Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Astronomi-con used to have a pretty decent comp scoring system that worked purely via the FOC.
Basically you had 1HQ/1Elite/3Troops/1Fast/1Heavy as 'freebie' choices and would keep you at a perfect 20pts for your comp.
The system then dinged you -1pts for adding additional selections. The big -2/-3 hits came when you took multiples of the same elite/fast/heavy options. (basically, to avoid spam abuses)
Keep in mind this system is for a 1500pts tournament where every single table has a unique senario, and objectives can typically be claimed by most any infantry/jump infantry/model with 'hands' capable of holding or carrying stuff!
It worked decently, though a few themed lists were unfairly hit pretty hard. What really killed the comp system though was the introduction of all the FOC swaping special characters. So Astro has dropped comp for now untill a new system can be tried out and generally agreed upon.
2012/03/29 14:30:35
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Grakmar wrote:I've always wanted to see a system where several major tournaments all get together. Then, they total up each and every unit played in a tournament.
The most used 1% of units gets a 10% point increase. The 2-10% top used units gets a 5% point increase. The 1% least used units get a 10% point decrease, and the 2-10% least used units get a 5% point decrease.
You then take those new point totals to the next tournament, and repeat the same process again and again, slowly adjusting points to some to make them more balanced.
This is still working of the arbitrary assumption that using a unit means it's too cheap and that the army actually has options to take something else. In turn, you assume that every unit that is not take is too expensive, and that's the only reason it's not taken. At that point it has already failed before calculating a single value.
If an army has only limited access to ranged anti-tank(anti-horde, counter-charge), you are punishing them for bringing their only unit that can fulfill that role.
If an army has only one viable option in any given slot, you are punishing them for not taking a totally terrible option instead. Often enough, terrible doesn't have anything to do with point costs, but with how the army is set up.
If an army is themed to use one unit a lot, you are punishing it for being designed that way.
Sure, after a lot of point drops people would start picking flash gits, raptors and dark reapers, but probably not before they are heavily undercosted.
At the same time units like tactical marines, boyz, or guardsmen would increase in points until they are inferior as the other options in the same slot, because no one would pick scouts over tactical marines, boyz over gretchin or penal legion over a platoon unless the first is really overcosted. And lets not talk of armies that only have one choice in their troops slot.
But at the same time, you are basically killing any army based on a certain type of dedicated transport(chimera, rhino, trukk, battlewagon, serpent, etc), they are just used much more often than regular units.
The key to "fixing" the game requires an iteration as you described, but raising and lowering points automatically without thought will not do it at all. You'd have to get at least three people with a lot of insight on their army for any given codex and then have a look at units that weren't used and why. Why is everyone using long fangs and no whirlwinds, predators or vindicators? Because they do something no one else in that army can? Hardly. So lower points for the other options and see what happens. If they still aren't used, lower them some more. If now everyone is using predators and long fangs have disapeared altogether, that was too much.
On the other hand, you'd find that the looted wagon isn't used much. You could make it free (0 points base) and you would probably still not see it used too often. Allow units to pick it as dedicated transports an suddenly they start being used, without any change in cost. If you suddenly see doesens of unit dragging a boomgun allong, you better disallow for dedicated transports it next iteration.
You will probably still see platoons, boyz and tactical marines used a lot more than their alternatives. You don't need to fix that, boyz are supposed to be better than gretchin, and it's not like gretchin aren't used at all. The penal legion might need some help, but scouts are pretty much fine, like gretchin.
The trick would be providing alternatives to all those no-brainer units. You can hardly call the game being heavily unbalanced right now, so taking away those often used units without compensation(which is basically what every komp system is doing) rips up any sign of balance we already have and scatters it into the winds. There is no point in nerfing deff rolla battlewagons to the ground like the system in the OP is if it leaves orks without an option to handle a landraider at all. Fixing the system in a way that a player actually has a reason to bring a deff dread instead of kanz or flash gits instead of another battlewagon, that's something you should try to archive. And you need to get creative to do that, a fixed algorithm will never be that.
You also need to do the same for upgrades - if no one in their right mind would ever field anything but a las/plas razorback, there's something fishy going on there.
Excellent points. My proposed system would need to be refined significantly before it could be implemented.
But, I think a few of your objections aren't an issue. For example, armies with a single troop choice wouldn't be hurt (they'd probably be helped), as even with players spamming them, there's such a disproportionate number of GK players. So, GK units would all be the ones getting point increases; at least, until the codex starts to loose it's OP'ness, becomes more balanced, and people start playing the underpowered codexes that now have units for next to nothing.
blaktoof wrote:Then it would have worked for what it was intended to do.
So it was intended to make eldar and certain other armies (such as Tau) virtually unplayable while leaving other armies (such as Necrons, Dark Eldar) completely unaffected (based on 1850 pts where 25% is approx 460 points)? Cool story bro, bet you're real proud of that one...
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2012/03/29 18:03:35
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
I'll have to agree with most of the above points regarding comp.
Comp has absolutley no place in a tournament and usually ends up hurting the armies that it's trying to help out (Comp usually screws over Tau, Orks, and Tyranids that have no choice but to spam elites/fast attack or identical troops in order to even compete). On the other hand Grey Knights, IG, Space Wolves etc can easily beat the comp system without loosing much performance.
I've looked through the Sweden Komp system and found it to be an utter joke. I've built IG and SW lists that only slightly change my current tourney lists and then tried using the same system to build a decent Tau and Ork list......it couldn't be done.
Comp is useless. Sportsmanship on top of that should not be used in the scoring.
Now a sportsmanship system like yellow/red card by TOs/Refs/Judges etc would be great. One red cards and you auto-loose, two yellow cards and you auto-loose. If you are are forced out of two games you are kicked from the tournament. Granted the issue comes down to how the 'winner' is assigned victory points etc. Bye's and an opponent forfeiting can actually screw over your overall tournament ranking (game ends so you don't have the chance to get all the primary/secondary/terrtiary objectives for the maximum possible points).
It's an interesting problem. Personaly I'd like to see painting, sportsmanship, and the like all be separate awards that do not have any effect on the actual tournament. You really never see soft scores in sports tournaments....why put them in wargames?
2012/03/29 18:54:28
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
comp is terrible. it adversely, and unfairly targets and severly hurts certain armies (themed armies, and whole, entire codices), and leaves others utterly unscathed. 25% troops. thats fine if i play space wolves. I'll happily take 375+pts of troops with my awesome grey hunters. try that with my tau. 400odd points of fire warriors? *goes off laughing*
Its just like 40k players in general. i feel there is this attitude of "pull it back to 0!" if something is good, people want it "nerfed". people want to punish you for taking good, competitive choices. Like its your fault for playing for the win, like its your fault for winning. comp simply reinforces this attitude, and honestly, it solves absolutely nothing.
If anything, run with "themed lists" like in warmachine. theyre entirely optional. in order to follow a theme list, a warcaster or warlock is more limited in what they can take (eg Butcher can take only non-character jacks, and he's limited in infantry choices to Men 'o' War, winter guardsmen, widowmakers and kossites and likewise in Solo options). From that point on, provided he fulfils certain criteria (eg taking 2 MoW units, taking 3 jacks, or 4 solos) he is rewarded by a benefit. there are 4 tiers in a theme force. by fulfilling the criteria of tier 1, you can then attempt that of tier 2, and so on. A tier 4 list is quite restricted in some ways, but gets some interesting rewards.
And that is how it should be done. Reward players for playing to a certain style, dont punish them. That said, i dont know if it would, or could work in 40k, as the game is so inherently unbalanced.
I feel terrible for space wolf players whose theme is missile launchers and thunderwolves too. It's definitely unfair to single them out. Also people from razor-back heavy blood angels successor chapters and all-purifier grey knight players. We all bleed for them. (Except they actually benefit from comp. Whoops!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/29 19:05:44
Ahahahaha. I just ran my 1500 tournament list through the Swedish algorithm (linked in the OP)
My IG list scores a 36 which is fairly "balanced" (50 is "ideal) in their eyes. I do not have to change anything.....this is also this list that I'm 12-3-2 (W-L-D) with in tournaments. Hell I can bring it up to near 50 just by dropping a Veteran Squad and the Scout Sentinels and picking up two small units of stormtroopers. My list really doesn't suffer for doing so one bit.
And now I'll do it for my 1500 point Tau list. Well look at the 13.5.....and this list struggles to win. A list with a score of 0 is illegal to play and this list is considered "unbalanced" so it suffers penalties.
Sooooo how does the Swedish Komp balance the game again? I honestly feel sorry for you guys over there. Why do you tolerate this kind of crap? I also noticed that there are 7 authors....uhm.....who determined to let them decide what "balanced" means. What a load of tripe.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/29 20:16:35
2012/03/29 20:06:15
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
kb305 wrote:purifiers, razorbacks, psybolt ammo, th/ss terms, etc.
Since when are these hard to beat? Purifier Spam has a lot of inherent flaws that isn't too difficult to get around. Yes they hit hard, but so do a lot of codicies...and honestly pure power-armored grey knights really aren't that tough or scary in a competitive environment. They can be noob-slayer lists (like Draigowing...which is is in reality pathetically easy to beat aside from Draigo himself). If you don't know how to handle that sort of list (or refuse/can't to build a list/play using tactics to beat them) then that's your problem, not the game's.
Yes 40k is far from balanced. But of the big 3 wargames (40k, Warmahordes, Flames of War) it does have one of the best tournament settings (assuming NOVA format with decent terrain of course).
When fanbois who aren't game designers (sadly GW is going towards this trend, but hey, they produce the game) decide to try and "fix" things (Swedish Komp, the INAT, etc) the game usually breaks even more.
2012/03/29 20:33:58
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Nungunz wrote:Ahahahaha. I just ran my 1500 tournament list through the Swedish algorithm (linked in the OP)
My IG list scores a 36 which is fairly "balanced" (50 is "ideal) in their eyes. I do not have to change anything.....this is also this list that I'm 12-3-2 (W-L-D) with in tournaments. Hell I can bring it up to near 50 just by dropping a Veteran Squad and the Scout Sentinels and picking up two small units of stormtroopers. My list really doesn't suffer for doing so one bit.
And now I'll do it for my 1500 point Tau list. Well look at the 13.5.....and this list struggles to win. A list with a score of 0 is illegal to play and this list is considered "unbalanced" so it suffers penalties.
Sooooo how does the Swedish Komp balance the game again? I honestly feel sorry for you guys over there. Why do you tolerate this kind of crap? I also noticed that there are 7 authors....uhm.....who determined to let them decide what "balanced" means. What a load of tripe.
Oddly people here seem to like it. Myself not really included, since I find a point system on top of the point system to be abit stupid and as you say "7 authors....uhm.....who determined to let them decide what "balanced" means".
Atm it seems to me that DE are the ones most benefiting from the comp (at least since they tend to win alot of tournaments), but cant say a 100% since I dont play DE and can't compare them with the comp vs regular.
Anyway most seem to like it but I still haven't had a chance to play in the big tournaments.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sudojoe wrote:how do I even take a chaos spawn? It's not a model I can include in my army. I turn your guys into a spawn via boon of mutation, an ability. That just boggles my mind an in game interaction can affect my comp score when it's essentially a random effect.
In CSM codex the spawn can be taken as an Fast Attack.
Stats (for those who dont know) is.
ws3 bs0 s5 t5 w3 i3 aD6 ld10 sv-
Beast with slow and purposeful and fearless and you can pick 1-3 in each squad.
This thing cost 40ps EACH! and are worth +1comp.
So a squad with 3spawns cost 120p and gives you +3comp. So the worst squad in game is +3comp.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/29 20:41:18
2012/03/29 20:51:30
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
kb305 wrote:purifiers, razorbacks, psybolt ammo, th/ss terms, etc.
Since when are these hard to beat? Purifier Spam has a lot of inherent flaws that isn't too difficult to get around. Yes they hit hard, but so do a lot of codicies...and honestly pure power-armored grey knights really aren't that tough or scary in a competitive environment. They can be noob-slayer lists (like Draigowing...which is is in reality pathetically easy to beat aside from Draigo himself). If you don't know how to handle that sort of list (or refuse/can't to build a list/play using tactics to beat them) then that's your problem, not the game's.
Yes 40k is far from balanced. But of the big 3 wargames (40k, Warmahordes, Flames of War) it does have one of the best tournament settings (assuming NOVA format with decent terrain of course).
When fanbois who aren't game designers (sadly GW is going towards this trend, but hey, they produce the game) decide to try and "fix" things (Swedish Komp, the INAT, etc) the game usually breaks even more.
yes yes they die like marines...
purifiers are way undercosted. period.
2012/03/29 21:07:02
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Not the point I was trying to make one bit. The whole "they die like marines" is not what makes that particular army-build flawed (in a tournament setting, in what most people consider "friendly" games, purifiers can and will rock-house).
purifiers are way undercosted. period.
Agreed, but they are what they are and do have weaknesses that can be exploited if a list was built exclusively around them.
2012/03/29 21:18:15
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I think people only whine about them being undercosted if they are playing against a compatent GK player, IE: a Veteran of the old DH codex.
In the old codex GKs were way overcosted and as such the players had to develop a strategy of preserving his numbers.
Then when the new codex comes out he suddenly has properly costed models, but he will still use his tactics of self-preservation.
And anyone who has tons of the old PAGKs will naturally gravitate to Purifiers because Halberds are only really viable on them(amoung the PAGKs) and they have tons of their old metal models.
Hence, a good portion of GK players(particularly those who win alot) will have tons of tactical experience gained under their years of the DH codex. So there may be an Illusion of Purifiers being undercosted(and they may be slightly) however the real reason is that those players are just good generals with a good codex(which will always beat a poor general with a good codex)
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
So there may be an Illusion of Purifiers being undercosted(and they may be slightly)
Purifiers are Under-Costed, not in a illusion way, but in a literal way. If you do em up properly the troop choice Strike Squad can actually be more expensive than a kitted out Purifier. That's bad internal codex issues.
2012/03/29 21:36:01
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Maybe, but how can up be sure its not that Strike Squad upgrades arn't overcosted?
Overall, the GK codex's Internal Balance is excellent. No bad units, everything can compete on even footing with other options.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote:Maybe, but how can up be sure its not that Strike Squad upgrades arn't overcosted?
Overall, the GK codex's Internal Balance is excellent. No bad units, everything can compete on even footing with other options.
I'm going to use an external cost to show off the purifiers than. They are cheaper than Sternguard units, but instead of four kinds of bullets. They get
All the GK Armywide benefits
An excellent psyker ability for beating hordes
Ability to gain S5
All force weapons
Free "Better Heavy Flamer" Equivalent
S5 Stormbolters
For only 2 points more you get to punch even at the same time as Eldar/Dark Eldar
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/29 21:58:03
2012/03/29 22:00:31
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Maybe, but how can up be sure its not that Strike Squad upgrades arn't overcosted?
Overall, the GK codex's Internal Balance is excellent. No bad units, everything can compete on even footing with other options.
I'm going to use an external cost to show off the purifiers than. They are cheaper than Sternguard units, but instead of four kinds of bullets. They get
All the GK Armywide benefits
An excellent psyker ability for beating hordes
Ability to gain S5
All force weapons
Free "Better Heavy Flamer" Equivalent
S5 Stormbolters
For only 2 points more you get to punch even at the same time as Eldar/Dark Eldar
Keep in mind that GKs were designed with 6th edition in mind(and possably the 6th edition SM codex)
You really can't compare a new book to one that's fairly old.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote:Maybe, but how can up be sure its not that Strike Squad upgrades arn't overcosted?
Overall, the GK codex's Internal Balance is excellent. No bad units, everything can compete on even footing with other options.
I'm going to use an external cost to show off the purifiers than. They are cheaper than Sternguard units, but instead of four kinds of bullets. They get
All the GK Armywide benefits
An excellent psyker ability for beating hordes
Ability to gain S5
All force weapons
Free "Better Heavy Flamer" Equivalent
S5 Stormbolters
For only 2 points more you get to punch even at the same time as Eldar/Dark Eldar
Keep in mind that GKs were designed with 6th edition in mind(and possably the 6th edition SM codex)
You really can't compare a new book to one that's fairly old.
I can compare it when 6th editions not out yet, and will compare it after the edition drops, but as it is we have to deal with the now
2012/03/29 23:11:38
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Grey Templar wrote:Maybe, but how can up be sure its not that Strike Squad upgrades arn't overcosted?
Overall, the GK codex's Internal Balance is excellent. No bad units, everything can compete on even footing with other options.
I'm going to use an external cost to show off the purifiers than. They are cheaper than Sternguard units, but instead of four kinds of bullets. They get
All the GK Armywide benefits
An excellent psyker ability for beating hordes
Ability to gain S5
All force weapons
Free "Better Heavy Flamer" Equivalent
S5 Stormbolters
For only 2 points more you get to punch even at the same time as Eldar/Dark Eldar
psykout grenades
veteran stats
cheap upgrades
for 255 points the ammount of stuff you get is disgusting
4x upgraded flamer. actually more like double upgraded - strength 6.
5x halbreds
1x thunder hammer. everyone else pays 30 points for these? why do these guys pay 5?
255. that's game breaking. at 1500 points you could take 50 purifiers. you would actually have 70 points left over, so lets add 7 psycannons to them.
2012/03/29 23:42:43
Subject: Re:In Sweden we have a thing called Komp.
Grey Templar wrote:Keep in mind that GKs were designed with 6th edition in mind(and possably the 6th edition SM codex)
You really can't compare a new book to one that's fairly old.
That is one of the worst and most stupid things I see commonly said at Dakka. Of course he can, in fact, no one has any other possibility. He puts his SM miniatures in THIS edition so why the hell they can't be compared? I can even compare my 4ed codex with eny new 5ed codex. I have to directly confront different codex now but I can't compare to them now because something can change after a year? How stupid is that.
"In 5 years when new edition is released and new GK codex is released and new SM codex is released they may or may not be balanced so right now you can't compare them" lol
FYI: I don't expect great balance from GW, that ship has sailed a loooooong time ago and it's not coming back, ever. But that justification for such a imbalance is just pitiful.
Good things are good,.. so it's good
Keep our city clean.
Report your death to the Department of Expiration
Yet, purifier horde GK lists aren't winning tournaments left and right. Why?
Because the unit you are comparing, sternguard, has two important advantages over purifiers.
1. Drop pods. How often do you see sternguard taken without drop pods?
2. Meltas. The main reason to take sternguard is not to cut down hordes of MEQ running around everywhere, it's to kill vehicles.
Purifiers don't have drop pods or meltas. They don't have either of the two "best" abilities that sternguard do.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
ph34r wrote:Yet, purifier horde GK lists aren't winning tournaments left and right. Why?
Because the unit you are comparing, sternguard, has two important advantages over purifiers.
1. Drop pods. How often do you see sternguard taken without drop pods?
2. Meltas. The main reason to take sternguard is not to cut down hordes of MEQ running around everywhere, it's to kill vehicles.
Purifiers don't have drop pods or meltas. They don't have either of the two "best" abilities that sternguard do.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner right here!
Granted that's only part of the reason all-purifier and all strike-squad lists don't work well in tournies, but it is a portion of it.
ph34r wrote:Yet, purifier horde GK lists aren't winning tournaments left and right. Why?
Because the unit you are comparing, sternguard, has two important advantages over purifiers.
1. Drop pods. How often do you see sternguard taken without drop pods?
2. Meltas. The main reason to take sternguard is not to cut down hordes of MEQ running around everywhere, it's to kill vehicles.
Purifiers don't have drop pods or meltas. They don't have either of the two "best" abilities that sternguard do.
no way. pods make them even more expensive. 5 sternguard in a pod with meltas is 185 points. provided it doesnt scatter and lands in the perfect position and you roll well, it comes down and kills one vehicle. who cares? the next turn all of those sternguards are dead. melta guns suck compared to psycannons anyways. point for point psycannon is one of the best and most versatile weapons in the game:
huge threat radius compared to a melta gun. do you want 6 inchs or 24 inchs?
it has a high strength, will rip apart transports
can pen even the strongest armour with rends
high volume of fire, kills infantry in droves
doubles as both a heavy and assault weapon
cheap
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/30 02:27:28
ph34r wrote:Yet, purifier horde GK lists aren't winning tournaments left and right. Why?
Because the unit you are comparing, sternguard, has two important advantages over purifiers.
1. Drop pods. How often do you see sternguard taken without drop pods?
2. Meltas. The main reason to take sternguard is not to cut down hordes of MEQ running around everywhere, it's to kill vehicles.
Purifiers don't have drop pods or meltas. They don't have either of the two "best" abilities that sternguard do.
no way. pods make them even more expensive. 5 sternguard in a pod with meltas is 185 points. provided it doesnt scatter and lands in the perfect position and you roll well, it comes down and kills one vehicle. who cares? the next turn all of those sternguards are dead. melta guns suck compared to psycannons anyways. point for point psycannon is one of the best and most versatile weapons in the game:
huge threat radius compared to a melta gun. do you want 6 inchs or 24 inchs?
it has a high strength, will rip apart transports
can pen even the strongest armour with rends
high volume of fire, kills infantry in droves
doubles as both a heavy and assault weapon
cheap
You run 10 and combat squad out the pod...
As for comp, it doesn't work for the reasons many have put forward. If you want tournaments to be fair, 1250-1500pts is a good start, keeps spam and deathstar a little more in check. Making sure los blocking terrain and terrain in general is plentiful and up to the standards in the brb is so overlooked its not even funny.
5.000 
2.000
a million billion points
prepare to be purged
