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Was at a tournament this last Sunday, and witnessed something pretty TFGish.

A Tyranid player was using Tervigons converted from Carnifex kits, the ones with the four large scything talons as legs (I'm sure you've seen them).
He was fielding them behind a wall of hive guard, and claiming a cover save against some longfangs.

His opponent brought the newly published tervigon model that was on display in the store over to the table and swapped it out for the other converted one.
His claim? Since the new tervigon was taller, the cover save was invalid because the Tyranid player needed to be using the published model 's height.
Further, that since the Tervigon now has an official GW model, that the coverted one (then a whole two days past release) was being used to model for advantage.

Is this something that is going to become common, do you think? IMO, since it has been almost two years since the new Tyranid codex, pretty much anything should fly as far as conversions go. Granted, tervigons that are using the 60mm MC bases should most likely receive the larger oval base. But the conversion being used was spilling over the oval base, its back two legs trailing off and touching the table even. Granted, it WAS about 3/4" shorter than the new published one, and the rulebook DOES state that you have to use the GW model when available, but come on.

Thankfully the TO either saw reason himself or caved to the people booing the guy emphatically pointing at the rulebook, but do you think this will be an issue at the larger tournaments like Adepticon?

As usual the TO has the final say on all aspects of custom models.

Best to clarify with the TO before the event starts if the models will be usable as is.

Most tournaments have some sort of rules governing custom models, usually the majority of the model needs to be GW bits, but YMMV

As a TO I would simply have said to use the new Tervigon for all LOS issues, but would have done this BEFORE the games began - otherwise the players tactics would have been different.

It isnt modelling for advantage, however in future i would hope that payers with converted tervigons moved to reconcile the height difference - easily done through basing, most likely.

Ork players got hit with this pretty hard with the new trukks and BWs.

I have had to retire some models not because of gamer laws, but I can totally see other people's POV as it does impact gameplay significantly in many situations, Especially scratchbuilds which are not anywhere close to the official model.

Oversized BWs cause issues and many times I have seen them either be asked to be removed or treated as the GW stock BW for gameplay as 3rd edition conversions are simply too big.

If you had a converted Tervigon which is now too small, if you are attempting to gain cover, you should treat LOS as if it was the correct sized model. If you can't be liberally reasonable with pretending the correct size for LOS, then don't use the model. As long as you are fair about judgment and realize your scratchbuilt is the wrong size, then most opponents will be fine with it.

Whatever hits the table is what you play by, "pretending" its the right size will eventually be wrong. If its a conversion made properly, ie GW parts, its legal. If its a GW model, its legal.

make sure with the other player that he allows it...

i usually proxy my sluggas for shootas, but I ask b4 hand to make sure the player allows it (i use gorka morka and 2nd ed orks, sot hey only have choppas and sluggas, but they look cool)

Customs models are like cover, it must be determined b4 the game starts to prevent arguments

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Whatever hits the table is what you play by, "pretending" its the right size will eventually be wrong. If its a conversion made properly, ie GW parts, its legal. If its a GW model, its legal.

Well prepare to have your model removed from play. It does happen. Not all conversions are allowed in tourney play simply because it has GW parts.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Whatever hits the table is what you play by, "pretending" its the right size will eventually be wrong. If its a conversion made properly, ie GW parts, its legal. If its a GW model, its legal.

But if you are gaining a benefit (e.g. cover save) you are modeling for advantage, thus not legal, not that I would play it that way but I certainly wouldn't boo someone that claims you don't get a cover save.

jgehunter wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Whatever hits the table is what you play by, "pretending" its the right size will eventually be wrong. If its a conversion made properly, ie GW parts, its legal. If its a GW model, its legal.

But if you are gaining a benefit (e.g. cover save) you are modeling for advantage, thus not legal, not that I would play it that way but I certainly wouldn't boo someone that claims you don't get a cover save.

true, but I think this is a kinda unique situation. GW didnt have any models for the tervigons until recently...

And not everyone has the money to buy 2-3 new gw tervigons to replace their old converted ones...

A way to fix this easily since the new tervigon justseems to be bigger would be to put something under the abse to make the converted tervigon higher thus prevented the unallowed cover saves.

jgehunter wrote:But if you are gaining a benefit (e.g. cover save) you are modeling for advantage, thus not legal, not that I would play it that way but I certainly wouldn't boo someone that claims you don't get a cover save.

If the model was created to abuse an idea, you would be correct. If a model was created without that intent, you are wrong.
Modeling for advantage means you modeled to take advantage.
Not that your model can take advantage.
Every model can take advantage of some rule.

As Kir said, "Modeling for advantage means you modeled to take advantage."

scratch building a model out of other GW models, when there is not a current model is not modeling for advantage, it is just modeling.

I did this with a Stormraven before the Stormraven kit was out.

It cam out fairly close to the dimensions of the SR, but it is not exact.

I have used my scratch build in tournaments before, without any issues.

DeathReaper wrote:
It cam out fairly close to the dimensions of the SR, but it is not exact.

I have used my scratch build in tournaments before, without any issues.

Because it is close. If your scratch SR was super small or super big, then people would complain. When it is approximate, then you are ok.

People will begin expecting tervagons to have a higher profile and a larger base. And this is an easy fix by putting the model on a larger higher base which simulates the larger size and base of the official model.

"GW didn't have a model" doesn't allow people to show up with 25mm based tervagons which gain cover from gaunts simply because they converted it before the model was released, the same way 12" x18" ork scratch BWs are not legal anymore because they are grossly oversized and no one wants to play against them considering the current model is 3"x7".

kirsanth wrote:

jgehunter wrote:But if you are gaining a benefit (e.g. cover save) you are modeling for advantage, thus not legal, not that I would play it that way but I certainly wouldn't boo someone that claims you don't get a cover save.

If the model was created to abuse an idea, you would be correct. If a model was created without that intent, you are wrong.
Modeling for advantage means you modeled to take advantage.
Not that your model can take advantage.
Every model can take advantage of some rule.

Ok, My bad, but I indeed think that if the current model doesn't allow you to take cover saves it is probably not only for the looks, Well It could be, who knows, anyway If it was my model I would still use it but wouldn't claim saves for it

The wings are about 2 inches shorter than the current version.

Plus the fact that the new Tyranid model was released only 3 days before this tournament, and was only 3/4ths of an inch shorter than the one GW released, that should be a clue that the model was not "Modeling for Advantage" as there was no proper model to base it off of when the model was made.

If my Stormraven had turned out undersized in all dimensions by about an inch, I still can not see many people complaining, since there was not official model when the scratch build was made.

DeathReaper wrote:The wings are about 2 inches shorter than the current version.

Plus the fact that the new Tyranid model was released only 3 days before this tournament, and was only 3/4ths of an inch shorter than the one GW released, that should be a clue that the model was not "Modeling for Advantage" as there was no proper model to base it off of when the model was made.

If my Stormraven had turned out undersized in all dimensions by about an inch, I still can not see many people complaining, since there was not official model when the scratch build was made.

But yet, they will, and your model will be disqualified from some events. I have seen oversized battlewagons removed from the past two 'ard boyz tourneys. No official model doesn't give people authorization to model things any size they wish and then gain advantage from them. Ork players have had BWs either 'play as if the size of the stock BW' or asked to be removed for years now.

nkelsch wrote: No official model doesn't give people authorization to model things any size they wish and then gain advantage from them.

I never said it did, but If there is no official model when its built, and an official model comes out 3 days before an event, and the scratch built was allowed by the TO (And only 3/4ths of an inch shorter), there is no room for the OP's opponent to complain.

So how does that apply to something like the old rhino vs the new rhino? I have three old rhinos which are considerably smaller than my new ones.

AFAIC, as long as you are not trying things like placing a unit of Nobz in an old Trukk and hiding it behind a new Trukk with Boyz (or a similar tactic) I could care less if you mix old models with new.

So your saying when I go to Are Boys with my old tyranid hive tyrant and carnifexes that I will be disqualified?

You might be. The old Tyrant is barely bigger than a modern warrior. Ditto for te Fexes.

At best you should use the modern sizes for LoS and cover saves.

For tournament play, I don't think it's unreasonable to use the dimensions of the official model for LOS purposes (although bringing it up at the last second is a bit dickish). That being said, I've never seen anyone disqualified for having converted or old models. As long as there is some way to measure it as the 'official model' there shouldn't be a problem.

In practice most players are fine with old or converted models, enjoying the variation.

In practice that enjoyment often is reduced or removed the moment they see a difference in size result in a tangible game advantage for the owning player.

In large events, it is becoming common to see a ruling that nonstandard models will be treated as if they were the size & shape of the standard model on request of the owner's opponent. Battlewagons have been the most common model to be affected over the last few years, as many scratchbuilds have wider fronts and thus it's harder to get shots on their weaker side armor. Tervigons are likely to be treated the same way.

Happyjew wrote:AFAIC, as long as you are not trying things like placing a unit of Nobz in an old Trukk and hiding it behind a new Trukk with Boyz (or a similar tactic) I could care less if you mix old models with new.

Well sir you and I would have a disagreement then. I do not own any new Trukks but I do own 5 of the old ones. It's 100% unmodified GW model that can hide behind new Bikes, Kanz, and BW's with ease.

I also have 2 original Drednaughts which are smaller than the new plastic Kanz. Still 100% GW models. 3 of my 4 BW's are a matched set of looted Leman Russes, Bought well before any GW BW. The fluff for BW's state that they commonly start as looted wagons and are upgraded to BW's. I'm ready for a civilized discussion with any opponent before or during a game.

PipeAlley wrote:

Happyjew wrote:AFAIC, as long as you are not trying things like placing a unit of Nobz in an old Trukk and hiding it behind a new Trukk with Boyz (or a similar tactic) I could care less if you mix old models with new.

Well sir you and I would have a disagreement then. I do not own any new Trukks but I do own 5 of the old ones. It's 100% unmodified GW model that can hide behind new Bikes, Kanz, and BW's with ease.

I also have 2 original Drednaughts which are smaller than the new plastic Kanz. Still 100% GW models. 3 of my 4 BW's are a matched set of looted Leman Russes, Bought well before any GW BW. The fluff for BW's state that they commonly start as looted wagons and are upgraded to BW's. I'm ready for a civilized discussion with any opponent before or during a game.

I know of multiple events you would not be welcome at. Youa re not ready for a civilized discussion, just an entitled bullying of your POV on opponents.

There is no rule that says all legacy models are 100% legal. TOs and event organizers may implement any restrictions they feel is fair and maintains the integrity of the event. if the old model interferes with the integrity, they can and will remove it. Many opponents will simply not play you as well.

Your trukks can be buggies, your Lemun Russes can be lootwagons, your carnifexes can be tyrant guard, your Hive tyrants can become warriors... those old models can fit the current rules as a more appropriate model in the current codex then it is fine. Abusing LOS and being snippy about gamers rights and GW legal models won't change minds.

Yeah... Pipealley, I too doubt the civility there.
You clearly see the capability for abuse, since you say it can hide behind a buggy.
If you're bringing your models with intent to misuse them like that, intent on arguing legality of that..

Civil?

Edit: I agree with the folks saying to use the current model when available.
But if it's not available, or you've got something very similar... I guess it falls to TOs

The guy has a good excuse for using the old conversions - the model hasn't been out for that long. He got used to playing a certain way based on the assumed size of the Tervigon.

If there's no new model around to compare, sure he has a reason to complain at an arbitrary judgement. However seeing how big the official model is, and still arguing? Poor sportsmanship on his part.

Then again this should have been discussed before the match. Its not fair for his opponent so suddenly object to the size when he has already positioned his troops and is well into the game. He might have not put them there and would have hid them behind some larger cover had this been discussed.

I would say, use the larger model to LOS if he's allowed to reposition his troops for the past turns. There's really no happy solution for either player.

Archim3des wrote:Yeah... Pipealley, I too doubt the civility there.
You clearly see the capability for abuse, since you say it can hide behind a buggy.
If you're bringing your models with intent to misuse them like that, intent on arguing legality of that..

Civil?

Edit: I agree with the folks saying to use the current model when available.
But if it's not available, or you've got something very similar... I guess it falls to TOs

Why would you doubt my civility?

I'd happily use the new models if GW had a trade-in policy. I havent used a single Trukk in over 3 years, so no cause for alarm.

Still confused by by your responses, in what way have I demonstrated any disrespect to any player or statement of others?

By that logic, I'm going to use my 4th edition Tyranid codex, because GW doesnt have a trade in policy on books, either.
Not MY fault I can't afford a new one! Still a perfectly good GW codex!

Enjoy your healthy serving of bugzilla, sir! Invulnerable saves and Eternal Warrior for all!

I can see you're obviously playing devils advocate here, possibly trying to goad a harsher response. But the fact of the matter is you specified that you knew about the possible abuse of the system, planned to abuse it, told us the models you would use to abuse it, and then stand there shocked when people suggest "Hey, I think you might be trying to abuse it." That's the breach in civility. That you're deliberately trying to cause a headache. (allegedly, I might be reading that wrong, but doubt that I am.)

Pretty moot point though, since any TO worth anything isn't going to be bedazzled by a feigned shock of confusion about why you can't abuse LOS. My stance is that if its within half an inch, two days after the new release, its silly to argue over it.

The solution for the person in my original post could be to model bipedal hive guard, increasing their height by an inch, but that's taking it too far as well.

As someone who runs two Tervifexes, one converted to be taller, one which lies on it's belly, I would totally advocate using the current model's sizing for measuring LOS. In Tournaments, it would be a must.

It's just too easy to have people abusing it and getting hurt feelings otherwise. Model size is an issue that affects various rules, and as such, it should be taken into account.

Archim3des wrote:By that logic, I'm going to use my 4th edition Tyranid codex, because GW doesnt have a trade in policy on books, either.
Not MY fault I can't afford a new one! Still a perfectly good GW codex!

Enjoy your healthy serving of bugzilla, sir! Invulnerable saves and Eternal Warrior for all!

I can see you're obviously playing devils advocate here, possibly trying to goad a harsher response. But the fact of the matter is you specified that you knew about the possible abuse of the system, planned to abuse it, told us the models you would use to abuse it, and then stand there shocked when people suggest "Hey, I think you might be trying to abuse it." That's the breach in civility. That you're deliberately trying to cause a headache. (allegedly, I might be reading that wrong, but doubt that I am.)

Pretty moot point though, since any TO worth anything isn't going to be bedazzled by a feigned shock of confusion about why you can't abuse LOS. My stance is that if its within half an inch, two days after the new release, its silly to argue over it.

The solution for the person in my original post could be to model bipedal hive guard, increasing their height by an inch, but that's taking it too far as well.

If by playing devil's advocate means having a slightly different viewpoint than yours, call me Old Scratch. I simply disagree that using GW models is abuse. I did remodel my first scratch built BW after the the kit came out but never used it again anyways.

That's not really the point though now. I'm not trying to give anyone a headache, merely state my opinion. Is that not what a discussion board is about? We disagree. If anyone here has a right to feel they've been mistreated, I would believe it to be me. I'll stop posting on this topic and go out of my way to not post on any topic you have posted on.

You have won. Good day Sir.