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No Vassal account, and I still say that it's a bad idea and that the OP did not really read the link he provided.

Mech Warrior is a huge property, pretty much dwarfing all of GW's work. They've got that to work from--and a huge cushion in the form of Hasbro wanting it to succeed.

Well, there's no arguing that little tidbit.

Mechwarrior is indeed huge, even in spite of all it's wonky designed robots.

In GW's case though, I still point to the Bloodbowl videogame likely ( admittedly I cannot be sure ) being the factor behind enough consumer interest to spark a relaunch.

I think modernization will help the GW company, although many players will likely stay far far away.

chaos0xomega wrote:What is being proposed is the same game but with the tabletop and minis replaced by a computerized map. I agree with Currant, besides that, GW would lose a ton of money from model sales, think about it, GW is already alienating a lot of customers, if they could find a cheaper way to play they would take it. GW shouldn't offer its customers its own end on a silver platter by giving them that cheaper way to play...

I wholeheartedly disagree that GW would lose money over this. I, for one, would not give up collecting and painting miniatures, or going to game night or tournaments if a computerized version of 40k were realized. I would most likely play the computer game as well as collect and play the tabletop game. I'm sure many others would do the same. If anything, I think that a computer version of 40k would bring new blood into the shops and playing on tabletops. Part of the hobby is actually collecting the miniatures for many of us, and I can't say I'd be interested in playing 40k with paper chits, but it would be fun to be able to play some games at odd hours online, using an army that I might be considering collecting.

To the OP: look jpw successful Wizards of the Coast was with D&D online. Within 6 months, they had to offer ot for free because no one wanted to.pay for an experience they.can do a home for free.

Stop trying to.say that the.existence of the.hobby is what is killing it. Online options simply kill a hobby that is struggling tp compete, lest you want to pay $100+ to change your armies...

curran12 wrote:Ugh.

I'm not saying no, but HELL no.

There's a reason I play GW and other tabletop games, it is to GET AWAY from computers and screens, kthx.

I agree, to an extent. I love the table top, the painting, the social aspects, and so on, however they have games like DoW, DoWII, Space Marine, and so on so we can get our WH fix without playing an online version of the miniatures. An online version of the miniatures might pull in more customers, but I think it would do more harm than good in regards to decreases in sales of models.

Why pay $500 to make a new starter army when you can just pay a fee to play with 'any' army online.

Thunderfrog wrote:I can't believe the douchewadery of a lot of people posting here sometimes.

The OP had an idea and wanted to discuss it. Instead he gets his intelligence insulted, his common sense debased.. and.. oh wait.. it's the internet...people like ph34r exist out here, armed with numbers representing letters and intentional mispellings all rolled into one nice leet speak burrito.

I tend to agree with the OP. I don't see GW losing money by releasing a internet version of the game that adheres to the tabletop feel. Furthermore, I suspect a lot of the people in here crying doom and gloom on the subject probably have Vassal accounts.

Seriously, do you think that GW would be re-releasing Blood Bowl starters if they hadn't dropped two video-games introducing a new platform to the game? Bloodbowl PC brought me to a gamestore to find out about the miniatures game (after some google-fu.) THAT brought me to 40k and Fantasy, and that ended in the purchase of 4 complete armies.

I would still buy models, still paint them, still play them. The subscription revenue would help them out a lot IMO.

I like this post, and while i still think that the main rulesets only belong on tabletop, its quite obvious to me that there is a much larger possible market on the internet, and that it would be wise to get in on the act, although one could argue that with Bloodbowl, dawn of war and warhammer online, they have cashed in to some extent already.

candy.man wrote:
D&D 4E saw the release of some pretty cool software that allowed the game to be played online. Did it supersede model and mini sales? No as people still bought their bodyweight in D&D books and minis. Did games like DoW, Space Marine and Kill Team supersede 40k sales? No as people still buy their bodyweight in 40k stuff.

The D&D4e example is a bit poor. I'm not sure if the 'Virtual Game Table' has even made it out of beta yet, but it's a bit overdue. What they released was effectively a character builder and some tools to help GMs generate encounters and such along with access to a repository of content.

Not a bad idea... As has been said often, a lot of people would happily pay $5-$10 a month for similar tools for 40k: a good online army builder, access to good-quality downloads of White Dwarf archives, etc.

How 'political' is GW internally? I wonder if such an idea would be fought tooth and nail by the WD staff as they see it as a better option for gamers than paying for WD?

Orock wrote:http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/mechwarrior-tactics-is-free-to-play-turn-based-and-go-ahead-and-take-our-mo

When is GW going to catch up with the rest of the world and offer their games online. A paid monthly subscription say 10 dollars per month with access to all armies, regular updates and changes, and even tournaments with well transitioned versions of warhammer and 40k would make more for them than all the models they sell a year.

Would it draw away some of their model retail towards it, im sure it would. But it would bring in far more that would never spend a dime with GW otherwise. Putting aside that it might ruin tabletop, it dosent make sense from a buisness standpoint for GW not to do something similar, and they have proven time and again that the bottom line wins out over everything else.

I'd be interested to see where you did the math to advocate them releasing a subscription based online game that directly competes with their core competancy when the majority of subscription based games go either microtransaction free to play or out of business within their first year.

I really don't think this would make GW lose money. If they made some sort of online game that was as close as possible to actual 40k it would not kill table top gaming.

For example: I play 40k about once or twice a week. The rest of the week I work, play PC games, go to movies, watch TV, paint 40k minis, and other normal everyday stuff.

So the fact that PC games exist does not keep me from playing 40k right now. So why would I stop when a 40k PC game comes out? It would probably only replace Skyrim, WOW, Half Life, Dragon Age or whatever other new game that comes out. I would still go to the game store on Friday to play, and I would still spend some of my money on miniatures. It is an addiction.

To be honest, it wouldn't even replace them entirely. I would still play them and the 40k game in rotation - Monday through Thursday, 40k Friday, and either more gaming or whatever on the weekend.

This could be a huge revenue generator for them... if someone does decide to spend their $X amount of cash on a video game and then $X amount on miniatures then right now GW doesn't get that first $X amount. If they made a PC game then they would, and probably still get the other.

Or given their current prices they may not get any of it. Some people look at a Land Raider and think... why would I buy one part of a game for $60+ when I can get 12 games on Steam for the same amount? Seriously.. I just looked at my account the other day in Steam and realized I had about 10 games I forgot about buying... If you wait long enough for them, you can get almost anything for $10 or less around the holidays.

GW needs to realize their competition isn't just other miniature games. They sell a hobby. An expensive and time consuming hobby. That is extremely popular to some and not at all popular to others. There are people currently not giving GW any money that would start if they made a PC game like the table top version.

There are so many ways they could do this. It could be a pay to play game with a monthly fee like an MMO. A free to play with DLC/add on packs that people pay for. Or a combination of both.

You could even put codes in each box of miniatures that allows you to unlock a free DLC of equivalent in the PC game. Buy a tactical squad of marines? Get a code to unlock the same thing in the online game.

Have all of that, monthly fee, get codes in boxes, or earn points by playing the game in a manner slow enough to cause revenue through just playing it month after month and paying a fee.

The cost of doing this would of course be having to maintain servers, hire developers, ect..ect... There would definitely be cost getting started and maintaining it but their revenue would eventually surpass it.

Look at the costs they have now. Designing the miniatures, the mold, the materials to make it, the cost of packaging, shipping, store space, ect. ect.

Compare that to having a server that sends the files for a squad to someone. A source of income collected by automated online systems for the sale virtual stuff...

They are starting to realize it. They allowed their setting to be used in other games like Dawn of War. But the actual 40k game still doesn't really exist on PC. I believe that if they did it right the PC game would eventually pay for itself and increase revenue by so much it would mean more money for making the table top game better.

Thunderfrog wrote:I can't believe the douchewadery of a lot of people posting here sometimes.

The OP had an idea and wanted to discuss it. Instead he gets his intelligence insulted, his common sense debased.. and.. oh wait.. it's the internet...people like ph34r exist out here, armed with numbers representing letters and intentional mispellings all rolled into one nice leet speak burrito.

I tend to agree with the OP. I don't see GW losing money by releasing a internet version of the game that adheres to the tabletop feel. Furthermore, I suspect a lot of the people in here crying doom and gloom on the subject probably have Vassal accounts.

Seriously, do you think that GW would be re-releasing Blood Bowl starters if they hadn't dropped two video-games introducing a new platform to the game? Bloodbowl PC brought me to a gamestore to find out about the miniatures game (after some google-fu.) THAT brought me to 40k and Fantasy, and that ended in the purchase of 4 complete armies.

I would still buy models, still paint them, still play them. The subscription revenue would help them out a lot IMO.

But he didnt post an idea. He said Games workshop was stupid for not doing this already! the phrase

When is GW going to catch up with the rest of the world and offer their games online.

Implys this. Imho Games Workshop would simply crash and burn. What, drop the thousands of pounds theyve put into producing models and hiring staff, into a ten or so man team to make an online game? They would lose all of their money and go bankrupt very very quickly.

That and WoW would just Jump on it and eat it up just like it has done with almost every other MMO.

blood lance wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:I can't believe the douchewadery of a lot of people posting here sometimes.

The OP had an idea and wanted to discuss it. Instead he gets his intelligence insulted, his common sense debased.. and.. oh wait.. it's the internet...people like ph34r exist out here, armed with numbers representing letters and intentional mispellings all rolled into one nice leet speak burrito.

I tend to agree with the OP. I don't see GW losing money by releasing a internet version of the game that adheres to the tabletop feel. Furthermore, I suspect a lot of the people in here crying doom and gloom on the subject probably have Vassal accounts.

Seriously, do you think that GW would be re-releasing Blood Bowl starters if they hadn't dropped two video-games introducing a new platform to the game? Bloodbowl PC brought me to a gamestore to find out about the miniatures game (after some google-fu.) THAT brought me to 40k and Fantasy, and that ended in the purchase of 4 complete armies.

I would still buy models, still paint them, still play them. The subscription revenue would help them out a lot IMO.

But he didnt post an idea. He said Games workshop was stupid for not doing this already! the phrase

When is GW going to catch up with the rest of the world and offer their games online.

Implys this. Imho Games Workshop would simply crash and burn. What, drop the thousands of pounds theyve put into producing models and hiring staff, into a ten or so man team to make an online game? They would lose all of their money and go bankrupt very very quickly.

That and WoW would just Jump on it and eat it up just like it has done with almost every other MMO.

WOW would have nothing on an actual online 40k game. It would be apples to oranges.

Now Dark Millennium will have a hard time. It is just another single character online role playing game.

An actual 40k game would be strategy. An army builder game. I cannot think of anything close to it right now. The closest things are RTS games. They are just not the same.

Automating 40k online would be one of the best possible things they could do, IF they were at all interested in producing quality rules.

From a design perspective, making something work in a computer means that each step, each phase, each action, needs to be clearly defined, with no questions about what happens before what else or how two things interact. Assuming it was programmed correctly, it would be the ultimate rules-arbiter. But even more than that, it would force the rules design team to tackle those questions.

From a business standpoint, MTGO has been around for over a decade without killing M:TG's face-to-face hobby. Bloodbowl, the PC game, doesn't replace playing with other people (but gives me something to do on my laptop while on my daily commute).

The concepts for 40k aren't that hard, coding the rules up isn't nearly the task that coding the artwork would be. If you could leverage work that's already been done (maybe an interface that lets you use DOW(1) models for the visuals, I can't really see it taking a dedicated team more than a year.

I'v been waiting a long time for an online version. The very fact that Mechwarrior is now out this should push GW to do the same.

Creating 40k the video game would require a rules system that is much clearer and much better written than the current incarnation or what 6th edition will probably be. It just doesn't seem possible from a design perspective for this to be done simply. Not to mention I play 40k to get out of the house and be competitive, if I wanted to stay home and be competitive I would play Starcraft 2.

Tantulas wrote:I'v been waiting a long time for an online version. The very fact that Mechwarrior is now out this should push GW to do the same.

An on-line version exists: Vassal

vassal takes everything cool about 40K/ miniatures wargaming: cool models, 3d visuals, great paint & hobby work, hands on interaction, face to face social interaction, rolling dice, etc.

and replaces it with stale 2D min/maxing and netdecking on carbon copy tables.

It is wonky, slow, impersonal and for myself totally unappealing on so many levels.

No thanks to computer 40k, I like miniatures wargaming just fine the way it is...

There are only 2 ways that GW will ever get money from me

1. Paint
2. Computer/Video Games

i dont see anything inherently bad about putting 40k Tabletop into a Video Game. In fact itll probably the only way some people will get to experience 40k.

one thing that people have to realize is that video games and tabletop gaming will never replace one or the other nor will they take away from the other. They scratch different itches.

and being able to push a brand to two different markets is generally a good idea for a company.

CT GAMER wrote:

Tantulas wrote:I'v been waiting a long time for an online version. The very fact that Mechwarrior is now out this should push GW to do the same.

An on-line version exists: Vassal

vassal takes everything cool about 40K/ miniatures wargaming: cool models, 3d visuals, great paint & hobby work, hands on interaction, face to face social interaction, rolling dice, etc.

and replaces it with stale 2D min/maxing and netdecking on carbon copy tables.

It is wonky, slow, impersonal and for myself totally unappealing on so many levels.

No thanks to computer 40k, I like miniatures wargaming just fine the way it is...

So your reasons for objecting to a good, high budget, cleanly polished game on par with the current standard for PC games is because there is a crappy 2D version already out?

I don't think anyone who is arguing that GW should do this wants Vassal. They want something greater than that.

And again, this would not kill the table top version. The reasons you stated for why you like it would still be the same reasons that it lives on.

There are people who currently buy nothing from Games Workshop. They may not want to have to paint. They may not want to invest so much money into something they do only a couple times a week or month or whatever the local environment provides.

Those people would play 40k online though. Because they would not have to worry about not living in an area with a local gaming group. Or about having to play the same people over and over in an area with few players. They would also not have to worry about painting their miniatures because they can just select a paint scheme in the PC version. They may even pay for virtual box sets of minis if they were priced much lower than the actual thing. They may even eventually get sucked into playing the real game.

There are also people who do play the table top version now who would do both if a PC version came out. They would play the PC game on nights they normally stay home to do stuff. The would then still go out to play face to face with others. They would still buy miniatures and paint them because they enjoy that.

There are also those who would only play the table top game.

In one of those three cases they would get revenue they currently did not. In the second they would get increased revenue because the buyer replaced his other PC game purchases with 40k add on packs an still got miniatures to play with as he bragged about his online wins with his local group. In the third the revenue did not change at all.

ph34r wrote:Or read the newspaper?

People still do that? The only reason I buy the paper is for painting models.

jbunny wrote:

ph34r wrote:Or read the newspaper?

People still do that? The only reason I buy the paper is for painting models.

I find it ironic that ph34r even mentioned newspapers in a discussion about how going to an online version of 40k would ruin GW.

The printing companies may be suffering from the change from actual papers to online news websites, but the money news agencies get from having an online version of their newspaper is far more than what they got having only a physical medium.

Not that GW would make more money from advertising (they could with an online game, but it isn't likely) but anyone who thinks that in the end GW would lose money by going to a cheaper method of distribution that reaches more customers really doesn't have a grasp of reality.

There is a reason there are so few PC stores. It is not because people stopped buying them. It is because of newegg (and other online stores).

There is a reason so many newspapers are no longer printed. It is not because people stopped wanting the news. It is because of the internet.

Would the people who make the miniatures lose business to a PC 40k game? Not really. Keep in mind that people collect miniatures, not newspapers (well.. usually no one collects newspapers) so there will still be a demand for them.

Frothmog wrote:I find it ironic that ph34r even mentioned newspapers in a discussion about how going to an online version of 40k would ruin GW.

The goal was to point out that anyone who had read any sort of economics article would realize that GW making a functional online 40k would bankrupt them.

Really, if you think an online game would be able to make the same profit has their physical game, you have zero knowledge of the way things work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bakerofish wrote:There are only 2 ways that GW will ever get money from me

1. Paint

Wait, what? You refuse to buy GW models (if I am reading your post right) but you buy their paints? Which are pretty much universally accepted to be rip-offs compared to alternatives? (exception: foundation and washes)

@ph34r

Foundation, washes and Chaos Black

I dunno what it is about Chaos Black but it really is THE best black acrylic paint i've worked with

Bakerofish wrote:@ph34r

Foundation, washes and Chaos Black

I dunno what it is about Chaos Black but it really is THE best black acrylic paint i've worked with

Fair assessment. It makes me wonder if GW's new paints range will expand its advantages over other ranges.

Rayvon wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:I can't believe the douchewadery of a lot of people posting here sometimes.

The OP had an idea and wanted to discuss it. Instead he gets his intelligence insulted, his common sense debased.. and.. oh wait.. it's the internet...people like ph34r exist out here, armed with numbers representing letters and intentional mispellings all rolled into one nice leet speak burrito.

I tend to agree with the OP. I don't see GW losing money by releasing a internet version of the game that adheres to the tabletop feel. Furthermore, I suspect a lot of the people in here crying doom and gloom on the subject probably have Vassal accounts.

Seriously, do you think that GW would be re-releasing Blood Bowl starters if they hadn't dropped two video-games introducing a new platform to the game? Bloodbowl PC brought me to a gamestore to find out about the miniatures game (after some google-fu.) THAT brought me to 40k and Fantasy, and that ended in the purchase of 4 complete armies.

I would still buy models, still paint them, still play them. The subscription revenue would help them out a lot IMO.

I like this post, and while i still think that the main rulesets only belong on tabletop, its quite obvious to me that there is a much larger possible market on the internet, and that it would be wise to get in on the act, although one could argue that with Bloodbowl, dawn of war and warhammer online, they have cashed in to some extent already.

The main point of GW is to sell over priced mini's to male's aged 10-18. How will this help them by offering all the content online that you used to have to buy, paint and play?

Personally I would love to see a Epic version of this, that would be neat playing whole armies.

I love the tabletop game. I really do. But as I become older I find I have less time to enjoy my hobby, but more money. I will always play 40k, but I would also love another avenue of enjoyment on the 40k universe anyway i can get it. Look at all the internet MTG games. I'm pretty sure Wizards of the Coast isnt shutting down its physical ccg manufacture anytime soon :p

curran12 wrote:Ugh.

I'm not saying no, but HELL no.

There's a reason I play GW and other tabletop games, it is to GET AWAY from computers and screens, kthx.

I have to agree, though perhaps not in terms quite so strong. When Everquest came out, I remember a D&D group that broke up just so the same guys playing D&D face to face could go to their respective homes and play online with each other.

Computer games can be fun, but I like interacting with real people, and I'd like to think most gamers still do.

There's a reason I don't play Starcraft or similar online RTS games, and that's people who spend more time playing it than they do living away from the computer. Those people make the game boring and predictable. I also tend to stay away from online games in general, because it typically means having to deal with 12 year olds, or people who act like them.

At least if I'm in a store or something the owner generally kicks out anyone who acts like a fething doofus, including kids and adults alike who fall under the jerk or doofus categories. On the internet there's just a continual stream of them.

TheHarleqwin wrote:
At least if I'm in a store or something the owner generally kicks out anyone who acts like a fething doofus, including kids and adults alike who fall under the jerk or doofus categories. On the internet there's just a continual stream of them.

Thats a very good point, i would proabably play alot more online games if the communities were not full of turds declaring how skillfull they are, how much better than everyone else they are and constantly abusing anyone that does not live up the their ideals, not to mention the Numbers and symbols for letters people leet speaking the latest memes over and over.
I guess thats part and parcel of the anonymity of the internet eh, every idiot wants to be the daddy !!

Porting it straight to net I don't think I would be very interested in, even if I could customize it I think the loss in painting enjoyment and getting tips on painting and all that jazz would put me off a bit. I also doubt it would destroy the tabletop as, correct me if I'm wrong, GW is a miniature figure company first and foremost so I kinda doubt they would abandon that. Even if they did though its more money for Warmachine I suppose.

Having said that...I could see Fantasy being put into an updated version of the Total War engine and being pretty darn fun if not absolutely great. 40k... eh, I honestly wasn't impressed much with Dawn of War, just not to my liking for a rts, not to say I didn't enjoy the game at all just that it had very limited value to me. There was a game engine that I could like from it but I cannot remember the name of the game to save my life at the moment. That said, I would never touch the internet portion of it as the net tends towards competitiveness and I'm really not much of a competitor, at least if I get my rear handed to me on the tabletop I'm being social at the same time and in a more relaxed atmosphere with friends.

$.02

Wow, there's a lot of vassal haters here...



I would LOVE to have an online based game, when you can't drive, and gas is getting really expensive, the ability to game without needing to drive out would be a good convenience, not to mention I could care less about painting, modeling, or all that. I enjoy the game for its rules and its fluff! As it is, Vassal cannot do much of what I need, and would love to see it done properly in a 3D format.

To the OP: look jpw successful Wizards of the Coast was with D&D online. Within 6 months, they had to offer ot for free because no one wanted to.pay for an experience they.can do a home for free.

First off, that game wasn't even remotely similar to DnD on the tabletop, second, they made more money by going FTP, they just dropped the subscription model, and as a result are making 300% more than they did when they had a subscription based.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:First off, that game wasn't even remotely similar to DnD on the tabletop, second, they made more money by going FTP, they just dropped the subscription model, and as a result are making 300% more than they did when they had a subscription based.

Which sadly just goes to show how destitute their profits were under the subscription model. Going free-to-play is always motivated by money, the goal of going FTP is to find other more effective ways of getting money from people, not to just give up or throw in the towel.