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Brother Coa wrote:

Why is that matter? Even if Lion secretly loved Luther that doesn't mean that every Dark Angel was homosexual. And we can't even confirm that Lion was gay since he never acted like that, Luther was to him more like a brother then lover. Just because they are based on some homosexual poet and his song "Dark Angel" automatically means that they are gays? In a same manner Krieg is based upon WW1 Germany and that means that they will always lose because they lost the original war?

I think that Dark Angel secret about fallen brothers and hunt for them is cool. A fight for retribution and to restore honor is always interesting.

One does not exclude the others. Since its a reference made within a fictional enterprise, it can work on many different levels. Also "never acted like that"? what does that mean? Also note that the poem Dark Angel is still one about repressed passion and uneasy, unhealthy conformity to a societal status quo. It is filled with catholic guilt and imagery and the struggle for repentance through self-torment. The Poet Lionel Johnson lead a solitary, lonely lifestyle trying all his life to purge the "dark secret" within himself with alcohol, self-castigation and .. well .. poetry. It's not like it's "Howl" or other more explicitly carnal/bodily/outgoing homosexual poetry. So yes, I would say all Dark Angels very much do act like the poem Dark Angel implies, whatever the "secret" you atttribute to it (which can be either or all, depending on how you approach it).

I meant that Lion never tried to seduce Luther and had sex with him, at least I know from the fluff I read so far.

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that Lion never tried to seduce Luther and had sex with him, at least I know from the fluff I read so far.

Well, neither did Lionel Johnson likely have homosexual sex with anyone, most likely. As said, Lionel Johnson became a dedicated Catholic convert in his early 20s precisely because he was struggling with, at the time, forbidden lusts and passions. 1980s style gay-sex isn't all there is to homo-erotic attraction and brotherhood bonds, ya know; especially in military settings in ancient or medieval times.

Not only that, Zweischeid. As you put it on earlier posts, The Dark Angels are full of guilt and driven by the desire to purge themselves. They don't need to be banging each other to act as a bitter, repressed men in denial.

In the fictional universe of 40k, the homoerotic urges expressed in "The Dark Angel" are replaced by the lure of Chaos, but then it's never been stated that Chaos has anything to do with same-sex attraction.

The link between the Dark Angels and Johnson's poem manifests itself in the bitter, self-hating nature of the Angels. Their zealous hatred of Chaos and their Fallen brothers parallels the virulent homophobia often found in gay men in denial.

If this makes the Dark Angels noble saints or hypocrital sinners is mostly left for the player to figure out, as both themes are present in their fluff.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:Not only that, Zweischeid. As you put it on earlier posts, The Dark Angels are full of guilt and driven by the desire to purge themselves. They don't need to be banging each other to act as a bitter, repressed men in denial.

In the fictional universe of 40k, the homoerotic urges expressed in "The Dark Angel" are replaced by the lure of Chaos, but then it's never been stated that Chaos has anything to do with same-sex attraction.

The link between the Dark Angels and Johnson's poem manifests itself in the bitter, self-hating nature of the Angels. Their zealous hatred of Chaos and their Fallen brothers parallels the virulent homophobia often found in gay men in denial.

If this makes the Dark Angels noble saints or hypocrital sinners is mostly left for the player to figure out, as both themes are present in their fluff.

I know that. But in turn, the internal schism of Dark Angels between "sinners" and those who'd "purge their internal sin" as a dark secret can also be seen again as the internally conflicted nature of a repressed homosexual torn between "giving in" and "purging his dark secret". That is the entire point. If you "reduce" homosexual attraction and guilt to simply the sexual intercourse between men, you miss out 99% of what makes "homosexuality" (as well as, infact, wrongly include same-sex-intercourse that may not be related to homosexuality, as for example in prisons or some militaries where it is more about power and domination, rather than erotic attraction).

Again, I never said Dark Angels had literal sex orgies in the Rock. But as an allorgy or metapher or theme, it work's on many different levels. And they need not exclude each other. Indeed, the best quality of a good theme or allorgy is that it does, infact, work on many different levels and in many different senses.

What you're saying is that you're allowed to believe whatever you want since the link to the actual poet may or may not be taken literally, or even both, which I think is obvious.

To me, Agent_Tremolo hit the nail right on the head ; in comparison, the "literal" interpretation just seems irrelevant considering the setting.

*shrug*

the lion'el johnson/dark angel thing is hardly unique in 40k.

"Dorn" is gaelic for "fist".

"Sanguinius" - "sanguine" - blood.

"Leman Russ" the "Rus" was an old name for norse/vikings/russians.

"corax", i think is latin for "raven". then there is his last recorded phrase of "never more", bringing to mind edger allen Poe's famous poem.

Khan, and the White Scars. Do i really need to explain that one, regarding the mongol references?

Conrad Kurze, being almost like the badguy from Apocalypse, and being taken out by "m'shen". martine sheen anyone?

Sly Marbo, and Sylvester stallone/rambo.

O'shovah is a klingon word, i think. Or star wars.

seriously guys, 40k is nothing more than a whole collection of tongue in cheek, pop culture and literary references.

I would agree. It's very possible that the whole Lion-Luther business was intended as a literary reference to the poem and its author, but - at least until Jervis departs GW and is willing to give candid answers on the subject - we will never know.

While I don't particularly care and generally ignore the idea, it is about as annoying when people tell me my army is gay as it is when they tell me they're emo. I mean really? They're warrior monks who concern themselves solely with battle and devotion. They are neither emo nor are they likely to have a sexual orientation at all. *grumbles*

Zweischneid wrote:

I know that. But in turn, the internal schism of Dark Angels between "sinners" and those who'd "purge their internal sin" as a dark secret can also be seen again as the internally conflicted nature of a repressed homosexual torn between "giving in" and "purging his dark secret". That is the entire point. If you "reduce" homosexual attraction and guilt to simply the sexual intercourse between men, you miss out 99% of what makes "homosexuality" (as well as, infact, wrongly include same-sex-intercourse that may not be related to homosexuality, as for example in prisons or some militaries where it is more about power and domination, rather than erotic attraction).

Again, I never said Dark Angels had literal sex orgies in the Rock. But as an allorgy or metapher or theme, it work's on many different levels. And they need not exclude each other. Indeed, the best quality of a good theme or allorgy is that it does, infact, work on many different levels and in many different senses.

I never understood it that way but its an interesting take. Given the rebellion is lead by Luther I've always found it to be much more akin to the Protestant Reformation than much else. Interesting point though.