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ToBeWilly wrote:
Now, with all that being said, this argument is irrelevant. XV8's cannot be equipped with Heavy Weapons, and XV88 Broadsides are not Jump Infantry (jetpack).

It's not irrelevant because the XV88s with A.S.S. have relentless granted by SnP. Your argument is that the suit rule that allows for rapid fire weapons to be fired after moving cancels out relentless on crisis suits. You're getting hung up on where they got it. That's not actually relevant. Both of them have relentless and in both cases it came from a line in the BRB.

Broadsides have literally the same rule and are granted relentless by the A.S.S. By your logic, the broadsides should not be able to benefit from the A.S.S. since "relentless" is cancelled out by the rapid fire suit rule.

It is seriously like you are not actually reading my posts. Stop strawmanning me and read what I am actually arguing. 2 different units have relentless granted by the BRB. Those same 2 units have the rule which you are claiming cancels relentless. You need to apply this to both or neither.

The Tau Empire codex has been superceded by the newer rules in 5th edition.

Okay, Kilkrazy, are you asserting that even without an A.S.S., that the XV 8 Crisis Suits have the Relentless rule?

Of course they do. It's in the BRB plain as day. The best you can do is argue that they don't get to benefit from it, but they clearly have relentless.

Interesting food for thought. The rift of contention here tells me that I should clarify this with tournament organizers ahead of time so I know how the chips are going to fall.

XV-8s have relentless because they are jump infantry, however their specific description limits what they get out of Relentless.

Jefffar wrote:XV-8s have relentless because they are jump infantry, however their specific description limits what they get out of Relentless.

Well here's the thing. XV-88s with A.S.S. have relentless because they are slow and purposeful. They have the same specific limit on what they get out of relentless that crisis suits do.

This means that if we accept that XV8s do not get to move and fire heavy weapons, then we also must (if we are being intellectually honest) stop taking A.S.S. on our broadsides because they don't do anything but make you slow.

Because both suits have the same line of rules counteracting relentless and both the jet infrantry rule and the slow and purposeful rule give relentless, we have to treat both of them in the same manner, whichever manner that is.

No, you treat the more specific case

XV-88 cannot move and fire heavy weapons. That is the general rule for ALL 88s. ASS speciically grants Relentless again, and this overrides the usual requirement as it is now the more specific rule

Rented Tritium wrote:It's not irrelevant because the XV88s with A.S.S. have relentless granted by SnP.

Correct. Although, it is the A.S.S. that is granting it SnP,

Rented Tritium wrote:Your argument is that the suit rule that allows for rapid fire weapons to be fired after moving cancels out relentless on crisis suits.

No, the following sentence tells me Relentless can't be used. I never said cancels, they just can't use it. It is specifically unable to fire Heavy Weapons in the same turn that it moves. Unless you have a piece of wargear that has a more specific rule. (like the A.S.S.)

Rented Tritium wrote:You're getting hung up on where they got it. That's not actually relevant. Both of them have relentless and in both cases it came from a line in the BRB.

It is relevant. Some rules are more specific then others. All Jump Infantry (jetpack) generally have Relentless. All XV8 are Jump Infantry (jetpack) that specifically can't move and fire Heavy Weapons, unless, they have a piece of wargear that is more specific. Like the A.S.S. that specifically gives the bearer SnP.

Rented Tritium wrote:Broadsides have literally the same rule and are granted relentless by the A.S.S.

No, they have SnP from the A.S.S. They are different rules. This is nitpicky, I know, but they are two different rules.

Rented Tritium wrote:By your logic, the broadsides should not be able to benefit from the A.S.S. since "relentless" is cancelled out by the rapid fire suit rule.

No, the A.S.S. is more specific. All XV88s can fire Rapid Fire weapons to full effect, even when they move, but not Heavy Weapons. All XV88s with A.S.S.(which is more specific then all XV88s) have SnP.

Rented Tritium wrote:It is seriously like you are not actually reading my posts.

I am reading them, I just apparently, don't understand them.

Rented Tritium wrote:Stop strawmanning me and read what I am actually arguing.

I felt it was an accurate analogy. Using a general rule to override a more specific one.

Rented Tritium wrote:2 different units have relentless granted by the BRB. Those same 2 units have the rule which you are claiming cancels relentless. You need to apply this to both or neither.

I am applying the more specific rule to both.

Although, not implicit, this FAQ tells us GW doesn't think any Battlesuits can use Relentless without A.S.S.
Q. If a unit with advanced stabilization systems also has
Marker Drones, can the drones remain stationary to fire
their markerlights while the Battlesuits move using their
advanced stabilization systems? (p25)
A. No, since models in the unit moved, the drones, which
do not have a stabilization system, may not fire a heavy
weapon.
Here's the link to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you treat the more specific case

XV-88 cannot move and fire heavy weapons. That is the general rule for ALL 88s. ASS speciically grants Relentless again, and this overrides the usual requirement as it is now the more specific rule

This does not follow.

In both cases, the rule in the codex is giving something in the BRB. In both cases the thing in the BRB then gives it relentless. There's no difference. Layering doesn't matter here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The A.S.S. is not more specific than the jet infantry rule. In both cases, relentless is being granted by the BRB, not by the codex.

No, youre not understanding specific > general

Do all 88s have an ASS? No. Thus an ASS equipped 88 IS a more specific instance - by definition.
It doesnt matter that in both cases you are obtaining rules from the BRB

Rented Tritium wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you treat the more specific case

XV-88 cannot move and fire heavy weapons. That is the general rule for ALL 88s. ASS speciically grants Relentless again, and this overrides the usual requirement as it is now the more specific rule

This does not follow.

In both cases, the rule in the codex is giving something in the BRB. In both cases the thing in the BRB then gives it relentless. There's no difference. Layering doesn't matter here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The A.S.S. is not more specific than the jet infantry rule. In both cases, relentless is being granted by the BRB, not by the codex.

The A.S.S is an upgrade that grants a USR, that is more specific then simply having it intrinsically.


But XV-88s are NOT Jet Infantry. they are regular infantry. Only XV-8s and Stealth Suits are Jet Infantry.

The XV-8s have a specific rule that prevents them from firing heavy weapons after they move. They still have relentless, but their specific XV-8 special rule cancels the general rule.

Stealth Suits don't have the XV-8 special rule that prevents them from moving and firing heavy weapons(and being stationary for rapid fire) so they get to use the general rule granted to them by being Jet Infantry.

Tritium, I appreciate the tenacity with which you have tried to help me, but unfortunately, I found another point which settles the matter once and for all. On page 52, the sidebar seems to indicate that the modifications to the infantry type (in this case, Jump Infantry [Jet pack]) in the Codex will take precedence. If a Jet pack equipped unit is further modified by taking an A.S.S. then the additional modification imposed (again) by the Codex will take precedence over THAT.

(Thanks for everyone with the help.)