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New to the game and was wondering if in the 1st round I assault his vehicles when he has had no turn yet do I get auto hits? This happened yesterday and I gave him the 4+ because I was trying to be nice...

Vehicles do not count has having "moved in the previous turn", so you would indeed automatically hit.

Unless the vehicle used a Scout move......................

don_mondo wrote:Unless the vehicle used a Scout move......................

Scout moves aren't during a "previous turn", they take place before the game begins, outside of the turn sequence.

They would therefore be autohit.

biccat wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Unless the vehicle used a Scout move......................

Scout moves aren't during a "previous turn", they take place before the game begins, outside of the turn sequence.

They would therefore be autohit.

BRB FAQ page 7 wrote:Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in
combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

Precious few vehicles can scout anyway, so it doesn't come up much.

I'd say, as has been said, that if they haven't moved yet when you hit them, they are autohit.

Getting that 1st turn assualt isn't that easy, unless your opponent has been a bit dim, or you have some neat special rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

biccat wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Unless the vehicle used a Scout move......................

Scout moves aren't during a "previous turn", they take place before the game begins, outside of the turn sequence.

They would therefore be autohit.

BRB FAQ page 7 wrote:Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in
combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

Ah yes, well there you go.

I don't think I've ever seen this come up in a game, tbh.

well i turbo boosted with my deffkopters on the scouting phase then went in after and assaulted. Assuming i did that all according to the Warhammer code.

Valid tactic, yes.

Turbo scout for thr cover save, rokkits away and then assualt with Buzzsaw.

Buzzkoptas get pretty spendy for such a fragile unit, though, and will be stranded on the other end of the board next to some very annoyed foes.

Still learning, I haven't really looked into to many ork tactics. Any tips for taking out the rail guns my tau buddy keeps putting in the corners?

If they are Broadside suits, take a squad of Kommandos (with or without snikrot, but he takes the randomness out of your arrival) and jump them from behind.

Hammerheads- same tactic. If you don't take Snikrot (who isn't shabby at killing vehicles in assault as long as they aren't AV 12 or better on the back) you can take a PK nob for the unit, who can crack Tau vehicles like eggs.

Just be wary of those hull-mounted flechettes. They are UGLY on orks.

jtarry wrote:Still learning, I haven't really looked into to many ork tactics. Any tips for taking out the rail guns my tau buddy keeps putting in the corners?

Don't take vehicles and spread out. Railguns tend to be very useless against infantry.

If you can't do that, then kommnados deffkoptas, and a KFF are pretty much your best options for dealing with them.

Thanks for the help guys ill definitely try those tactics.

Snikrot is a horrible enemy for anyone who hangs out in the back field. My friend runs him with a full 30 ard boyz and a big mek. Powerklaws are horrible for vehicles

Um, how?

He can't be attached to Ardboyz, as he's not a SC.

He's an upgrade character for Kommandos, to whom you can then attach IC's.

Or did you mean that he's in the same army as the ardboys and the bigmek?

Just to note...there really isnt any way to hit vehicles on the first turn. (unless one of the recent errata updates changed things, havnet noticed this bit to have been changed however)

All of the to hit options are based upon what the vehicles did on their previous turn, and since the vehicles have not had a previous turn we do not have a way to score hits. Some tournements do rule that vehicles are auto hit, some rule that they are hit on a 4+.

If your gaming group goes with the auto hit, then by all means take koptas with, first turn hits on vehicles can cripple many armies, or else force them to change their deployment and go into reserves.

Space marine bikes can get first turn assaults with a PF or melta bomb as well, so knowing how your local group rules on this can be fairly important.



Sliggoth

There's no basis for ruling a hit on 4+ on the first turn. Just saying.

The only ruling I've see is auto-hit. I agree that it's a hole in the rules, but the ruling about Scout moves seems to indicate that GW is aware of it and aware that not having had a prior movement phase and getting assaulted has this result.

There is no basis for ruling a hit on a 4+ on the first turn.

There is no basisi for ruling an auto hit on the first turn.

There is no basis for even being able to hit AT ALL a vehicle that has not had a previous turn.



That all being said, a 4+ is sometimes ruled as being "fair". Its sort of an average between an auto hit if the vehicle hasnt moved onto the battlefield vs the idea that the vehicles have all just driven onto the battlefield at full speed.

However, its also popular to misread the rule and go with the idea that since the vehicle hasnt had a previous turn its the same as the vehicle being stationary the previous turn (which is the requirement for autohits)




Sliggoth

It's not misreading a rule. It's a yes or no question - if there was no previous turn, the answer is no.

Can happen pretty easily with eldar versus marines. Land raiders usually get deployed nice and close to the front of the board. You can set up swooping hawks at the front of your board and assault a vehicle 19"-24" away.

rigeld2 wrote:It's not misreading a rule. It's a yes or no question - if there was no previous turn, the answer is no.

This is 100% correct.

"It's a yes or no question - if there was no previous turn, the answer is no."

Correct, there is no previous turn. And the only way to hit a vehicle is for a vehicle to have had a previous turn.

If a vehicle remained stationary in its previous turn it is automatically hit. On its first turn did the vehicle remain stationary on its previous turn? If not then of course it isnt automatically hit.




ALL of the options to hit a vehicle are based upon how the vehicle moved in its previous turn.


The RAW doesnt provide a way to hit a vehicle that has not had a prvious turn, so we are left with trying to create a ruling with no rules covering the first turn assault on vehicles.



Sliggoth


PS SM scout bike squads are really really good for this. A 100 point squad can deliver a PF/ melta bomb sergeant anywhere he needs to be, plus they are a very useful squad for stealing objectives when they arent used for the first strike anti-armor option.

I reiterate, that given the following ruling from the main rulebook FAQ, it appears to me that GW is aware and that the intent is to get auto-hits.

Q: During the first turn of the game does a Scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in
combat against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

Sliggoth wrote:Correct, there is no previous turn. And the only way to hit a vehicle is for a vehicle to have had a previous turn.

If a vehicle remained stationary in its previous turn it is automatically hit. On its first turn did the vehicle remain stationary on its previous turn? If not then of course it isnt automatically hit.
ALL of the options to hit a vehicle are based upon how the vehicle moved in its previous turn.

The RAW doesnt provide a way to hit a vehicle that has not had a prvious turn, so we are left with trying to create a ruling with no rules covering the first turn assault on vehicles.

No, it did not move in its previous turn, because it didn't have a previous turn, so it could not have moved.

Also the FaQ addresses what happens with scout moves, so did the vehicle move using a scout move? No = Auto Hit.

But...the rule doesnt care about whether or not the vehicle did not move.

The vehcle is only auto hit if it REMAINED STATIONARY in its previous turn.

No, it did not remain stationary in its previous turn, because it it didnt have a previous turn, so it could not have remained stationary.



It works both ways, all of the rules used to determine if its an auto hit, a 4+ hit, etc look to what the vehicle did in its previous turn. This is why any ruling that allows vehicles to be hit on the first turn require a house rule, the RAW not covering how to hit a vehilce that has not yet had a move.


Sliggoth

The FaQ tells us that the scout move portion of the first turn acts as the previous turn as far as vehicle is concerned.

Either way, remaining stationary and not moving are synonymous. they mean the exact same thing.

and by that logic, the game crashes when a turn 1 assault on a vehicle happens.

blood angels can do this easily with the stormraven, death company or assault squad then dreadnoughts with fleet

Edit: Death company or assault squad usually can not get a 1st turn assault, as they do not have the "Fleet" USR.

sorry if it wasnt clear, was directed at the arguements of Sliggoth that 1st turn vehicle assault requires a house rule due to RAW.

Stormraven deploy 12" from bottom edge, move flatout 24 during scout move, move 12" on turn 1, then disembark. thats more than 36" of movement, easy enough to get within assault distance for the infantry while the death company dread fleets (i've tried this and the dread cant disembark from the front due to all the infantry taking the front space so he has to disembark from the back)