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After recently participating in Kid Kyoto’s hypothetical thread in the fluff forums (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/433636.page), I’ve been inspired to create my own variant thread specifically regarding the 40k rules.

Let’s say the 40k ruleset was to be rebooted/rewritten, with YOU being the primary person in change. You are allowed to re-write any aspect of the rules, codices, supplements or errata as you are the big kahuna in the hot seat.

What would you change?

(Note: this is supposed to be a casual thread with no right or wrong answer so remember Dakka rule 1 when posting)

This is what I would do:

1. Split competitive and narrative based gameplay into two distinct rulebooks. One designed for tournament gameplay in mind (with very tight, clearly defined rules for deployment/placing, wound allocation etc). The other rulebook would be similar to 2nd edition and be specifically designed for fluff/narrative based gameplay in mind (less balance but more flexibility and craziness). Codices would be compatible with both version of the rules (although supplements would only be compatible with the narrative ruleset)

2. Reduce the emphasis on APCs. Gameplay would be balanced around troops in mind and the physical amount of APCs a player can take in any list is capped.

3. Rework pt costing and rules mechanics to allow 40k to scale better at lower pts levels.

I especially agree with point 3. Some good skirmish rules with just a couple of models would be nice.

Generally I just want it to be less random. There are too many important results based on a single dice roll. Maybe it would help if it was wrapped in a fun narrative package.

The line of sight and cover save rules feels very strange. A true line of sight in a game where everything else is abstractly represented seems wrong.

4. Change the rules to sweeping advance. Its just silly now.
A single basic infantry model should not have the chance to kill an entire enemy squad by himself in 1 turn of CC

Put save modifiers back in.

Space Marines would cost twice as many points, but for that a basic marine would have a 2+/5++ save, 2 wounds and all the stats that are 4 now would be 5. Termies would be 2++.Bolters would be assault 3.

Ork boys would have a 5++ save and the old "Without number" rule would be brought back.No change in points cost. They would have counter attack in addition to furious charge, and THEY WOULD FETHING STACK!

Eldar would have BS 5 and the ability to disembark from a transport, shoot then re-embark in the assault phase. Slight points uptick.

Chaos Space Marines, Daemons and Mutants/Traitors would be in the same book. Daemon summoning would be like pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

15MM miniatures would be used, but the same movement distances, weapon ranges and blast template sizes would apply.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:4. Change the rules to sweeping advance. Its just silly now.
A single basic infantry model should not have the chance to kill an entire enemy squad by himself in 1 turn of CC

Agreed. Or 1 surviving tyrranid sweeping advancing 2 separate squads of boys...

In particular, No Retreat! wounds.

No Retreat! Should not cause automatic wounds. Such a thing doesn't even make sense. It should grant extra attacks equal to combat resolution instead of automatic wounds, such a thing is abusive towards high WS, high toughness, low armour save models and is only designed to abuse Ork players.

I also do not like the fact that you can assault immediately after Regrouping after a failed leadership test. When combined with ATSKNF and Combat Tactics this rule can be abused to allow any Marine Squad to turn around a failed combat. How? By running away? That's just ridiculous.

fire warrior costing 5 points extra but BS is 4 not 3
markerlight has the ability to negate line of sight in the form of you dont see rhino cause of smoke markerlight then lights it up you should be able to spot it through your scope and tau are rather weak so mora dakka so we dont get killed so easily cause we cant get them killed before they get in cc

candy.man wrote:2. Reduce the emphasis on APCs. Gameplay would be balanced around troops in mind and the physical amount of APCs a player can take in any list is capped.

Futuristic battles should not be fought man to man, rather Tank to tank.

Not sure where I have heard that before, but futuristic warriors would rarely be engaged in Hand to Hand combat.

Pssh what's with all these small scale changes? I'd do a total grounds up rule rewrite. No more of this 25 year old statline with WS, BS, etc. ported over from Warhammer. A sci-fi game shouldn't have half the stats be for melee. I'd like all the army lists to be in a single book with a "fluff" codex version available with tons of background and the like. I honestly don't know why GW can't release codexes at the same time (besides financial motivation). But yeah, grand sweeping changes would be my vote.

bosky wrote:Pssh what's with all these small scale changes? I'd do a total grounds up rule rewrite. No more of this 25 year old statline with WS, BS, etc. ported over from Warhammer. A sci-fi game shouldn't have half the stats be for melee. I'd like all the army lists to be in a single book with a "fluff" codex version available with tons of background and the like. I honestly don't know why GW can't release codexes at the same time (besides financial motivation). But yeah, grand sweeping changes would be my vote.

Notably, you don't go into the details on any of these changes. Such a rewrite would require a total overhaul of all of the codeces, the entire thinking and philosophy behind the book, and would require an inordinate amount of theorycrafting and playtesting. Not to mention, it's totally unnecessary. This is probably why you haven't gone into the details of this sweeping overhaul you've proposed. Are you even sure you'd be willing to go through the trouble even if given the opportunity?

I wouldn't change a whole lot really. I like the game but there are some big things that bug me. Feel No Pain shouldn't be so abundant. I'd make it a bit more scarce. Also, I'd make assaulting and melee combat much less important in the game. It's the future and everyone still fights like it's 1193. Kinda kills the sci-fi aspect somewhat. I wouldn't get rid of it, of course, but I'd try to put a bit more emphasis on shooting. 5th edition is all about melee.

Other than that, I'd get rid of ridiculously overpowered characters like Mephiston. No model on a small base should have Monstrous Creature stats. (I may have just opened a can of worms there). I don't enjoy fighting against one man squads that can smash through an entire army. Just not fun at all.

Lastly, I'd make tanks/vehicles cost more.

For a few quick fixes for the *core* rules?

First and foremost, get rid of KP's as a victory condition. Stupid victory mechanic, was never intended as a balance mechanic the way some make it out to be, and leads to super wonky game results.

Second, make defensive weapons S6 again.

Make vehicles hit on rear armor only after 1st round of combat, initial round hits normal facing (no, that ork screaming up on his warbike with a powerklaw probably isn't trying to attack through a vision slit, he's grabbing a chunk of whatever he narrowly avoids hitting and pulling)

Change no-retreat so that it only applies to how much each unit lost in combat, not how much all units lost by (e.g. if a carnifex and gaunts are in the same combat, carnifex kills 2 enemies and takes no wounds, but the gaunts lose 12 dudes, only the gaunts take the 12 no-retreat wounds). Also likely reducing No-Retreat wounds by the number you outnumber and opponent by to a minimum of 1 (e.g. orks lose 8 dudes, inflict 3, lose by 5 but still outnumber by 3, take 2 no-retreat wounds, not 5).

Give infantry the ability to interact with the board like they can in other wargames, such as Flames of War dig in mechanic (spend a turn not moving/shooting, make it so that enemies have to hit you with weapons powerful enough to blast through cover and have a harder time hitting you). E.g. spend a turn not doing anyting, enemies are at -1 to hit you and you get a 5+ cover save or +1 to whatever cover save you do have, if you go to ground in response to shooting becomes +2 to cover.

warpcrafter wrote:

Ork boys would have a 5++ save and the old "Without number" rule would be brought back.No change in points cost. They would have counter attack in addition to furious charge, and THEY WOULD FETHING STACK!

not sure if serious...

Vaktathi wrote:
First and foremost, get rid of KP's as a victory condition. Stupid victory mechanic, was never intended as a balance mechanic the way some make it out to be, and leads to super wonky game results.

Second, make defensive weapons S6 again.

Make vehicles hit on rear armor only after 1st round of combat, initial round hits normal facing (no, that ork screaming up on his warbike with a powerklaw probably isn't trying to attack through a vision slit, he's grabbing a chunk of whatever he narrowly avoids hitting and pulling)
.

I agree with the first completely.

I think defensive weapons need to be upped in strength, but may not all the way to 6.

I hate the new rules that you always strike rear armor when you assault, though the thing is that after the first assault, most units can maneuver around to the rear of the vehicle anyways.

bmoleski wrote:I wouldn't change a whole lot really. I like the game but there are some big things that bug me. Feel No Pain shouldn't be so abundant. I'd make it a bit more scarce. Also, I'd make assaulting and melee combat much less important in the game. It's the future and everyone still fights like it's 1193. Kinda kills the sci-fi aspect somewhat. I wouldn't get rid of it, of course, but I'd try to put a bit more emphasis on shooting. 5th edition is all about melee.

Other than that, I'd get rid of ridiculously overpowered characters like Mephiston. No model on a small base should have Monstrous Creature stats. (I may have just opened a can of worms there). I don't enjoy fighting against one man squads that can smash through an entire army. Just not fun at all.

Lastly, I'd make tanks/vehicles cost more.

Reduce melee? Have you ever watched a futuristic movie? Starwars, starship troopers,etc? They are melee based!!!! Light sabres battling talon weilding monsters!

Sorry but you areso wrong here. This game is sci fi no question about it

Vader could take on an army no problem. There are sci fi characters with amazing abilities so mephiston isnt all that out of character

warpcrafter wrote:Space Marines would cost twice as many points, but for that a basic marine would have a 2+/5++ save, 2 wounds and all the stats that are 4 now would be 5. Termies would be 2++.Bolters would be assault 3.

Ork boys would have a 5++ save and the old "Without number" rule would be brought back.No change in points cost. They would have counter attack in addition to furious charge, and THEY WOULD FETHING STACK!

Eldar would have BS 5 and the ability to disembark from a transport, shoot then re-embark in the assault phase. Slight points uptick.

Chaos Space Marines, Daemons and Mutants/Traitors would be in the same book. Daemon summoning would be like pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

15MM miniatures would be used, but the same movement distances, weapon ranges and blast template sizes would apply.

I don't agree with any of these changes.

Add a 7+ result to the vehicle damage table:
Vehicle Annihilated: As vehicle explodes result but models within 6" suffer a S4 hit, and if the vehicle was transporting anything the embarked unit is instantly destroyed.

Change the WS "to hit chart" to be more like the "to wound chart".
Maby not forcing units to hit on a +6 but atleast make it so a WS 7/8 or hit a WS 1-3 on a +2.

Maby giving MC a bonus for hitting infantry but in return also become easier to hit.
And maby also give diffrent weapons +/- on the WS chart.

skycapt44 wrote:
Reduce melee? Have you ever watched a futuristic movie? Starwars, starship troopers,etc? They are melee based!!!! Light sabres battling talon weilding monsters!

Sorry but you areso wrong here. This game is sci fi no question about it

Vader could take on an army no problem. There are sci fi characters with amazing abilities so mephiston isnt all that out of character

Of course once the storm troopers turned their weapons on the jedi it was instantly adios jedi.

Star ship troopers didn't have humans in HTH (either the movie or the book). They died in HTH. Same for aliens.

skycapt44 wrote:
Reduce melee? Have you ever watched a futuristic movie? Starwars, starship troopers,etc? They are melee based!!!! Light sabres battling talon weilding monsters!

If one remembers in Starship Troopers they killed ridiculous numbers of elephant sized killing machines with tac-nukes, airstrikes, and rifle fire.

When defending the outpost on P the bugs had to climb atop of mountain of dead against a relatively lightly equipped, lightly supplied, and unsupported infantry platoon to get at them, losing hundreds of truck sized bugs in the process and having to bring in gigantic bugs that burrowed underground to burn the defending infantry out along with lots of flyers and the like. So yeah, there was melee combat. The melee guys needed a ridiculous numerical and physical advantage and then also attacked from multiple vectors to overrun a relatively measly infantry platoon.

Likewise, in Star Wars, almost everything is shooting. The Jedi are very rare and one will notice it's dudes with guns that destroy them.

Vader could take on an army no problem.

Hrm, there's nothing to suggest that, he never really fought anyone outside of what amounted to duels in any of the movies (my knowledge of anything outside of that is limited however), and one will notice when the Republic turns on the Jedi, they get gunned down by stormtroopers who don't actually take all that many casualties for it. The Jedi may take on opponents at a numerical disadvantage, but they aren't that hard to swamp with a relatively small numbers advantage as shown in the movies, and die just fine to gunfire.

The WS chart needs to be redone for sure, you shouldn't have to have twice plus 1 to hit on fives, A space marine always hits on 4+ unless they are attacking an Avatar, This seems wrong to me. It would be nice to have units that are made for shooting be good at shooting. Scouts with sniper rifles being BS 3, is just plain stupid.

I would also like to see the rules for buildings gone a way with. If i am pushing the lines, the last thing i want to see is people running into a building and sitting there. Also the assault rules being changed would be nice,

Heavy weapons and fire and assault, you can double tap with rapid fire and assault, So it would be heavy can move and assault, or fire and assault. Rapid fire can move fire and assault. There isn't a point in being able to shoot more and not be able to assault, it doesn't make sense to me. I run up, unloading a clip into a squad, but i can't keep running in and hit you with the gun? but i can run up, shoot a pistol or a melta gun, and then hit you with it? doesn't make much sense. Maybe make it so if you rapid fire you can't claim the extra attack for 2 weapons.

And i would like to see some points changes, and a Wargear section. Having my Hq limited to only being able to take 4 things (chaos lord) is boring and makes people run the same damn thing. Also i want allies back. Chaos being able to take daemons, marines being able to take wolves.

And of course the base missions, Its either take objectives or Kill points. There isn't any thing else. Maybe something a little better, maybe like a king of the hill type mission. AND GET RID OF DAWN OF WAR, maybe if that is in all caps a GW test player will troll this web site and see that. Dawn of war is the dumbest thing ever.

skycapt44 wrote:

Reduce melee? Have you ever watched a futuristic movie? Starwars, starship troopers,etc? They are melee based!!!! Light sabres battling talon weilding monsters!

Sorry but you areso wrong here. This game is sci fi no question about it

I'm wrong because I have an opinion? The OP asked what we each individually would change, and I answered. How does that make me wrong?

When you make a statement that is wrong you are wrong. Opinions can be wrong.

For example, I think all money should be given to drug dealers to buy weapons. That is my opinion, but it's still wrong.

Frazzled wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:
Reduce melee? Have you ever watched a futuristic movie? Starwars, starship troopers,etc? They are melee based!!!! Light sabres battling talon weilding monsters!

Sorry but you areso wrong here. This game is sci fi no question about it

Vader could take on an army no problem. There are sci fi characters with amazing abilities so mephiston isnt all that out of character

Of course once the storm troopers turned their weapons on the jedi it was instantly adios jedi.

Star ship troopers didn't have humans in HTH (either the movie or the book). They died in HTH. Same for aliens.

A couple things.

One, have you ever read Dune?

For a refresher:




By the way, Dune is one of the greatest sci-fi novels in history. In it, most individuals are equipped with personal force fields. These force fields react violently with the standard small arm, a lasgun, in such a way that it is considered virtually unusable. As a result, close combat...including knives, takes the stage as the premier combat weapon and mastery of it is the mark of the warrior. See Duncan Idaho.

That, aside from the fact that in Star Wars canon, Jedi have been known to deflect blaster shots using their lightsabers....this is fundamental to Star Wars lore. The first introduction of Luke Skywalker to the force, in fact, is on the Millenium Falcon, where Obi Wan Kenobi demonstrates how to use the force to deflect blaster shots with a lightsaber. In fact, in the original trilogy most recently released, Jedi are shown deflecting a multitude of blaster shots, spinning and jumping acrobatically before severing scores of their opponents in close combat.

The fact of the matter is that science fiction affords writers an opportunity to change the rules of combat to suit a particular fantasy. In the case of Dune, it's though personal force fields. In the case of Star Wars, it's through the Force. In 40k, well, power weapons and power armor make small arms and armor obsolete, respectively. If a man was equipped with armor substantial enough to rival a tank, as is the case in 40k, it would be conceivable, however unlikely, that he would arrive at the front lines of his opponent with his lightning claws to carve them to pieces bit by bit.

Apart from that it is worthy of mention that Warhammer attracts aspects of fantasy to their fiction. It might be apt to describe 40k as "sci-fi fantasy." In fantasy, well, sometimes the rules of common sense don't always have to apply.

But that aside, if you rewrote the BRB you could write it however you want, with whatever rules that you want. You should take ownership of your new text. If you want more shooting, there could be more shooting.

Vaktathi wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:
Reduce melee? Have you ever watched a futuristic movie? Starwars, starship troopers,etc? They are melee based!!!! Light sabres battling talon weilding monsters!

If one remembers in Starship Troopers they killed ridiculous numbers of elephant sized killing machines with tac-nukes, airstrikes, and rifle fire.

When defending the outpost on P the bugs had to climb atop of mountain of dead against a relatively lightly equipped, lightly supplied, and unsupported infantry platoon to get at them, losing hundreds of truck sized bugs in the process and having to bring in gigantic bugs that burrowed underground to burn the defending infantry out along with lots of flyers and the like. So yeah, there was melee combat. The melee guys needed a ridiculous numerical and physical advantage and then also attacked from multiple vectors to overrun a relatively measly infantry platoon.

Likewise, in Star Wars, almost everything is shooting. The Jedi are very rare and one will notice it's dudes with guns that destroy them.

Vader could take on an army no problem.

Hrm, there's nothing to suggest that, he never really fought anyone outside of what amounted to duels in any of the movies (my knowledge of anything outside of that is limited however), and one will notice when the Republic turns on the Jedi, they get gunned down by stormtroopers who don't actually take all that many casualties for it. The Jedi may take on opponents at a numerical disadvantage, but they aren't that hard to swamp with a relatively small numbers advantage as shown in the movies, and die just fine to gunfire.

True Jedi die to gunfire...lots of it in fact. But who ends up winning the war...The guy with a sword made of light. Vader could choke out a trygon or simply grab a rock and crush it. Hell, Luke took out a damn Rancor in Melee. It is a key part of sci fi not to be lost. Where would be right now if ewoks fought with lasers? The is something epic about staring down your enemy up close and personal.

My point is Melee is a large part of science fiction and is evident in virtually every science fiction base. To drop it or make it less important does not make sense.

TedNugent wrote:
A couple things.

One, have you ever read Dune?

For a refresher:


By the way, Dune is one of the greatest sci-fi novels in history. In it, most individuals are equipped with personal force fields. These force fields react violently with the standard small arm, a lasgun, in such a way that it is considered virtually unusable. As a result, close combat...including knives, takes the stage as the premier combat weapon and mastery of it is the mark of the warrior. See Duncan Idaho.

One will notice that in Dune many military forces are highly restricted in what weapons/forces they can have, and was always more about politics and intrigue than about the warfare. If you look at the prequel books written by Herbert's son and Anderson, they are *way* more techie than the original books.

And close combat isn't always premier, it just happens to feature a lot.

That, aside from the fact that in Star Wars canon, Jedi have been known to deflect blaster shots using their lightsabers....this is fundamental to Star Wars lore.

Yes, in limited numbers, when they can are aware/can sense they are being shot at. Most Star Wars weapons have relatively low rates of fire compared with modern and 40k weaponry. One also will notice that the Jedi used essentially more typically as commando's and not as line-troops engaging in open battle most of the time, and when they do engage in the latter, there's huge numbers of conventional troops.

The first introduction of Luke Skywalker to the force, in fact, is on the Millenium Falcon, where Obi Wan Kenobi demonstrates how to use the force to deflect blaster shots with a lightsaber. In fact, in the original trilogy most recently released, Jedi are shown deflecting a multitude of blaster shots, spinning and jumping acrobatically before severing scores of their opponents in close combat.

The foes mocked in just about every medium for being unable to hit the broad side of a barn, their inability to hit is ridiculous the the point of being legendary.

Frazzled wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:
Reduce melee? Have you ever watched a futuristic movie? Starwars, starship troopers,etc? They are melee based!!!! Light sabres battling talon weilding monsters!

Sorry but you areso wrong here. This game is sci fi no question about it

Vader could take on an army no problem. There are sci fi characters with amazing abilities so mephiston isnt all that out of character

Of course once the storm troopers turned their weapons on the jedi it was instantly adios jedi.

Star ship troopers didn't have humans in HTH (either the movie or the book). They died in HTH. Same for aliens.

Actually, I think I recall in the book where the M.I were forced to engage the bugs in HtH due to the cramped conditions in their layer.
It didn't really go well; but it still existed, and they did receive training for HtH as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, there's nothing to suggest that, he never really fought anyone outside of what amounted to duels in any of the movies (my knowledge of anything outside of that is limited however), and one will notice when the Republic turns on the Jedi, they get gunned down by stormtroopers who don't actually take all that many casualties for it. The Jedi may take on opponents at a numerical disadvantage, but they aren't that hard to swamp with a relatively small numbers advantage as shown in the movies, and die just fine to gunfire.

You have to remember that the jedis were taken by suprise.
When Yoda engaged the clone troopers they were completely massacred.

There's also the battle on that desert planet in ep2 (I forgot the name...the one with bug people), where the jedi landed in force and they were really competent.

....Though on the other hand, they do have the force, which could be seen as a powerful ranged weapon.

I'd change a couple of rules as having helped run a 2nd ed game in my local store at the weekend I realised there are some rules I really missed:

1) Save modifiers - even if you're in power armour an autocannon and stub gun should have different chances of penetrating it.

2) When a vehicle explodes get rid of the stupid S4 AP- D6 hits to the squad. In 2nd ed when I vehicle exploded each model was taking D6 S10 hits with a -3 on the save. Much better considering if you've dealt enough damage to total a vehicle there is alsorts of crazy stuff e.g. reactor power cores that have just exploded in your face so it should probably exploded with more force than a bolt gun (in fact worse due to the AP -)

3) Modify the WS to hit table so that differences in WS make more of a difference (add in 2s and 6s to hit) then drop the sweeping advance rule.

Get rid of the wound allocation rules. I know that the special/sergeant always dying last wasn't great but it is better than the stupid stuff we get now, with pointlessly complicated units and more weapons = less casualties.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

You have to remember that the jedis were taken by suprise.

Yes, however also IIRC a fair number of jedi die in Ep2 in the arena thing and can't by any means block every shot.

When Yoda engaged the clone troopers they were completely massacred.

Yoda also was amongst the most powerful of his kind, he killed the only two who were around when they came for him and at basically arms reach and escaped with assistance from Wookies. When he fought them later, they for some reason decided running straight at him with guns at their hips and firing hap-hazardly or not firing at all was a great plan

There's also the battle on that desert planet in ep2 (I forgot the name...the one with bug people), where the jedi landed in force and they were really competent.

Notice they were surrounded and many died and required rescue from via an airborne assault by clone troopers to safely escape, otherwise facing imminent annihilation.

....Though on the other hand, they do have the force, which could be seen as a powerful ranged weapon.

It helps when you can throw large objects at high speed when your mind