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This is the story that finally drove home to me that the Emperor is nothing but Josef Stalin with psychic powers. The fool is evil. EVIL.
As for the story itself, it read like some smart-aleck high-school brat's essay on the necessity of atheism. Shelley did a better job of it in the 19th century, and still wasn't convincing. And McNeill is, of course, no where near the writer Shelley was.
"Word to your moms, I came to drop bombs." -- House of Pain
LordOfTheSloths wrote:This is the story that finally drove home to me that the Emperor is nothing but Josef Stalin with psychic powers. The fool is evil. EVIL.
As for the story itself, it read like some smart-aleck high-school brat's essay on the necessity of atheism. Shelley did a better job of it in the 19th century, and still wasn't convincing. And McNeill is, of course, no where near the writer Shelley was.
I think you missed the point. It's made clear that the Emperor is just as bad as the religious figures he hates. He's even launching his own Crusades for gawd's sake.
DeffDred wrote:I mean, come on, a wooden structure, dedicated to an incredibly outdated god, standing in a wasteland?
No water on Earth but they found timber that hadn't rot, dried, burned or de-atomized? This is a future where war has almost never ended on Earth.
The 40K universe is science fantasy, pure and simple. It has never been realistic in any meaningful sense.
For me, I like the story as an interesting morality fable. It may never even have happened, but could, for example, be a tale of one of the old religions that was written down and is kept by the Inquisition. I don't think the lack of realism detracts from that. Your mileage may vary, of course.
In a since though, I think the emperor could be a bit more justified in his utter hate of religion than people could be today, the gods of the warp have a real and significant presence and mass worship of them results in catastrophe.
Its worth pointing out the Emperor's Crusade was to unite humanity as one, for mutual defence against the great evil of the galaxy - chaos. This couldnt be done without sacrifice, only the Emperor truely knows or understands what its all about, everyone else is just a pawn in the grand plan.
The Crusade wasnt about conquering a land to prove one religion was better than another.
As previous posters have stated, the Emperor plans are millenium long (beyond our 80 years lifespan of understanding) and all about humanity's survival.
The ultimate irony of it all, is its the belief in the emperor as a god which unites the IOM and not the emperors vision of mutual survival.
The Chaos Gods implied to Horus, that this was the Emperors plan all along, which lead to Horus beginning the Heresy.
If the Emperor was ever to awaken, his reaction to 40k would be interesting indeed.
Just to clarify a minor side point, the Emperor is as old as Khorne and is certainly older than Slaanesh... as for Nurgle and Tzeentch, I'm not so sure.
So to say that the Chaos Gods are older than the Emperor is wrong. He was around when the Slann taught the Eldar space travel for crying out loud!
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+ Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2 One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners
Just to clarify a minor side point, the Emperor is as old as Khorne and is certainly older than Slaanesh... as for Nurgle and Tzeentch, I'm not so sure.
So to say that the Chaos Gods are older than the Emperor is wrong. He was around when the Slann taught the Eldar space travel for crying out loud!
The Chaos Gods are both always and never. Slaanesh was around before he was "born".
I believe the Eldar could travel in space before Humans evolved from the muck of Earths oceans.
And the Ancient/Old ones aren't Slaan. Slaan were an older race from RT are. They've been retconned.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:The historical ignorance of the writer was almost frightening. Certainly historically wars have been fought in the name of religion, but relatively few of them. Millions tortured and killed? Really? He might have been confusing Christianity with Communism.
Mediaeval scientists persecuted, tortured and burned for affirming a particular cosmology? Really? Name five.
I guess the writer had read The God Delusion. That level of mingled arrogance and ignorance is a dead give-away.
Granted that Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Phot, etc., killed more people "freeing them" from religion than all the religious wars put together, but the emperor may, in fact, be lying about this to Uriah just to make his point.
I think that the emperor's naivete, however, extends more from the idea that, no matter what caused humanity its present troubles, "Don't worry, I can fix 'em. I'm a 20,000 year old super-being." Well, maybe, but Chaos, in whatever form, is far older than that, and has much more broad reaching experience.
For me, the point was that the emperor can't kill god. If god isn't real, maybe he can be forced into becoming god, but god is necessary to what we are. Getting rid of him would be getting rid of humanity.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:The historical ignorance of the writer was almost frightening. Certainly historically wars have been fought in the name of religion, but relatively few of them. Millions tortured and killed? Really? He might have been confusing Christianity with Communism.
Mediaeval scientists persecuted, tortured and burned for affirming a particular cosmology? Really? Name five.
I guess the writer had read The God Delusion. That level of mingled arrogance and ignorance is a dead give-away.
Granted that Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Phot, etc., killed more people "freeing them" from religion than all the religious wars put together, but the emperor may, in fact, be lying about this to Uriah just to make his point.
I think that the emperor's naivete, however, extends more from the idea that, no matter what caused humanity its present troubles, "Don't worry, I can fix 'em. I'm a 20,000 year old super-being." Well, maybe, but Chaos, in whatever form, is far older than that, and has much more broad reaching experience.
For me, the point was that the emperor can't kill god. If god isn't real, maybe he can be forced into becoming god, but god is necessary to what we are. Getting rid of him would be getting rid of humanity.
While i applaud your desire to oppose the all too common "Hitler was an atheist therefore atheists are Hitler" ( sadly you forgot the good old Stalin was an atheist and therefore all atheists are stalinists, grr, how i hate this one ) misconception your idea that merely posting a number of links is enough to bolster some kind of argumentation makes you look like a bit foolish.
While religious fervour does indeed play a role for most of these attrocities it is the height of idiocy to ignore their political dimensions. So if the carriongod claims that "politics has slain it's thousands but religion has slain millions" then his understanding of the matter is wholy insufficient because all too often both were one and the same. A wiser man would have admited that blind adherence to dogma, no matter if it is the believe in some skygod who wants you to kill your fellow people because they believe in a different skygod, some ranting austrian who wants you to commit atrocities for zhe german masterrehce or some tyrant in golden armour who demands that you kill those who do not wish to submit to his "wise" rule, has slain millions.
But of course the carriongod cannot do such a thing because, like so many tyrants before him, he alone knows what is best for his subjects
As i said before, while McNeills story is not a total loss his choice of arguments for the carriongod was at times and without any necessity ( that is, a bit more research would have helped ) too weak.
This reflects porely on a character who is suposedly a genius and therefore weakens the entire story. Ah well, i have read much worse from McNeill and it is merely a Black Library story so perhaps i expected a bit too much.
I enjoyed the story very much, makes me realise all the more how much of a horrible, arrogant person the Emperor actually is (every description I have read of him so far is extremely similar).
Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:All I can say is... thank you vodo40k...
Zweischneid wrote:No way man. A Space Marine in itself is scary. But a Marine WITHOUT helmet wears at least 3-times as much plot-armour as a Marine with helmet. And heaven forbid if the Marine would also happen to have an intimidating looking, vertical scar. Then you're surly boned. Those guys are the worst. Not a chance I'd say.
Lobukia wrote:So to say that the Chaos Gods are older than the Emperor is wrong. He was around when the Slann taught the Eldar space travel for crying out loud!
I said Chaos is older than the Emperor. We are given the idea that eight arrow chaos has always been there, and the present crop of gods is just the present crop of gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also guys, please let's keep this one on point and not go into a believers-vs-atheists free for all.
Thanks
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/26 00:22:13
Something's bothering me...that fresco on the ceiling. The first part..."naked figures...in a magic garden"...the Garden of Eden, no problem, but the second and third: "..a golden knight fighting a silver dragon..."...how in Throne's name did the artist perceive the battle between the Emperor and the Void Dragon? "A being of light surrounded by a halo of golden machinery"...even more disturbing is this allusion to the Emperor on the Golden Throne. Was the artist a psyker and she perceived/foresaw certain things? And that last part, is it related to the Terminus Decree - the one that the Grey Knights will use to shut the Throne down once the Imperium is ashes and Mankind is doomed? Because the "being of light" and the Terminus Decree implies that the Emperor is just waiting for someone to shut the Golden Throne so He can rebuild or destroy everything.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
