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add defensive firing rules =)

also have more then just 3 random missions.

DarkWind wrote:add defensive firing rules =)

also have more then just 3 random missions.

I think a good way to balance the reliance on CC, shooty armies (actually any army) should be able to do something like.......if being assaulted, the unit can take a Ld test with a negative modifier and if they pass, they can make a shooting attack against the assaulting unit or something. That sounds a little OP as it is, but with some balancing and playtesting it could become a useful and effecting way to counter a lack of CC prowess.

I'd add in Pinning and Defensive Fire rules, a la Flames of War. I'd also remove TLOS rules and probably take out the Gets Hot! rule, with a corresponding increase in points.

I'd work with the basis that Kill Team is more of the standard size game, with just a couple handfuls of models on each side. That is what combat should be in the future if we leave the armor out of it. Make any sort of vehicle only available at higher points games, with an emphasis on vehicles instead of infantry at higher points. And by higher I mean 1250+ points.

An immediate change to the current rules is makes Morale/Fall Back checks from SHOOTING with the same modifiers as CC. Frankly, it is more terrifying to see guys gunned down around you than have guys die around you in a melee. If there enough combatants in a melee, you might not have any idea you are getting half your squad killed. You WILL notice if they get shot down around you because your dumb ass isn't in cover.

Mattlov wrote:I'd work with the basis that Kill Team is more of the standard size game, with just a couple handfuls of models on each side. That is what combat should be in the future if we leave the armor out of it. Make any sort of vehicle only available at higher points games, with an emphasis on vehicles instead of infantry at higher points. And by higher I mean 1250+ points.

An immediate change to the current rules is makes Morale/Fall Back checks from SHOOTING with the same modifiers as CC. Frankly, it is more terrifying to see guys gunned down around you than have guys die around you in a melee. If there enough combatants in a melee, you might not have any idea you are getting half your squad killed. You WILL notice if they get shot down around you because your dumb ass isn't in cover.

The game needs to get off the close combat streak it is on.

ShatteredBlade wrote:
The game needs to get off the close combat streak it is on.

Or you could play Infinity.

infinite_array wrote:

ShatteredBlade wrote:
The game needs to get off the close combat streak it is on.

Or you could play Infinity.

*hides his Haqqislam Army* pfft, why would I dare play that?

Vaktathi wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
A couple things.

One, have you ever read Dune?

For a refresher:


By the way, Dune is one of the greatest sci-fi novels in history. In it, most individuals are equipped with personal force fields. These force fields react violently with the standard small arm, a lasgun, in such a way that it is considered virtually unusable. As a result, close combat...including knives, takes the stage as the premier combat weapon and mastery of it is the mark of the warrior. See Duncan Idaho.

One will notice that in Dune many military forces are highly restricted in what weapons/forces they can have, and was always more about politics and intrigue than about the warfare. If you look at the prequel books written by Herbert's son and Anderson, they are *way* more techie than the original books.

And close combat isn't always premier, it just happens to feature a lot.

If you actually read Dune, the description given is that lasgun fire, when it comes into contact with a personal force field, produces a catastrophic explosion, and military forces are actually restricted in what weapons they can use precisely for that reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_of_the_Dune_universe#Lasgun

This is actually Frank Herbert's canon explanation: "LASGUN: continuous-wave laser projector. Its use as a weapon is limited in a field-generator-shield culture because of the explosive pyrotechnics (technically, subatomic fusion) created when its beam intersects a shield."

Also, the most significant event in Dune, the climax of the book,

That, aside from the fact that in Star Wars canon, Jedi have been known to deflect blaster shots using their lightsabers....this is fundamental to Star Wars lore.

Yes, in limited numbers, when they can are aware/can sense they are being shot at. Most Star Wars weapons have relatively low rates of fire compared with modern and 40k weaponry. One also will notice that the Jedi used essentially more typically as commando's and not as line-troops engaging in open battle most of the time, and when they do engage in the latter, there's huge numbers of conventional troops.

One, have you ever read Dune?

For a refresher:

Ok lets go there.

One, have you ever read Dune?

***Yea probably before your mother was born. If you’ll recollect: Guy with a lasgun can vaporize everything like a nuke strike. They don’t use them only because they are terrified of them. Maula weaponry is extensively used.

That, aside from the fact that in Star Wars canon, Jedi have been known to deflect blaster shots using their lightsabers.

***And yet they exterminated pretty easily by storm troopers. Note, its not the light saber, its their use of the force, to see ahead in the future to know where those bolts are coming from. Joe six pack couldn’t do it. Side note, I find the Jedi insufferably boring at this point.

Most sci fi combat is not HTH. Only when the odds get ridiculous does that occur, or the hero is trying to sneak up and get a weapon. A few examples:
*War of the Worlds is all about the death rays and poison gas. Pointy sticks need not apply.
*Forbidden Planet. Death rays except for the creature from the id that required power to the X level to survive being disintegrated.
*Flash Gordon (ok good mix there)
*Starship Troopers. The STs never fought in HTH. Everything was with nukes and hand flamers and they would kill thousands without taking a casualty.
*Enders game – space love shooting style
*Battle LA. Dakka Dakka burning love.
*Independence Day. Pardon me while I blow up your city.
*The Day the Earth Stood Still. Gort wasn’t encased in acrylic because he was waving a sword about over his head.
*BSG. More Dakka Dakka, now with Chrome!
*Babylon Five. Very little HTH. Usually more Dakka and the occasional game of lets kill a planet.
*Star Trek. Usually only when boarding parties got into it and that’s Klingons and JemHadar.
*Mote in God’s eye. All weapons.
*FootFall (hard science version of alien attack on Earth) all weapons

Okay, that's a fair point and a pretty heavy list.

Even still, I would like to contest Star Trek if only because it is an excuse to post this:




YEAH. So there.

Anyway, if I could really lay out the case for why we have melee combat in sci-fi, who would do such a thing in a world of high velocity ballistics, well, A) we're doing so in a world with fictional materials so resistive that they are literally on par with tank armor and B) the illustrative "Power Weapon." Two things about those. One, a Power Fist has armor penetrative capabilities that a Lascannon would be envious of, two, Power Armour is capable of resisting all but the most outrageously powerful ballistic weapons in the 40k universe. If you will, it is a fictional world in which knights in shining armor have such extraordinary resistance to ballistic weapons that they are the functional equivalent of medieval knights against bows and arrows. Virtually no small arm in the game can consistently defeat Terminator armor, and even then you get an invulnerable save, which is supposed to represent a force field or something.

If that was the case, you could mount your trusty steed, in this case a Rhino or a Landraider if you are a Termie, delivering you quickly and safely through the fuselage of small arms fire where you can plant a Karate chopping Power Fist in the face of whatever Flak Armour wearing pedestrian had the audacity to fling some of his peashooter bolts at you while you strode in his direction.

This is keeping in mind the fact that the standard armament of a Space Marine is not a bullet but basically a grenade with a ballistic cap, and yet is still completely incapable of dinging power armor.

This is Medieval times in space. This is the beauty of science fiction. You could conceivably have a time in which personal armour advanced to the point where it again surpassed man-portable ballistic technology, as it did around the 14th or 15th century, and thus you would have close combat specialists capable of bashing your head in with a Power Weapon.

That said, I totally respect some people's inclination towards a "shootier" sci-fi experience to distinguish 40k from Fantasy.

I did always find it strange that tanks are basically made of glass in CC.
Leman Russ vs guardsmen with krak grenades...yeahhhhhh.

1. Rule of Paint: "Grey" unpainted models cost twice their regular cost stated in the Codex.

2. Rule of cinematic modelling: In each unit, one model without a helmet (e.g. Space Marines), a cool scar, or similar make-up ignores all armour-saves in shooting and close combat.

3. Rule of quick-and-dirty-play: If at least one player disagrees with an interpretation of a rule, roll a D6 immediately to decide the matter and move on.

I did always find it strange that tanks are basically made of glass in CC.
Leman Russ vs guardsmen with krak grenades...yeahhhhhh.

My grandfather used to tell stories about soldiers jumping tanks with "grenades" that were basically socks full of black powder in WW2, and actually seriously damaging them. Why would a dedicated anti-tank grenade not damage a tank in close combat? It's not like you use a krak grenade for anything else.

Jidmah wrote:My grandfather used to tell stories about soldiers jumping tanks with "grenades" that were basically socks full of black powder in WW2, and actually seriously damaging them. Why would a dedicated anti-tank grenade not damage a tank in close combat? It's not like you use a krak grenade for anything else.

It's not a "dedicated anti-tank grenade", that would be a melta bomb.
A blob of guardsmen can have 30-40-50 of these grenades. How many battles did your grandfather win when him and his mates simply ran around tanks slapping grenades on their hull?
Maybe krak grenades should just be rarer. Melta bombs definitely need to be upped to +10pts, 5 seems too cheap.

Joey wrote:
A blob of guardsmen can have 30-40-50 of these grenades. How many battles did your grandfather win when him and his mates simply ran around tanks slapping grenades on their hull?
Maybe krak grenades should just be rarer. Melta bombs definitely need to be upped to +10pts, 5 seems too cheap.

Probably less, because in 20th-century warfare, battle-tanks were viciously guarded against these sort of things by.. you guessed it.. infantry (or light APCs/Jeeps; later air-support if you're lucky). And you likely wouldn't even need a grenade against and "unprotected tank". Just hold the business end of an automatic weapon into an air-vent and let it rip. Ricocheting bullets in a confined metal box will take care of the rest rather quickly.

For a fighting force (Space Marines) that is supposed to be so rare in the galaxy that they're almost mythical, there are a lot of space marine armies on the table top. And I think that is the problem with the whole "40k not being sci-fi enough" issue. They are supposed to be the force that can handle anything both at range and in close combat, and with 5th edition's bias toward CC, and the abundance of Space Marine players, CC has become the mainstay even though the fluff and lore isn't so heavy on it. It's just too hard to equate the fluff with the gameplay in a d6 reliant game.

Why all the rage against CC ? I'd rather beat a Fire Warrior with a chunk of rock than sit around looking very menacing while he's taking pot shots at me with his superior ranged weapon. Makes sense.
If the argument is "it's sci-fi therefore sophisticated weaponry and shooting should be emphasized", heck, all the more so. I don't want to be on the receiving end of a railgun or of a Gauss cannon or of a Super Doomy Death Ray of Doom™, thank you very much ; if I have some fellow soldiers who're equipped to tie them up and prevent them from firing at will, not going to protest.

Nah, if I were to do something to improve shooting armies' lot, I'd get rid of that universal 4+ cover save. In game terms it looks much too generous.

Hyd wrote:Why all the rage against CC ? I'd rather beat a Fire Warrior with a chunk of rock than sit around looking very menacing while he's taking pot shots at me with his superior ranged weapon. Makes sense.
If the argument is "it's sci-fi therefore sophisticated weaponry and shooting should be emphasized", heck, all the more so. I don't want to be on the receiving end of a railgun or of a Gauss cannon or of a Super Doomy Death Ray of Doom™, thank you very much ; if I have some fellow soldiers who're equipped to tie them up and prevent them from firing at will, not going to protest.

Nah, if I were to do something to improve shooting armies' lot, I'd get rid of that universal 4+ cover save. In game terms it looks much too generous.

A 4+ cover save is pretty realistic, though, because realistically anyone involved in a firefight would be almost completely concealed to gunfire with the exception of their shoulders. Heads peeking over brick walls and outside windows would be a likely target in 40k.

TedNugent wrote:

Hyd wrote:Why all the rage against CC ? I'd rather beat a Fire Warrior with a chunk of rock than sit around looking very menacing while he's taking pot shots at me with his superior ranged weapon. Makes sense.
If the argument is "it's sci-fi therefore sophisticated weaponry and shooting should be emphasized", heck, all the more so. I don't want to be on the receiving end of a railgun or of a Gauss cannon or of a Super Doomy Death Ray of Doom™, thank you very much ; if I have some fellow soldiers who're equipped to tie them up and prevent them from firing at will, not going to protest.

Nah, if I were to do something to improve shooting armies' lot, I'd get rid of that universal 4+ cover save. In game terms it looks much too generous.

A 4+ cover save is pretty realistic, though, because realistically anyone involved in a firefight would be almost completely concealed to gunfire with the exception of their shoulders. Heads peeking over brick walls and outside windows would be a likely target in 40k.

But it's not just brick walls and such. It's shrubs, tin sheeting and a few branches that simply wont stop projectiles more menacing than paintballs, let alone Lascannons and Railguns, that are stopping half your shots.

If it were a 5+ for simply being behind something and a 4+ for being behind something SOLID, things would be much improved.

^The BrB has modifiers for cover saves in there somewhere, can't remember which page (don't have it on me), It's just no-one uses them for some reason. Everytime i bring it up to someone when they start to roll 4+ saves for being behind a barbed-wire fence, they just look at me and say "It's simpler this way." *Sigh* that entry is in there for a reason...

I would end the wound allocation shenanigans. It slows down the game so fricken much if the person that is using it is new to it or if you get an opponent that questions when you do it.

loota boy wrote:^The BrB has modifiers for cover saves in there somewhere, can't remember which page (don't have it on me), It's just no-one uses them for some reason. Everytime i bring it up to someone when they start to roll 4+ saves for being behind a barbed-wire fence, they just look at me and say "It's simpler this way." *Sigh* that entry is in there for a reason...

Not modifiers, no.
But it does have a list of the different types of cover.
Bushes and tall grass, IIRC, give 6+ cover.
Barbed wire gives 5+


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ivangterrace wrote:I would end the wound allocation shenanigans. It slows down the game so fricken much if the person that is using it is new to it or if you get an opponent that questions when you do it.

Yeah, I don't like it either. Too much busy work. I preferred it back in 4ed when it happened only if there are more wounds than models, not if there is more than 1 wound.

I'd like it if firing into close combat could be worked in somehow.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

loota boy wrote:^The BrB has modifiers for cover saves in there somewhere, can't remember which page (don't have it on me), It's just no-one uses them for some reason. Everytime i bring it up to someone when they start to roll 4+ saves for being behind a barbed-wire fence, they just look at me and say "It's simpler this way." *Sigh* that entry is in there for a reason...

Not modifiers, no.
But it does have a list of the different types of cover.
Bushes and tall grass, IIRC, give 6+ cover.
Barbed wire gives 5+

Yeah, my bad, modifiers aren't the right word. You know what i mean though.

If I was to make a major change, I'd would allow for more stratagetic options, like a less random outflank/deepstriking and allowing infantry to effect the game board.

@CC haters: Umad

People need tostop thinking that Sci-fi is just Modern With Shiny Gubbins. It's whatever the writer wants, and GW wanted a setting where shooting takes place with the whirl of melee. Now, your allowed to have your opinions. I want to plays Orks.

Edit: Month old topic...

loota boy wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

loota boy wrote:^The BrB has modifiers for cover saves in there somewhere, can't remember which page (don't have it on me), It's just no-one uses them for some reason. Everytime i bring it up to someone when they start to roll 4+ saves for being behind a barbed-wire fence, they just look at me and say "It's simpler this way." *Sigh* that entry is in there for a reason...

Not modifiers, no.
But it does have a list of the different types of cover.
Bushes and tall grass, IIRC, give 6+ cover.
Barbed wire gives 5+

Yeah, my bad, modifiers aren't the right word. You know what i mean though.

Actually it does for vehicles... It says that if you can't tell if a vehicle is 50% obscured or not, then it gets its save at -1 (so 5+ instead of 4+)

Give Sternguard a better BS than regular Space Marines

loota boy wrote:^The BrB has modifiers for cover saves in there somewhere, can't remember which page (don't have it on me), It's just no-one uses them for some reason. Everytime i bring it up to someone when they start to roll 4+ saves for being behind a barbed-wire fence, they just look at me and say "It's simpler this way." *Sigh* that entry is in there for a reason...

A simple fix I can think of is just seperating soft cover (5+, things that dont quite stop bullets) and hard cover (4+, things that can stop bullets).
being behind a few trees wouldn't be that great of cover, but better than being in the open. On the other hand, putting a cement wall in front of you is better still. This is certainly a simplification, but it at the very least is a better basis than "cover iz 4+! lolololol!"

TedNugent wrote:
If you actually read Dune, the description given is that lasgun fire, when it comes into contact with a personal force field, produces a catastrophic explosion, and military forces are actually restricted in what weapons they can use precisely for that reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_of_the_Dune_universe#Lasgun

This is actually Frank Herbert's canon explanation: "LASGUN: continuous-wave laser projector. Its use as a weapon is limited in a field-generator-shield culture because of the explosive pyrotechnics (technically, subatomic fusion) created when its beam intersects a shield."

Did I ever challenge any of that?

That said, Laser weapons were not the most ubiquitous weapons in use by Laansrad or Sardakar forces, they had them, but didn't deploy them with everyone or everything for that reason, solid projectile weapons still were more common and still highly effective as Shields were also not ubiquitous by any means.

Also, the most significant event in Dune, the climax of the book,

[spoiler] When Paul besieges the Imperial palace to stage a coup against Emperor Padishah, they do so by riding out of the desert on giant sand worms with Fremen, or desert nomads, and they immediately overwhelm their conventionally armed enemies, professional military forces and obviously the military's finest.....Sardaukars. Paul and his desert nomads then proceed to walk into the Emperor of the known universe's throneroom and force him to abdicate, using a combination of knives, sandworms, and psychic powers.

After breaching a mountain with a nuclear bomb, sporting ornithopter air support. It's been a while since I read the book, but IIRC the Fremen weren't devoid of ranged weapons either.

In Star Wars canon, Jedi are a dying breed. That doesn't stop them from continually changing the course of battle, and when they do engage in combat, they are typically destructive and unquestionably the best single troop on the battlefield.

Their abilities and contributions often however aren't simply because of Lightsabers, the movies showed them quite easily being killed by ranged weapons. When you can throw large objects at high speeds, reach into the mind of an enemy, manipulate objects at a distance, sense approaching or hidden enemy troops, communicate by touching minds, guide the trajectory of projectiles, see potential futures, etc. there is a huge value there that is far and beyond that provided by the simple melee weapon, a great analogy would be Farseers. They've got a fairly powerful melee weapon and a great ability to deflect damage (4+ invul save), nobody takes them because they can take on a dozen guardsmen and likely emerge victorious in close combat, they take them because they can enhance the rest of the army.