Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well Stormravens can not scout.
But for a pitched battle, a Death Company Dread can get a 1st turn assault if it is embarked in a Stormraven, and the enemy unit is on the edge of the deployment zone.

For Dawn of War, a Blood Angels assault squad can get a 1st turn assault if it is embarked within a land raider. (And the enemy is positioned less than 18" from the front of his deployment zone.)

and for Spearhead a Blood Angels assault squad can get a 1st turn assault if it is embarked within a land raider, or Stormraven. (And the enemy is positioned to the side of his deployment zone.)

Scout bikers can get a 1st turn assault in pitched battle or spearhead, as they can scout move to just more than 12" away, move 11" in their movement phase, and then assault.

So 1st turn assaults are not unheard of.

Sligoth - and it did, because the "Scout move" portion of deployment counts as the previous turn - so if the vehicle did not move in the Scout move, it WAS stationary.

No houserule needed

Plus, 1st turn assaults are entirely normal, if youre not thinking. Just play wytches in raiders. Ravenwing bikers. Anything in a Stormraven / open topped vehicle in spearhead (min seperation is less than 18") or just beasts in spearhead. Infiltrating fleeting terminators, that managed to get out of line of sight.

People have this weird idea that first turn assaults somehow shouldnt be allowed, yet they are quite common!

Stormravens don't have Scout. I woudn't call first turn assualts common; they're mostly seen from units with Scout or armies with Shrike, of which you don't see a ton. They're also possible in Spearhead, yes, but won't normally happen unless someone deploys badly.

Any DE army with raiders / venoms and fleet wytches can reliably pull off first turn charges. Not as easily or as far as they used to with the right drugs roll, but the 12" + pivot + 2" disembark + 1 - 6 run + 6" assault gives them a fair reach.

How do you make a SR scout in a BA army?!

The vehicles are auto hit unless they preformed a pregame scout move.

DeathReaper wrote:The FaQ tells us that the scout move portion of the first turn acts as the previous turn as far as vehicle is concerned.

Either way, remaining stationary and not moving are synonymous. they mean the exact same thing.

They actually don't.

"Did you move last turn?" is not "Did you remain stationary last turn?" <-- in the first instance, you can claim "You did not have the opportunity to move, so you count as not having moved" but you can't answer the second question because you didn't have the ability to "remain stationary" even if you're ignoring that it implies actively forgoing the option to move, the game doesn't have the ability to recognize whether you "remained stationary" before the game itself existed and it's phrased in an affirmative manner.

And when did this turn into a Tactica thread about how to charge on turn 1? There was a decent discussion going on for awhile there.

During the Scout move phase, which is the previous turn as far as the FAQ is determined, did you remain stataionary? Yes, because you were not allowed to move.

Wait, how did your storm raven get a scout move?

Only thing I can think of is Grand Strategy.

Which doesnt work on non-walker vehicles.

Didn't know that, was going off a battle report on dakka.

biccat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

biccat wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Unless the vehicle used a Scout move......................

Scout moves aren't during a "previous turn", they take place before the game begins, outside of the turn sequence.

They would therefore be autohit.

BRB FAQ page 7 wrote:Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in
combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

Ah yes, well there you go.

I don't think I've ever seen this come up in a game, tbh.

This comes up in just about every game I play. Mainly because I like to turbo boost my def koptas in the scout phase to get the 3+ cover. The fun part is when you go first, so you turbo boost in the scout move, then if you go first, you move, shoot, and assault some tank. then when your opponent goes to shoot it, you tell him you still get your 3+ cover save Hilarity ensues

shock_at wrote:sorry if it wasnt clear, was directed at the arguements of Sliggoth that 1st turn vehicle assault requires a house rule due to RAW.

Stormraven deploy 12" from bottom edge, move flatout 24 during scout move, move 12" on turn 1, then disembark. thats more than 36" of movement, easy enough to get within assault distance for the infantry while the death company dread fleets (i've tried this and the dread cant disembark from the front due to all the infantry taking the front space so he has to disembark from the back)

One huge problem with that tactic. Do you wanna know. Well if you don't I will tell you anyway. the Stormraven doesn't have scout. Making a turn 2 assault impossible for the BA. Unless using Vanguard in a drop pod.

redkeyboard wrote:...the Stormraven doesn't have scout. Making a turn 2 assault impossible for the BA. Unless using Vanguard in a drop pod.

I presume you mean turn 1, and a turn 1 assault is not impossible for the BA. But it is really difficult to pull off.

You should also continue reading...

Page 63: "Note: When assessing how far a vehicle has moved only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position."

This indicates that there is a relationship between being stationary and not having moved. Or do you want to tell me that there is a distance of >0" between the original position and the current one? No, because the current position IS the original position. Therefore it hasnt moved and counts as stationary.

Hmm, can we read the scout rule as adding a scout movement phase/ turn to all units then? Or does the scout rule give only those units with scout a movement phase/ turn?

The faq says that a scout move counts as a previous turn, if a unit doesnt get a scout move then it isnt affected by this rule.




Sliggoth

Sportsmanship points to the OP for allowing a 4+ to hit. Not many players be so sporting

sirlynchmob wrote:
This comes up in just about every game I play. Mainly because I like to turbo boost my def koptas in the scout phase to get the 3+ cover. The fun part is when you go first, so you turbo boost in the scout move, then if you go first, you move, shoot, and assault some tank. then when your opponent goes to shoot it, you tell him you still get your 3+ cover save Hilarity ensues

I must be missing something here about the underlined part. If you moved 12" or less so that your kopta can shoot and assault on turn 1, then you didn't turbo boost on turn 1. So, you can't claim the cover save. Your turn 1 was the "previous turn" where the turboboost needs to have happened.

Doesn't matter. The Turbo-boost cover save comes into play on your opponents next Shooting phase. This means you can move up to 36" total (24" turbo-boost scout + 12" 1st turn move). Then on your opponents next shooting phase (aka 1st turn) you still get the cover save.

If you want your vehicles to have moved when they get assaulted, put them in reserve. If you want your vehicles on the battlefield sitting, waiting for the enemy on turn 1 they didn't move.

Its not like you don't have a choice. Anyone can put their vehicles in reserve to avoid this.

Couple of notes.

Space marince bike scouts have scout and can easily deliver a PF into a first turn assault to much of the table. Or a melta bomb if they hit something with heavy armor. (kind of fun even if the vehicle doesnt get popped, with proper placement of the sergeant the vehicle has to either waste its first turn move or give the sergenat another shot by tank shocking)



Not moving is NOT the same as remaining stationary.

Moving has some definite rules in 40k, we know how a unit moves. Being displaced is not movement, but does mean that a unit may have been moved...hence not remain stationary. An infantry unit can be tank shocked off of an objective. It hasnt moved according to 40k rules, but it hasnt remained stationary either. Other things can even cause vehicles to be displaced, such a mawloc or a BA dread. So the two terms do not have the same meaning in 40k.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Not moving is NOT the same as remaining stationary.

Moving has some definite rules in 40k, we know how a unit moves. Being displaced is not movement, but does mean that a unit may have been moved...hence not remain stationary. An infantry unit can be tank shocked off of an objective. It hasnt moved according to 40k rules, but it hasnt remained stationary either. Other things can even cause vehicles to be displaced, such a mawloc or a BA dread. So the two terms do not have the same meaning in 40k.

Sliggoth

As for the underlined it should say "It has not performed a Move according to 40k rules" the unit still moved, but it did not Move.

as far as vehicles are concerned not moving is the same as remaining stationary.

@Deathreaper Since this is a forum discussing 40k and its rules....one tends to think that the discussion does involve terms in 40k. Moving does have a quite specific meaing in 40k.

In 40k we know how a unit moves, and we know if a unit moves or not. In 40k terms at the very start of the game after deployment but before any scout moves we can safely say that all units have not moved in a previous movement phase. We cannot however say that all units have remained stationary in a previous movement phase. Yes, this is simply because there has not yet been a movement phase.

The two terms are not the same, "remaining stationary" has connotations that "not moving" doesn not have.

Remaining stationary in this case is something that has actually happened, while not moving covers events that not have happened.


And on these boards there has also been a distinction drawn between moving and being moved. Again, its another subtle distinction but we are discussing 40k and its rules here...not real life or the english language in general.


Units move according to a set of rules in 40k, but they also can BE moved by other effects in the game. This comes up in discussions on dangerous terrain etc at times.



Sliggoth

Did it remain stationary during the previous movement phase?

Did it Move during the previous movement phase?

Both of these answers have the same effect:

A: there was no previous movement phase so it could not have moved/must have remained stationary since you had no opportunity to Move the vehicle.

Or do we now have Schrödinger's tanks as well? You can't tell if they've moved until they get a turn...

Does not matter, as the Scout move portion of the first turn acts as the previous movement phase as far as the GW FaQ's are concerned.

rigeld2 wrote:Or do we now have Schrödinger's tanks as well? You can't tell if they've moved until they get a turn...

Great, now I have to add that to my sig as well. And yess I'm stealing it.

rigeld2 wrote:Or do we now have Schrödinger's tanks as well? You can't tell if they've moved until they get a turn...

<golf clap> Well played, sir, well played. </golf clap>

Except the faq only tells us that a unit that has a scout move gets to count that as its prvious movement phase. It doesnt give all units a movement phase, only the unit that has the scout move.

Its going to be quite common for one army to have unit(s) that have a scout move, so this will count as a prior movement phase for those units. Look at the faq, its quite clear that the scout move counts FOR THAT UNIT.

Even if we do draw it more inclusive, at most we will give a prior movement phase to THAT PLAYER.


This will still mean that the other side has not had a prior movement phase for any of his vehicles, so we still do not have an easy answer for what to roll to hit.



And @deathreaper lets just answer your two questions, but first we do have to word them correctly:


1) Did the vehicle remain stationary during the previous movement phase? No, it couldnt remain stationary because it didnt have a movement phase.

2) Did the vehicle not move during the previous movement phase? Yes, its couldnt move because its didnt have a movement phase so it did not move.



And thats the problem.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:And @deathreaper lets just answer your two questions, but first we do have to word them correctly:


1) Did the vehicle remain stationary during the previous movement phase? No, it couldnt remain stationary because it didnt have a movement phase.

2) Did the vehicle not move during the previous movement phase? Yes, its couldnt move because its didnt have a movement phase so it did not move.

#1 is not answered correctly.

It should say "It had to have remained stationary because there was no turn in which it could have moved."

Therefore they are auto hit.


Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in
combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes

When scout moves come about it counts as the preceding Movement phase. Simple enough.