guard for nids etc. Power gamibg abd lookung up competitive tactics online.

The question came.from.my new GK always doing the same thing. Having very few.models.for GK doesn't help either. It is just like looking at a walktbrough to me.

So that's all I want.to say. Discuss away.

Oh, that's what you meant? But that's not autowin. Autowin implies 90-100% chance of victory. Having Hive Guard certainly increases the chances of winning, but not to that point.

Sm standard statline hardly sucks. It's better than any other race for base troops, i think.

There may be a couple of troop units out there that are better in one stat or another, but that also have 3+ armour, special weapon and transport options?

Ascalam wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Daemons have been suboptimal for years(and so were Daemon Hunters)

We DH players learned to suck it up till the new codex came out. You'll just have to do the same.

I used to play pure GK DH. I know they deserved the powerboost (maybe a smidge overdone, but hey...) I'd still be playing GK now if i dodn't think the new codex was the most gonzoed pile of effluent Ward had ever turned out. The rules are strong, very strong, but they aren't the GK i played anymore, so I lost interest. Same thing that happened with Necrons, for me.

I don't mind losing with my daemons. I do insist on being allowed to deploy the fethers before I lose though I'll happily suck up losing as long as i get to move some models and roll some dice. My Oldcrons lost a lot, but they were my favourite army at the time.

It'd be like playing orks (my main army) and being told that the opposing army had Calgar, so you lose before you can put a model down.

Poor rules writing. Hopefully either 6th will change how it works, or the new Daemons dex will.

+1

GK players who stuck with their old underpowered DH codex deserved something better, but that doesn't give you the right to flip the world's biggest 'f-you loser!' to another army for no real reason!
You only need 30 marines with 'I-auto-win-quake' to stop a Daemon player from deploying a single model on a 6'x4' table.

Daemons don't suck, they're not bottom tier - except against GK's who have a million +1 advanagtes just freely handed to them.

I don't care if I lose, but I most definately care when I'm not even allowed to pick-up a single dice before I auot-lose to some sniveling little terd who thinks it's funny to run a broken & outright moronic gimmick that should never have made it to print!
I can take most anything in my codex and be competitive against any other army... Except Derp Knights who require the Daemon player to list tailor to some extent to at least attempt to put up a decent fight.

When the game becomes a chore to just simply put up with and finish as fast as possible, something's wrong. And that's how I feel almost every time I have to face GK's.

I dunno. I guess it's pretty good proof that I don't follow very many "winning" metas, when I hear about 'missile spam' and my 2,000pt SW army only has one missile launcher figure in it!

The big drawback for a vanilla Space Marines list is that their troops choices suck

Really? Are you sure they didn't stay the same while everything else got hit by the "new codex has to be awesome to make players buy more new stuff for the flavor of the month" bug? Otherwise they wouldn't be largely the same since 3rd edition, maybe even arguably 2nd(though that codex followed very different formats that are hard to compare) You say suck, I say solid.

Experiment 626 wrote:Except Derp Knights who require the Daemon player to list tailor to some extent to at least attempt to put up a decent fight.

Maybe you should think about kicking in the groin those GK players who field 30+ Warp Quake PAGK against you, because that is list tailoring. Seriously, do something about it, because you sound too angry for it to be healthy.
I'm not happier than you about this though, it's not fun to be the nemesis of a gimmicky opponent (if that whole "All the army has to Deep Strike, no alternative !" isn't a gimmick, then I don't know what is). The army arguably sold its soul in return for having options to make varied lists. In fact they even feel less anti-daemons than before, discounting Warp Quake.

Which is, to answer the OP, undoubtly the nearest thing 40k has to an auto-win in that specific match-up. My opinion being that anybody catching a GK player using that trick is morally entitled to force-feed him his codex.

I like to play fluffy armies, even if they have seemingly less competitive troops in them ,such as IG mortars and BT PA Sword Brethren. It really makes games seem so much more awesome.

Taking 30 PAGK is not list tailoring, because PAGK are a common unit. They not some gimmick unit or require some kind of special war gear, they are bog standard and simply by taking them you screw over several types of lists

Note that I said "Warp Quake PAGK".
Strike Squads are fine... to the point of fielding 30+ ? Why not , but you can't cover the table with them anyway ; no first-turn-shunt-quake dirty trick.
I like Interceptors but they are often considered a "soft" choice and unlikely to be deployed en masse.
Purifiers do not get Warp Quake.

Oh right, speaking of which, I hear Crowe makes for strong lists. I loathe him and what he stands for.

I know Purifiers don't have warp quake, I forgot the name of the Strike Squads when i wrote that

But my point still stands: Warp Quake is in no way "gimmicky" when it's a freebe on two already decent units (Most people would say interceptor are bad, but jump infantry as a whole are underappriciated)

Hyd wrote:Note that I said "Warp Quake PAGK".
Strike Squads are fine... to the point of fielding 30+ ? Why not , but you can't cover the table with them anyway ; no first-turn-shunt-quake dirty trick.
I like Interceptors but they are often considered a "soft" choice and unlikely to be deployed en masse.
Purifiers do not get Warp Quake.

Oh right, speaking of which, I hear Crowe makes for strong lists. I loathe him and what he stands for.

What Crowe stands for? You mean run around by himself? I heard Mephiston does the same. That he unlocks competitive army? Oh so like Vulcan or Logan, etc. Yea real new and unique character that Crowe. lol

Deadshot wrote:Hi everyone. Sorry I bave not spoken but I have been busy. What I meant by auto wins was auto win tactics and auto include units such as Hive Guard for nids etc. Power gamibg abd lookung up competitive tactics online.

The question came.from.my new GK always doing the same thing. Having very few.models.for GK doesn't help either. It is just like looking at a walktbrough to me.

So that's all I want.to say. Discuss away.

In this case - I avoid them. The Ineternet tells me, as a Tyranid player, I should be loading up on Hive Guard. 3 units of 2 or 2 units of 3. Maybe Zoanthropes, and no Venomthropes since they eat up an elite slot.. I should have a pair of Tervigons, two smallish Termagant units and Genestealers in my troops. My HQs should at least include 1 Tyranid prime. I shouldn't be using a Hive Tyrant in sub 1500 point games, Gargoyles are the only good fast attack choice and I should absolutely, positively stay away from anything not a Trygon in Heavy Support. This is because I will only ever face Space Wolves that can fire 25 missiles per turn, or Venomspam Dark Eldar, or whatever other list everyone runs because it won a tournament once.

I run a winged Hive Tyrant in 1000 point games, because I love the model and it's dead killy. I run a pair of hive Guard, because they are useful for taking down transports. I use Zoanthropes and Venomthropes, because I like them. My troops choices are Hormagaunts and Tyranid Warriors and not a Tervigon in sight (this is because there's no model though). I run Gargoyles because I like them, but I'm putting together a couple of broods of LW/BS and dual BS Shrikes. I run Carnifexes, and I've never felt they suck, though they are a tad overpriced.

I won't run Trygons for the forseeable future. They're good, and killy. I just prefer Carnifexes. I'll be running one Tervigon when the model releases because the model is awesome and it's a nice boost to a Fexstar being able to throw FNP on them all. I'll be running a Tyrannofex when the model is released as well. Again, I'll be running dual BS and LW/BS Shrikes when I've made them.

I really don't care what anyone tells me are the best units to run. If I did, I'd be having a really boring time with the game.

The thing is though;
- 2x 5 man strikes is pure gold for holding oobjectives cheaply in a GK army if you don't have Coteaz. A single 10-man squad does the same thanks to combat squads. Either way, it's very viable and a good reason for any GK army to include a few strikes.

- 2x 10 man strike squads = lots of dakka and it gets S5 for reletively cheap when compared to the specialist units like purifyers or termies of either variety. Again, pretty solid pts/model milage for anyone who's running a non-draigo/crowe list.
It's also good number support if you like to run a pally deathstar, and you can take cheap rhinos for the speed boost

- 2x 5 man or 1x 10 man intercepter squad fills the hole of GK's being slow. Shunt turn 1 right behind a nasty battle tank and unload a psycannon = likely dead tank! (or at least very gimped tank)
Intercepters also are a nifty hard counter to SW missilefang spam - those puppies are forced to deal with your knights right away or else sacrifice 1-2 squads of missiles. Either way, the GK wins; a few men survive & charge the fangs, or else the bulk of the GK army has avoided most of a shooting phase and thus gain 'free' movement!



Both those squads come with 'dick quake' for free!
Both those squads are highly viable & competitive when you think outside of the netlisting copy/paste fad.
Both those squads make Daemon players simply cry.

Hence why I simply don't play against GK's with my Daemons as it's very likely not going to be a fun game.

I've never seen an "auto-win" army before. Any army can be beaten (or at least drawn) by a well-rounded force with average luck so long as you keep focused on the missions.

If what you're talking about is netlists, yes, they are stronger than your average list, but no, they're certainly not unbeatable, and certainly still require skill to work properly. Netlists work well in tournaments, but in real games of 40k tend to seriously struggle against those kinds of lists that are absent at tournaments for other reasons. Which is what you would expect, actually, as most netlists are tailored specifically to work with tournament meta, and so don't preform as well outside of that environment.

As for fielding things myself, I've never felt that I needed a certain unit or I wouldn't possibly be able to win, nor have I ever come across a unit that if I took it, I no longer really had to try, but kept on just winning anyways.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't. I like my games to be fun and require some skill, thank you very much.
Which is why I hate Draigowing. That build is pretty much point and click.

Draigowing is actually fething awful. It's slow, easy to avoid, and if you have anything high strength, low AP shooting you can cut through them without too much difficulty. Nids and Orks will have a hell of a time with that army, but almost everyone else has some common units that can ruin a Paladin list's day, if not just outrun them and pepper them from a distance.

See, I do agree Experiment 626. These are fine troops in their own right and I think they are underrated. That might be the reason why I find it suspicious. At any rate, one would realize the potential for screwing daemons when taking so much quakers ; maybe it's not automatically list tailoring, but ruining the fun for the opponent just because you can is not better.

Draigo, what I meant is that Crowe smells a bit too much like cheese to me with his Incorruptible Pure Pureness™ turned up to eleven and cheesy list option.