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Best 40K short story I ever read, largely because it is more than just, "Me marine. You ork? Me kill!" It actually had an interesting discussion on philosophy and theology going on. Seems to have been a pretty simple, bash-the-strawman-church argument, but it was deceptively more than that.

Anyway, I won't waste any more electrons unless I get a response, but, I'd love to discuss it.

Yeah it was a pretty good story. It was clear the author also read Richard Dawkings the God Delusion.

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:Yeah it was a pretty good story. It was clear the author also read Richard Dawkings the God Delusion.

What I really liked about it was that, even though the Emperor confounds Uriah at every turn, in the end, Uriah is right, and the Emperor is wrong. Not within the confines of the story, but as proven out over the next ten thousand years or so.

Ultimately, the Emperor's grand vision runs into something (Chaos) that he can't beat. His vaunted primarchs are turned against him, he enters a living death in the golden throne, and humanity returns to barbarism, worshipping the very man who was going to save them from gods.

It seems to make the point (whether McNeill thinks so or not is another question) that man needs god, and whether or not god is real is ultimately irrelevant. Imagining that some super genius could maneuver man into the position where he no longer needs god is also meaningless. Sooner or later, the super genius is going to run into a problem that even he can't solve, and then man is left with no answers.

At this point, man will always return to his oldest answer.

Which is very much in keeping with the pessimistic, dystopian vision which has always been central to 40k.

As long as he isn't writing about the Ultramarines, Graham McNeill's stories are usually pretty good. He's got a good head for characters.

Where can I find this story?

It's in a collection of HH short stories. I don't remember the title, though.

"Tales of Heresy".

The story is actualy not that good. The oh so wise Emprah was, at times, depicted as pretty dense ( but the crusades were bad and therefore religion is bad!...realy? did we recently watch the godawful history channel or something? /o\ ), the big twist was unnecessary and felt somewhat forced. A rational argumentation against the supernatural, as it has been partialy attempted, doesn't require such a rather cheap twist to be convincing.

I quite liked it, but a part of that could be just that I read it just before Legion and some of the themes seemed to slot together nicely. As for the story, I didn't really think there was a twist at all, and it was nice to see that not everyone could be forced under the Emperor's thumb.

KingDeath wrote:The story is actualy not that good. The oh so wise Emprah was, at times, depicted as pretty dense ( but the crusades were bad and therefore religion is bad!...realy? did we recently watch the godawful history channel or something? /o\ ), the big twist was unnecessary and felt somewhat forced. A rational argumentation against the supernatural, as it has been partialy attempted, doesn't require such a rather cheap twist to be convincing.

I didn't catch the twist either. What do you mean?

Kaldor wrote:Where can I find this story?

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Last_Church

Zinderneuf wrote:

KingDeath wrote:The story is actualy not that good. The oh so wise Emprah was, at times, depicted as pretty dense ( but the crusades were bad and therefore religion is bad!...realy? did we recently watch the godawful history channel or something? /o\ ), the big twist was unnecessary and felt somewhat forced. A rational argumentation against the supernatural, as it has been partialy attempted, doesn't require such a rather cheap twist to be convincing.

I didn't catch the twist either. What do you mean?

The priest's initial religious experience at the killing fields of Gaduare .

KingDeath wrote:

Zinderneuf wrote:

KingDeath wrote:The story is actualy not that good. The oh so wise Emprah was, at times, depicted as pretty dense ( but the crusades were bad and therefore religion is bad!...realy? did we recently watch the godawful history channel or something? /o\ ), the big twist was unnecessary and felt somewhat forced. A rational argumentation against the supernatural, as it has been partialy attempted, doesn't require such a rather cheap twist to be convincing.

I didn't catch the twist either. What do you mean?

The priest's initial religious experience at the killing fields of Gaduare

I see. That was relatively straightforward, I thought.

Zinderneuf wrote:"Me marine. You ork? Me get killed!"

Oy fixed dat fer ya yoo stoopid humie

I liked the story, I don't think the Emperor come across as stupid. He was in the process of taking the reigns of humanity in order to save it.

He did already know about Chaos and also knew he would end up in the golden thrown before he went to fight Horus..

I don't think his plans were selfish he was just trying to protect humanity against the primordial annihilator.

I think that he may have seen something the Cabal didn't and has a plan to defeat chaos without losing humanity in the process. Even if he dies in the process...

obsidianaura wrote:I liked the story, I don't think the Emperor come across as stupid. He was in the process of taking the reigns of humanity in order to save it.

He did already know about Chaos and also knew he would end up in the golden thrown before he went to fight Horus..

I don't think his plans were selfish he was just trying to protect humanity against the primordial annihilator.

I think that he may have seen something the Cabal didn't and has a plan to defeat chaos without losing humanity in the process. Even if he dies in the process...

The Carriongod comes across as stupid because his argumentation is, at least in part, naive and simplified to a degree which hurts the point he is trying to make.
Even if we keep in mind that the false Emprah is a hipocrit, from a suposed genius i tend to expect more than primitive highschool "religion is the worst thing ever cause people killed/ did stupid things in it's name " level argumentation.
Thankfully not the entire argumentation relied on such naive examples.

KingDeath wrote: i tend to expect more than primitive highschool "religion is the worst thing ever cause people killed/ did stupid things in it's name " level argumentation.

Perhaps you should re-read this story as you're grossly misinformed about the contents.

The historical ignorance of the writer was almost frightening. Certainly historically wars have been fought in the name of religion, but relatively few of them. Millions tortured and killed? Really? He might have been confusing Christianity with Communism.

Mediaeval scientists persecuted, tortured and burned for affirming a particular cosmology? Really? Name five.

I guess the writer had read The God Delusion. That level of mingled arrogance and ignorance is a dead give-away.

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/ncr/2009/10/gods-philosophers-how-medieval-world.html

http://www.4shared.com/document/mFINjQmB/TheIrrationalAtheist.html

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:The historical ignorance of the writer was almost frightening. Certainly historically wars have been fought in the name of religion, but relatively few of them. Millions tortured and killed? Really? He might have been confusing Christianity with Communism.

Mediaeval scientists persecuted, tortured and burned for affirming a particular cosmology? Really? Name five.

I guess the writer had read The God Delusion. That level of mingled arrogance and ignorance is a dead give-away.

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/ncr/2009/10/gods-philosophers-how-medieval-world.html

http://www.4shared.com/document/mFINjQmB/TheIrrationalAtheist.html

Granted that Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Phot, etc., killed more people "freeing them" from religion than all the religious wars put together, but the emperor may, in fact, be lying about this to Uriah just to make his point.

I think that the emperor's naivete, however, extends more from the idea that, no matter what caused humanity its present troubles, "Don't worry, I can fix 'em. I'm a 20,000 year old super-being." Well, maybe, but Chaos, in whatever form, is far older than that, and has much more broad reaching experience.

For me, the point was that the emperor can't kill god. If god isn't real, maybe he can be forced into becoming god, but god is necessary to what we are. Getting rid of him would be getting rid of humanity.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:The historical ignorance of the writer was almost frightening. Certainly historically wars have been fought in the name of religion, but relatively few of them. Millions tortured and killed? Really? He might have been confusing Christianity with Communism.

Mediaeval scientists persecuted, tortured and burned for affirming a particular cosmology? Really? Name five.

I guess the writer had read The God Delusion. That level of mingled arrogance and ignorance is a dead give-away.

http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/ncr/2009/10/gods-philosophers-how-medieval-world.html

http://www.4shared.com/document/mFINjQmB/TheIrrationalAtheist.html

I'm thinking he wasn't just referring to the religious wars etc. that have happened in history up to this point (2012), but alluding to wars and atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion at some point between our time and the time that the story took place, around 20,000 years from now if not more? I could have my years wrong but I'm thinking that in the at least 20,000 years between our time and the time of the story you can't deny at least the possibility that many more atrocities and wars were committed/waged in the name of religion. I haven't read the story in a while though so if the author was specifically relying on our time period feel free to correct me

Th3 Gh0st wrote:
I'm thinking he wasn't just referring to the religious wars etc. that have happened in history up to this point (2012), but alluding to wars and atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion at some point between our time and the time that the story took place, around 20,000 years from now if not more?

He mostly seemed focussed on ones that have already occurred by our time. He mentions the Crusades, for instance (very one sidedly, but that's no surprise), and if I read it correctly the destruction of the Cathars.

But yeah, that argument is dumb.

This is an excellent story. You know, I didn't think any HH book could do the Emperor justice, but this story actually did well.

LoneLictor wrote:This is an excellent story. You know, I didn't think any HH book could do the Emperor justice, but this story actually did well.

It was a surprising find. 40K fiction tends to have a reputation of being "bolter porn", but this was a thoughtful story. Was it Anna Karenina? No. But a good read, and the best 40K fiction I've read so far.

Really nice concept and strong execution in my opinion. The Emperor is actually portrayed as a bad guy for once and while it's kinda religion bashey I really loved the bit where Uriah realised that he had no regrets in following a God based upon a false vision and prefers to stay in his service rather than following the actual God revealed to him. Just a nice concept that the Emperor is so powerful that he's 'killed' God and taken his place but is still rejected by an old and lowly priest.

Equally I think the weakness of the Emperor's argument and his resort to revealing himself again rather than winning Uriah over through faith show's how the God Emperor is far less than the God he's deposing.
Ohh and I'm agnostic so please don't read any defence or attack on religion into that

yani wrote:Ohh and I'm agnostic so please don't read any defence or attack on religion into that

Actually, I was kinda scared that this would turn into a religious war, and that I might be seen as a troll, since I'm so new here.

I was delighted to find that everybody seems to be sharing in the conversation, and no torches have yet been lit.

Yeah, this thread has been quite civil. Oh carp, we jinxed it!

In my opinion, this story showed that militant atheists are just as bad as the radicals and fundamentalists that they hate. The Emperor is launching his own crusades, despite acknowledging how violent and horrible early crusades were. And I don't intend to offend any atheists, I myself am an atheist. Every belief always has it's fanatics.

It's a wonderful story. Very well paced and written.

The Emperor is, like many see their god, ineffable. His plans are to broad and complex to be understood. He is all knowing and seemingly all powerful.

The question must be asked, if a being is as wise and powerful as a god, are they then a god?

Miraclefish wrote:It's a wonderful story. Very well paced and written.

The Emperor is, like many see their god, ineffable. His plans are to broad and complex to be understood. He is all knowing and seemingly all powerful.

The question must be asked, if a being is as wise and powerful as a god, are they then a god?

Well, as the carriongod's at times ( some arguments were actualy quite rational ) naive argumentation ( crusades; cathar wars; that poisoned pond; the Inquisition, which one to be exact? ) clearly shows he is far from all knowing.
Instead he appears to be quite confused at times, switching from good and rational argumentation ( debunking the idiotic myth that the greatest examples of art have to be divinely inspired, clearing up that assumed positive effects of religious believe say nothing about the actual validity of that believe and quite a few more examples ) to rather idiotic blathering at a regretably low niveau.
I am not certain if this was McNeills intention or if he simply made a mistake ( perhaps the author simply didn't know any better? ) with some of the carriongod's less than stellar arguments in favour of his secular policy.

The only thing I didn't like about it were the Emperors last words.

They seemed a bit off to me.