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Okay...the Crisis and Broadside suits both give the ability to move and still fire Rapid Fire weapons as though you were relentless. The Crisis suits are also jet infantry, which gives the Relentless special rule. Can Crisis suits therefore fire heavy weapons as though they were stationary? If so, is the Advanced Stabilization System only intended for Broadsides?

[quote~Jimsolo]Can Crisis suits therefore fire heavy weapons as though they were stationary?

Broadsides are not Relentless. They are unit type: Infantry. And because of the XV88 armour, can fire Rapid Fire weapons as if stationary. If you want them to be able to move and fire Heavy Weapons, you need to take the Advanced stabilization system.

Edit: misread the OP. Yes, Crisis suits can move and fire Heavy Weapons, if they had access to them. Per the Relentless USR.

Ghaz wrote:[quote~Jimsolo]Can Crisis suits therefore fire heavy weapons as though they were stationary?

Its sort of a moot point since a Crisis suit doesn't have an option to take a Heavy weapon.

Forgeworld would then have their own rules. There ar no Heavy weapons for a Crisis suit in the codex.

Crisis Suit Jet Packs specifically say they cannot move and fire heavy weapons

Which they normally dont have anyways

XV88's are not Jet packs though

XV9's use the normal jet pack rules iirc

I subscribe to Advanced Tau Tactica's ruling on it here:

http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12434&hilit=relentless

TL;DR
XV8s must be "stationary to fire them(heavy weapons" as per codex rules)
The Relentless USR, conferred by being jetpack infantry, allows XV8s to fire "counting as stationary."

XV-8 Team Leaders can carry Markerlights which are heavy weapons.

I think it would have something to do with the Tau Codex being part of 4th Ed...

Thanks everyone. The whole reason I brought the question up was due to a mistake in my reading. I confused 'Missle Pod' and 'Smart Missle System.' My bad, my bad. I knew the Broadsides couldn't fire on the move, since they aren't jet infantry.

However, the Stealth suits ARE jet infantry, AND have the ability to take a heavy weapon (the markerlight). They can still fire their markerlight on the move, yes? I ask because it just seems counter-intuitive to me that the higher-quality the suit, the less firing mobility it has.

kenshin620 wrote:Crisis Suit Jet Packs specifically say they cannot move and fire heavy weapons

Ya, you are correct. Missed that last sentence. Haven't look at Tau in a long time.

This is a case of specific over general. The general rule for Jump Infantry (jet pack) is they are Relentless.
The more specific rule for XV-8 'Crisis' suits says they must remain stationary to fire Heavy Weapons. So, the more specific rule overrides the general one.

Granted, Willy, but it's all a moot point since the X-8's don't have heavy weapons. The reason I brought it up, in the interest of academic curiosity, was because I didn't know if "specific versus general" trumped "4th edition vs 5th edition."

In my view, 5th edition rules overrule 4th edition rules.

The 5th edition gives the relentless rule to jetpack jump infantry. Tau battle suits are the only units of that type in the game. It's difficult to argue that they should not have that rule.

I don't know how many people play it one way or the other. It might be interesting to have a poll.

Kilkrazy wrote:In my view, 5th edition rules overrule 4th edition rules.

Then I have been cheating with my Dark Angels for the last 4 years(?). Until the latest FAQ's my Land Speeders and Attack Bikes have been scoring, according to the codex. The 5th edition rule book clearly states only troops can be a scoring unit.

Specific over general is, IMO, the easiest and cleanest way to handle contradictions.

Newer over older leaves, I believe, to many things open for debate. Take all the different Space Marine Codexes, they have alot of the same equipment, that until recently, didn't function the same way. And, some equipment that has the same name, and purposely functions differently. Like the Blood Angel's Rhinos. According to newer over older all Rhinos should be Fast. Instead, specific over general tells us only Blood Angel's Rhinos should be Fast. Which, I believe, is the way it was intended.

Okay, so, to sum up:

XV-88's (Broadsides) are not Relentless, and never were, despite being able to fire Rapid Fire weapons as though stationary. The only way to fire a heavy weapon with them is to get the Advanced Stabilization System. (Which I dont think I can abbreviate under the tyranny of the profanity filter.)

XV-8's (Crisis Suits) are not Relentless, despite being Jump Infantry (Jet Pack), although they can fire Rapid Fire weapons as though stationary. The inability to fire Heavy weapons is inconsequential, since they cannot take any Heavy weapons.

Stealth Suits are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) and since no specific rule in the description of the Stealth Suit says otherwise, they can fire the only Heavy weapon they have access to (Markerlights) on the move.

Did I miss anything or still have something wrong?

Jimsolo wrote:Okay, so, to sum up:

XV-88's (Broadsides) are not Relentless, and never were, despite being able to fire Rapid Fire weapons as though stationary. The only way to fire a heavy weapon with them is to get the Advanced Stabilization System. (Which I dont think I can abbreviate under the tyranny of the profanity filter.)

XV-8's (Crisis Suits) are not Relentless, despite being Jump Infantry (Jet Pack), although they can fire Rapid Fire weapons as though stationary. The inability to fire Heavy weapons is inconsequential, since they cannot take any Heavy weapons.

Stealth Suits are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) and since no specific rule in the description of the Stealth Suit says otherwise, they can fire the only Heavy weapon they have access to (Markerlights) on the move.

Did I miss anything or still have something wrong?

I believe you are correct on all counts.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't know how many people play it one way or the other. It might be interesting to have a poll.

Nobody plays it one way or the other. You can't. The distinction is purely academic.

Jimsolo wrote:XV-88's (Broadsides) are not Relentless, and never were, despite being able to fire Rapid Fire weapons as though stationary. The only way to fire a heavy weapon with them is to get the Advanced Stabilization System. (Which I dont think I can abbreviate under the tyranny of the profanity filter.)

The railguns that Broadsides can be equipped with... are those heavy weapons? If so, can Broadsides WITHOUT the Advanced Stabilization System be given these railguns? And if they DO get the ASS, can they then move and fire Heavy Weapons while counting as stationary?

Tangent wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:XV-88's (Broadsides) are not Relentless, and never were, despite being able to fire Rapid Fire weapons as though stationary. The only way to fire a heavy weapon with them is to get the Advanced Stabilization System. (Which I dont think I can abbreviate under the tyranny of the profanity filter.)

The railguns that Broadsides can be equipped with... are those heavy weapons? If so, can Broadsides WITHOUT the Advanced Stabilization System be given these railguns? And if they DO get the ASS, can they then move and fire Heavy Weapons while counting as stationary?

Yes
Yes
Yes, however they are S&P that turn and cannot make the jump pack assault move.

Specific overrides general.

General rule, relentless: may move and fire heavy weapons as if stationary.

Specific Rule Broadsides and Crisis per Codex Tau empire: the user must remain stationary to fire them(them referring to heavy weapons).

For Crisis suits it does not matter that they are jet-pack infantry; their specific rules state that they cannot move and fire heavy weapons(without an advanced stabilization system).

For Broadsides, they have no general rules(relentless) at all that would allow them to move-and-fire heavies; they may only do so via A.S.S..

Happyjew: Broadsides cannot make the jump pack assault move ever(because they are not Jump infantry of any sort).

Didn't even look at that, just looked at Adv. Stb. Sys. rules.

which actually are pertinent because Crisis and stealth suits can have the A.S.S..


Funny note: Stealth suits do not have any specific rules on weapon firing and are Jetpack infantry. The Team leader can move-and-fire his markerlight without any issues as he is fully relentless.

Kilkrazy wrote:In my view, 5th edition rules overrule 4th edition rules.

The 5th edition gives the relentless rule to jetpack jump infantry. Tau battle suits are the only units of that type in the game. It's difficult to argue that they should not have that rule.

I don't know how many people play it one way or the other. It might be interesting to have a poll.

This is my take on it as well.

Also, drones accompanying a squad of crisis are jetpack jump infantry, so their markerlights are good to go.


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Kommissar Kel wrote:Specific overrides general.

General rule, relentless: may move and fire heavy weapons as if stationary.

Specific Rule Broadsides and Crisis per Codex Tau empire: the user must remain stationary to fire them(them referring to heavy weapons).

For Crisis suits it does not matter that they are jet-pack infantry; their specific rules state that they cannot move and fire heavy weapons(without an advanced stabilization system).

For Broadsides, they have no general rules(relentless) at all that would allow them to move-and-fire heavies; they may only do so via A.S.S..

Happyjew: Broadsides cannot make the jump pack assault move ever(because they are not Jump infantry of any sort).

If this were true, then the A.S.S. would do literally nothing as the "specific" rule overrides it. Remember that the A.S.S. does actually grant relentless, which is overridden by your own argument.

The part of that rule you are referring to is effectively reminder text.

Well, the A.S.S is valid on Broadsides because thats the only way they can move and fire.

And while you CAN take the A.S.S on XV-8s and Stealth suits there is never a reason to because XV-8s don't have heavy weapons and Stealth suits have relentless already so the A.S.S would actually gimp them.

The A.S.S would have made sense in 4th as having a Jet Pack was specific to the Tau codex and wasn't a seperate unit type that had the Relentless special rule. It just gave them the 6" move in the assault phase and always being stationary for Rapid fire weapons.


If things seem wierd, check the edition it was made for.

There are other codices with some odd options, like the GK codex. The Brotherhood champion can take Digital Weapons(reroll 1 to hit roll), but his Anointed Blade already lets him reroll all of his to hit rolls. and 5th edition says you may never reroll a reroll.

But, because this codex was presumably written for 6th edition, we can assume that 6th edition will allow you to reroll a reroll(but maybe only once?)

Rented Tritium wrote:If this were true, then the A.S.S. would do literally nothing as the "specific" rule overrides it.

The A.S.S. rule 'is' the more specific rule.

Rented Tritium wrote:Remember that the A.S.S. does actually grant relentless

It lets you choose to use the Slow and Purposeful USR.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:If this were true, then the A.S.S. would do literally nothing as the "specific" rule overrides it.

The A.S.S. rule 'is' the more specific rule.

Rented Tritium wrote:Remember that the A.S.S. does actually grant relentless

It lets you choose to use the Slow and Purposeful USR.

And what does the slow and purposeful USR do? It grants relentless, which is apparently overridden by the suit language.

Which means that if we interpret the suit language as overriding relentless, then we must also assume that it overrides the A.S.S. (though you still have to make the movement rolls)

Is an "XV-88 Broadside" listed as an "XV-8 Crisis Suit"? That is the only way I could see you arguing to remove relentless from ASS Broadsides.

zeshin wrote:Is an "XV-88 Broadside" listed as an "XV-8 Crisis Suit"? That is the only way I could see you arguing to remove relentless from ASS Broadsides.

The ability that supposedly cancels relentless is worded identically on the two suits.

A broadsides with A.S.S. has relentless granted by the BRB because of slow and purposeful.

A crisis has relentless granted by the BRB because of unit type.

So both of them have relentless because of something written in the BRB.

Both of them also have the ability that modifies when rapid fire and heavy can be used. This means that for the purposes of both rapid fire and heavy, broadsides with A.S.S. and crisis are identical as written. Thus, if anyone wants to say that crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons after moving, they must logically admit that neither can an A.S.S. broadsides.

The 5th edition rulebook specifically grants Relentless to Jump (Jetpack) Infantry units.

Rented Tritium wrote:The ability that supposedly cancels relentless is worded identically on the two suits.

A broadsides with A.S.S. has relentless granted by the BRB because of slow and purposeful.

A crisis has relentless granted by the BRB because of unit type.

So both of them have relentless because of something written in the BRB.

Both of them also have the ability that modifies when rapid fire and heavy can be used. This means that for the purposes of both rapid fire and heavy, broadsides with A.S.S. and crisis are identical as written. Thus, if anyone wants to say that crisis suits cannot fire heavy weapons after moving, they must logically admit that neither can an A.S.S. broadsides.

The more specific rule is what is followed.

Are all Jump Infantry (jetpack) units XV8 Crisis battlesuits? No, but all XV8 Crisis battlesuits are Jump Infantry (jetpack). So, the XV8 Crisis battlesuit's rules are more specific.

Are all XV8 Crisis battlesuits equipped with an Advanced Stabilisation System? No. So, the XV8 Crisis battlesuit with an Advanced Stabilisation System is more specific.

According to your argument, as I understand it, a Necron C'tan Shard can not ignore the effects of difficult and dangerouse terrain because they are Monstrous Creatures, and Monstrous Creatures only have the USR Move Through Cover.

Now, with all that being said, this argument is irrelevant. XV8's cannot be equipped with Heavy Weapons, and XV88 Broadsides are not Jump Infantry (jetpack).


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Kilkrazy wrote:
The 5th edition rulebook specifically grants Relentless to Jump (Jetpack) Infantry units.

And? The Codex: Tau Empire, specifically says they are not. Well, as lest the XV8 are not, There are still others in the book that are.