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I have gotten into this debate withother clubs before. I have a Space Marine army, and I have 6 old rhinos, 4 Old Rhino Chasis Preds. i also have 20 old metal Termies. I also have no never Sorry but I am not about to run out and replace 80% of my models because GW decided a redesign was in order. I have used those models since 3rd ed. The only reason it is an issue in 5th is because of TLOS. In the other editions things had a Level rating, is a model could be as tall or small as it wanted. You used it's Level to determine if it had cover or provided cover.

jbunny wrote:I have gotten into this debate withother clubs before. I have a Space Marine army, and I have 6 old rhinos, 4 Old Rhino Chasis Preds. i also have 20 old metal Termies. I also have no never Sorry but I am not about to run out and replace 80% of my models because GW decided a redesign was in order. I have used those models since 3rd ed. The only reason it is an issue in 5th is because of TLOS. In the other editions things had a Level rating, is a model could be as tall or small as it wanted. You used it's Level to determine if it had cover or provided cover.

The difference between old rhino and new rhino is miniscule compared to old trukk and new trukk. When you can block LOS to your old rhino with space marines but can't even get a cover save to your rhino with your new rhino, then it might be the same.

I've played games with players using old Obliterators which are like, half the size of new ones and claiming more cover because of it. But, you know, you cannot expect palyers to go out and update entire armies just cause GW make a new model You cannot also punish a player for making a conversion cause GW took 2 years to releasing the fracking model. Its just a game, even at a tourny. If the player followed the TO rules then whatever size the conversion is should be irrelevent. The guy in the OP who claiming was bieng a Dbag cause he wanted to win at any cost. I've never given a player grief over that kind of stuff. I find that in most cases, if you are chill about cover saves, then your oppoent will too (even in tournys). This doesnt mean not disputing cover saves when you think you should be, it means be willing to roll a die on it.

If the TO didn't specify height, and someone has a conversion that raises some cover save issues, then just talk about it before game and either way be willing to roll of for it. Its honestly the only fair and civil way to hand dispute.

This raising another good point though. If you get ruled against in a TO, even if youre right, smile and accept the change. IF the TO said that the conversion was not legal for wahterver reason and you should use the store model to figure CS, then do it. I've had games where TO's actually made a call on a rule and were completely wrong abou it. I didn't complian, I said thanks and continued the game. Cause you don't wanna run out of people to play with cause your a jerk, this goes double if you're playing at a FLGS.

I was under the Impreesion that almost anything was good to go as long as you defined the rules it uses. Stating that a converted model follows the rules of what ever it may be.

Whatever happened to people basing judgments on issues like this on how much effort went into converting the model in the first place?

If someone obviously put hours and hours of work into carefully modeling and painting their stuff, I would be far less likely to kvetch about it at all, especially if the person was rather decent instead of being a total TFG about it.

I'd also rather just play, even if at a slight disadvantage, than spend most of the time alloted for my games arguing over random crap. If things become an issue, I'd rather just dice it off - high/low and evens/odds should be able to settle nearly every dispute at any table, without having to call a TO over.

Chesh wrote:Whatever happened to people basing judgments on issues like this on how much effort went into converting the model in the first place?

Since most people have posted that rule of cool prevails in this instance, I have no idea what you're arguing about.

The main issue is using something like the old Hive Tyrants or Carnifexes (that are about the same size as a current Tyranid Warrior) in a tournament. By the book, I'm perfectly allowed to - and tbh I still would if you let me It's pretty trivial to get cover saves with them.

Someone doing that would be more the TFG than someone who questioned it. It's a huge disadvantage for you to let me play those models.

Oh hey, there was a page 2 of the discussion that I totally missed.

I was going off the argument on page 1, sorry :s

Godeth wrote:I was under the Impreesion that almost anything was good to go as long as you defined the rules it uses. Stating that a converted model follows the rules of what ever it may be.

TLOS and drawing LOS down weapon barrels for vehicles screws around with that a bit. Because if the converted or "counts as" model isn't the same dimensions as the thing it is counting as, it will actually play differently.

In fact it can be the same size but still play differently. For example, some people create custom rifleman dreads with all the auto cannons mounted really high up. This lets them sit behind rhinos and get cover while not granting cover saves to their targets. Now if they've modeled it because they think it looks really cool that way, then they should have no problem having the model give/get cover like the forgeworld version.

I would let them play with their converted models with no problem, and I think it's rediculous to ask people to spend between $30-$200 to replace models in their army, repaint them, re-model them, and repaint them (God help you if GW just retired your paint color! [Emperor's Children]) every time a new model comes out. It IS, however, reasonable to ask them to rebase the model, as that takes fare less work, cost, and is directly related to the model's footprint for many game related issues. Any model's size can be adjusted by modelling. This is allowed within the rules. Modelling for advantage is not, and that is wholley subjective. Enjoy your opponant's modelling work and be glad it's actually painted.

I've recently got hold of some of the old Rogue Trader Ork Wartrakks.



I like the models, they're Old Skool and full of character. Game wise I've replaced the guns (swaped lascannons for twin rokkits).

Height-wise the gun is about the same as the current buggy, but they are a bit shorter and less wide. I was planning on sticking them on a buggy-sized base to help with any size issues as i'm trying to avoid any unfair advantage.

Noone at my gaming club minds me using them, but will happily take any advise on making them more 'tournament friendly'

I ran an old Space Marine Vindicator (the old rhino chassis) in a tourney and everyone loved seeing the old school version driving around the board. They didn't seem to care it it was smaller then the current model.

Both of those should be fine. In cases where the old model is just a little smaller than the new one, generally all you may want to do is let your opponent have the shot/deny you cover if LOS/cover is borderline.

In some sense this question can't be answered - it depends on the rules of the Tournament.

If the tournament says "official GW models only" then your old models are all valid no matter the size or how much the newer model differs. Your TO might have a list of exceptions. Who knows, as it depends on the TO.

In friendly games discuss it with your opponent before the game. I don't see how it matters that much as you're just playing to have a good time and use the models you like. If someone else has a problem, don't play them or work it out.

Model advantages always work both ways.

If the TO let the model hit the table and the opponent didn't have a problem before the game started, he had no reason to complain.

Emerett, that seems a bit "gotcha". A player may not see a problem with a nonstandard model until it starts being used and the advantage becomes apparent.

If the model is approved in advance by the TO, that's one thing. Fair game.

If the model is not specifically approved in advance, and mid-game it suddenly becomes apparent that it provides a real and tangible advantage over the standard one, then the opponent is within their rights to express concerns.