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There is a difference between being advanced and just having a lot of fluff. That's more the case with the IoM. They aren't advanced, but the depth of there fuff produces a lot of one off plot devices that makes them look more advanced then they are meant to be.

nomotog wrote:There is a difference between being advanced and just having a lot of fluff. That's more the case with the IoM. They aren't advanced, but the depth of there fuff produces a lot of one off plot devices that makes them look more advanced then they are meant to be.

Can you be specific? I'm not sure if I follow you here.

I want to know how anyone knows what an alien species who doesn't talk to them thinks and knows

Every time this thread comes up, I say the same thing. There's quite a clear standard here: the Cold War.

1) The Tau are like America, focusing on efficiency of force and the firepower of an individual soldier. Their technology emphasizes the strength of a weapon, and their warfighting style is to bring many of those strong weapons to bear in a small place as to compensate for their tiny numbers. As the scale of the battle increases, the relative firepower possessed by the Tau decreases. (For example, squad on squad the Tau have great firepower. Army on army, not so much.)

2) The Imperial Guard are like the Soviet Union, focusing on maximization of force and the firepower of entire armies. Their technology emphasizes reliability and ease of production with power taking a secondary stance. Their warfighting style is more static, utilizing overwhelming numbers of infallible, easily-produced weapons (such as Leman Russes and Lasguns) to overwhelm the enemy. This means that, while an individual squad may be rather weak, entire armies possess unimaginable firepower, and the loss of any one tank squadron or infantry company is insignificant.


A Hammerhead is an Abrams tank - slightly less reliable than it's IG counterpart, but high-tech and powerful.

A Leman Russ is a T-80U - more well armored and more reliable than the Abrams, but slower and lower tech. The lower tech is not because the Russians have not developed the same technology, however - it is because they deliberately emphasize ease of production and repair. This means that, for a small sacrifice in power, the Leman Russ is overwhelmingly numerous.

Just remember - professionals think in logistics.

Ignatius wrote:

nomotog wrote:There is a difference between being advanced and just having a lot of fluff. That's more the case with the IoM. They aren't advanced, but the depth of there fuff produces a lot of one off plot devices that makes them look more advanced then they are meant to be.

Can you be specific? I'm not sure if I follow you here.

The more fluff an army has, the more advanced they become. Think about the bolter. One type of round has a micro computer and can home in on a target, but without BL Novels, it wouldn't have that ability. With out alternate SM codexs, you whoudln't have things like Psycannon Bolts or Bloodshard shells. The deathwatch RPG adds tons of bolts by itself.

So... in a setting that has no defined canon, and relies (quite heavily) on a series of novels by over a dozen different authors to fill in all the background information the Codices lack, this is somehow proof of their technological inferiority?

Not really following this line of thinking here...

Psienesis wrote:So... in a setting that has no defined canon, and relies (quite heavily) on a series of novels by over a dozen different authors to fill in all the background information the Codices lack, this is somehow proof of their technological inferiority?

Not really following this line of thinking here...

No defined canon, how did you come to this conclusion?

Psienesis wrote:So... in a setting that has no defined canon, and relies (quite heavily) on a series of novels by over a dozen different authors to fill in all the background information the Codices lack, this is somehow proof of their technological inferiority?

Not really following this line of thinking here...

No. What I'm saying is that the depth of their fluff makes them look more advanced then they are.

nomotog wrote:

Psienesis wrote:So... in a setting that has no defined canon, and relies (quite heavily) on a series of novels by over a dozen different authors to fill in all the background information the Codices lack, this is somehow proof of their technological inferiority?

Not really following this line of thinking here...

No. What I'm saying is that the depth of their fluff makes them look more advanced then they are.

Uh... But it doesn't make them look more advanced, but makes them actually more advanced. And if their fluff makes the more advanced, doesn't it mean that they are more advanced?

AtoMaki wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Psienesis wrote:So... in a setting that has no defined canon, and relies (quite heavily) on a series of novels by over a dozen different authors to fill in all the background information the Codices lack, this is somehow proof of their technological inferiority?

Not really following this line of thinking here...

No. What I'm saying is that the depth of their fluff makes them look more advanced then they are.

Uh... But it doesn't make them look more advanced, but makes them actually more advanced. And if their fluff makes the more advanced, doesn't it mean that they are more advanced?

Try looking at it the other way around then, if a race lacks the fluff that backs up its rules, then of course the Imperium will "seem" more advanced. The fact remains out of all the factions that exist, the Imperium is the least advanced. it is archaic, with the emphasis on reverence of machines over the importance of understanding them. Nearly every other race knowns and understands their technology to the point of being able to mass produce it. whereas the Imperium RELIES on STC machines to tell them what to build, how high and if they can use the loo

AtoMaki wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Psienesis wrote:So... in a setting that has no defined canon, and relies (quite heavily) on a series of novels by over a dozen different authors to fill in all the background information the Codices lack, this is somehow proof of their technological inferiority?

Not really following this line of thinking here...

No. What I'm saying is that the depth of their fluff makes them look more advanced then they are.

Uh... But it doesn't make them look more advanced, but makes them actually more advanced. And if their fluff makes the more advanced, doesn't it mean that they are more advanced?

Maybe? When a lot of different people disagree with you, your probably wrong.

Edit: and AnUnearthlyChilde made my point better then I was making it.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:The fact remains out of all the factions that exist, the Imperium is the least advanced. it is archaic, with the emphasis on reverence of machines over the importance of understanding them.

The Imperium might not understand its techology as well (it certainly does to an extent, and the Adeptus Mechanicus develops new technology as well, otherwise they wouldn't have experimental technology on a planet that the Orks managed to get their hands on - it's an exaggeration to say that the Imperium is completely stagnant) as, say, the Tau, but it sure has superior technology at the upper end of the scale. Generally, the Imperium is also more advanced than the Orks, with relatively few exceptions. Yes, the Eldar and Necrons are more advanced than the Imperium, but they were always supposed to be.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
Try looking at it the other way around then, if a race lacks the fluff that backs up its rules, then of course the Imperium will "seem" more advanced. The fact remains out of all the factions that exist, the Imperium is the least advanced. it is archaic, with the emphasis on reverence of machines over the importance of understanding them. Nearly every other race knowns and understands their technology to the point of being able to mass produce it. whereas the Imperium RELIES on STC machines to tell them what to build, how high and if they can use the loo

I can't see how the two relates to each other. I mean the technology possessed and the understanding of said technology. If i have advanced tech, then i have it: i can use it, i can produce it - and frankly, nothing else matters.

Its kind of like two prehistorical men: one with a gun and the adequate knowledge to use it, and another who is simply very smart. So who is the technologically more advanced? The one with the gun or the one with the brains?

AtoMaki wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
Try looking at it the other way around then, if a race lacks the fluff that backs up its rules, then of course the Imperium will "seem" more advanced. The fact remains out of all the factions that exist, the Imperium is the least advanced. it is archaic, with the emphasis on reverence of machines over the importance of understanding them. Nearly every other race knowns and understands their technology to the point of being able to mass produce it. whereas the Imperium RELIES on STC machines to tell them what to build, how high and if they can use the loo

I can't see how the two relates to each other. I mean the technology possessed and the understanding of said technology. If i have advanced tech, then i have it: i can use it, i can produce it - and frankly, nothing else matters.

Its kind of like two prehistorical men: one with a gun and the adequate knowledge to use it, and another who is simply very smart. So who is the technologically more advanced? The one with the gun or the one with the brains?

That's not the best example. It's more like one cave man with a handgun that he thinks is magic and the other has a laser gun that he understands. It's not just that the tau understand their stuff, a lot of their stuff is the bees knees compared to the IoM stuff.

nomotog wrote: It's not just that the tau understand their stuff, a lot of their stuff is the bees knees compared to the IoM stuff.

I can't agree with this. Some of the Tau technology is better than its general IoM counterpart, but for each fancy Tau tech, the IoM has something even fancier in its lumber room. And who cares if they can understand it or not? They have it (somewhere), so it gives them the edge.

AtoMaki wrote:

nomotog wrote: It's not just that the tau understand their stuff, a lot of their stuff is the bees knees compared to the IoM stuff.

I can't agree with this. Some of the Tau technology is better than its general IoM counterpart, but for each fancy Tau tech, the IoM has something even fancier in its lumber room. And who cares if they can understand it or not? They have it (somewhere), so it gives them the edge.

And that leads back into a point I made before. The IoM only has that lumber room because of how much fluff they have. (Tau also have some nice stuff in there lumber room even if it is smaller because of the lack of fluff)

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Psienesis wrote:So... in a setting that has no defined canon, and relies (quite heavily) on a series of novels by over a dozen different authors to fill in all the background information the Codices lack, this is somehow proof of their technological inferiority?

Not really following this line of thinking here...

No defined canon, how did you come to this conclusion?

The oft-repeated and oft-quoted interview that states that a Codex, a BL novel, and a DoW video game are all equal in terms of how "canon" its information is in the setting.

This isn't Star Wars, there's no Holocron-dot-net and a guy paid by LucasArts (Leland Chee) to sit there and assign a "level of canonization" to every novel, movie, video game, plastic drinking cup, MMO and random thought with a Star Wars logo on it. GW doesn't work like that, which is why I find fluff arguments with 40K so amusing. All sides are pretty much equally correct because, as GW itself said, there's no "canon" to 40K.

nomotog wrote:
And that leads back into a point I made before. The IoM only has that lumber room because of how much fluff they have. (Tau also have some nice stuff in there lumber room even if it is smaller because of the lack of fluff)

Well, the current fluff about Tau technology (mostly the Imperial Armour 3 book) is pretty solid, so everything above that is essentially "newcron technology".

Psienesis wrote:The IG is technologically advanced... as an organization. The common infantryman, however, has no understanding of how his weapons function or how the various warmachines he operates are created or maintained.

This is not so very different from modern militaries, really,

Are you kidding? A modern soldier is an expert on his/her rifle. And cadian guardsmen are experts on their lasrifles as well. Tanks and ships is where the imperium fails to understand their own technology, but the average soldier knows his gak.

AtoMaki wrote:

nomotog wrote:
And that leads back into a point I made before. The IoM only has that lumber room because of how much fluff they have. (Tau also have some nice stuff in there lumber room even if it is smaller because of the lack of fluff)

Well, the current fluff about Tau technology (mostly the Imperial Armour 3 book) is pretty solid, so everything above that is essentially "newcron technology".

I'm not sure if your agreeing with me or not, but I wasn't thinking of the stuff in imperial armor. I was actually thinking about the Ar'Ka cannon. Now that is high technology. (I wonder if there is any other weapon like it.)

King Crow wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The IG is technologically advanced... as an organization. The common infantryman, however, has no understanding of how his weapons function or how the various warmachines he operates are created or maintained.

This is not so very different from modern militaries, really,

Are you kidding? A modern soldier is an expert on his/her rifle. And cadian guardsmen are experts on their lasrifles as well. Tanks and ships is where the imperium fails to understand their own technology, but the average soldier knows his gak.

This. Every single Imperial Guardsmen knows how to field strip their lasgun (or autogun/shotgun/ect.). Every tank crew knows how to make field repairs. Every valkyrie crew knows how to handle their bird.

Guardsmen are quite competent in their line of work. They do in fact, understand how their weapons work. Can they make them themselves? No. That seems what you are implying. That the Tau know how to manufacture their weapons, while Imperials know nothing about it. False.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:hmmm fledgling race who is constantly developing new tech or a race that has remained stagnant for millennia....

hmmmmmmmm

difficult one

You can say the same of the Necrons and Necron technology still beats Tau technology by light years

Ignatius wrote:

King Crow wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The IG is technologically advanced... as an organization. The common infantryman, however, has no understanding of how his weapons function or how the various warmachines he operates are created or maintained.

This is not so very different from modern militaries, really,

Are you kidding? A modern soldier is an expert on his/her rifle. And cadian guardsmen are experts on their lasrifles as well. Tanks and ships is where the imperium fails to understand their own technology, but the average soldier knows his gak.

This. Every single Imperial Guardsmen knows how to field strip their lasgun (or autogun/shotgun/ect.). Every tank crew knows how to make field repairs. Every valkyrie crew knows how to handle their bird.

Guardsmen are quite competent in their line of work. They do in fact, understand how their weapons work. Can they make them themselves? No. That seems what you are implying. That the Tau know how to manufacture their weapons, while Imperials know nothing about it. False.

The infantryman is knowledgeable in his kit and can repair his/her items with ease. but when you start to go anywhere above that level of technology, it starts to crumble as far as the Imperium is concerned. Parts become harder to attain, and even when parts are found, there needs to be certain religious and mechanical proceedures that have to be followed, to the letter. Imperial technology dates back to the age of technology, and such in that time, the ease of being able to fix things along with the knowledge to help them has passed out of general knowledge. Hence the Ad-Mech and it's deification of all things mechanical.

The Tau on the other hand, have no problems repairing any of their technology on any level, as all the componants needed are widespread within their empire. They have reliability on their side as well. Countless times you read of ships/weapons/tech of the Imperium break down and "all hope is lost, woe is me" nonsense follows. Tau don't have any of that. They make the trade off for reliability over power, which is more efficient at winning wars. Hence their plasma tech being superior to the Imperium. The Tau have learnt and conquered more in their short rise to power than the Imperium did in a similar space of time. This is because Tau adapt quicker than Humans, because they aren't bogged down in Imperial/Ad-Mech doctrine, which has stifled the Human race within the fluff.

Having been a modern soldier... no, we're not experts on our rifles. We're not authorized to be (that doesn't come until you hold at least the E5 rank). We can perform basic maintenance and cleaning functions, we can adjust the sights at the range.

That's... pretty much it. What we are really damn good at is the deployment of the rifle in battlefield conditions... just like a Guardsman.

If something actually breaks? We don't repair our own assault rifles. We turn them in to our unit Armorer to affect what repairs he or she can and, depending on the specific item that's broken? Replace it with another from stores and send the broken one up the chain to Battalion-supply, who repeat the process, continuing to send it up the line until it gets to a level of repair facility that is able to fix whatever's broken.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

King Crow wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The IG is technologically advanced... as an organization. The common infantryman, however, has no understanding of how his weapons function or how the various warmachines he operates are created or maintained.

This is not so very different from modern militaries, really,

Are you kidding? A modern soldier is an expert on his/her rifle. And cadian guardsmen are experts on their lasrifles as well. Tanks and ships is where the imperium fails to understand their own technology, but the average soldier knows his gak.

This. Every single Imperial Guardsmen knows how to field strip their lasgun (or autogun/shotgun/ect.). Every tank crew knows how to make field repairs. Every valkyrie crew knows how to handle their bird.

Guardsmen are quite competent in their line of work. They do in fact, understand how their weapons work. Can they make them themselves? No. That seems what you are implying. That the Tau know how to manufacture their weapons, while Imperials know nothing about it. False.

The infantryman is knowledgeable in his kit and can repair his/her items with ease. but when you start to go anywhere above that level of technology, it starts to crumble as far as the Imperium is concerned. Parts become harder to attain, and even when parts are found, there needs to be certain religious and mechanical proceedures that have to be followed, to the letter. Imperial technology dates back to the age of technology, and such in that time, the ease of being able to fix things along with the knowledge to help them has passed out of general knowledge. Hence the Ad-Mech and it's deification of all things mechanical.

The Tau on the other hand, have no problems repairing any of their technology on any level, as all the componants needed are widespread within their empire. They have reliability on their side as well. Countless times you read of ships/weapons/tech of the Imperium break down and "all hope is lost, woe is me" nonsense follows. Tau don't have any of that.
They make the trade off for reliability over power, which is more efficient at winning wars.
Never heard of a war lost because of plasma over-heating

Hence their plasma tech being superior to the Imperium.
There is a gthread on that that concluded that IoM plama is superior
The Tau have learnt and conquered more in their short rise to power than the Imperium did in a similar space of time.
And as much as they have conquered they still are a minor nuisance
This is because Tau adapt quicker than Humans, because they aren't bogged down in Imperial/Ad-Mech doctrine, which has stifled the Human race within the fluff.

Psienesis wrote:Having been a modern soldier... no, we're not experts on our rifles. We're not authorized to be (that doesn't come until you hold at least the E5 rank). We can perform basic maintenance and cleaning functions, we can adjust the sights at the range.

That's... pretty much it. What we are really damn good at is the deployment of the rifle in battlefield conditions... just like a Guardsman.

If something actually breaks? We don't repair our own assault rifles. We turn them in to our unit Armorer to affect what repairs he or she can and, depending on the specific item that's broken? Replace it with another from stores and send the broken one up the chain to Battalion-supply, who repeat the process, continuing to send it up the line until it gets to a level of repair facility that is able to fix whatever's broken.

You are comparing real life with SCI-FI.... the two are not comparable.

Sure GW have based (and might I add very loosely) things on certain cultures, but Warhammer 40K cannot be in any way compared to real war situations.

But seeming you have done, IG do not have unit armourers, they are the sole responsibility for the wellbeing and caretaking of their equipment. So no comparison.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
But seeming you have done, IG do not have unit armourers, they are the sole responsibility for the wellbeing and caretaking of their equipment. So no comparison.

Equipment is the responsibility of the Departmento Munitorium.

And i don't know why we maul the poor Guardsman for not knowing tech. A normal Fire Warrior would be also in a big trouble when his equipment breaks, because maintaining and repairing stuff is the job of the Earth Caste. And that Etheral wants a word with you if you think otherwise.

AtoMaki wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
But seeming you have done, IG do not have unit armourers, they are the sole responsibility for the wellbeing and caretaking of their equipment. So no comparison.

Equipment is the responsibility of the Departmento Munitorium.

And i don't know why we maul the poor Guardsman for not knowing tech. A normal Fire Warrior would be also in a big trouble when his equipment breaks, because maintaining and repairing stuff is the job of the Earth Caste. And that Etheral wants a word with you if you think otherwise.

When IG are posted as part of a deployment, it falls to each and every individual guardsmen to maintain their equipment... See "Every Infantrymans Uplifting Primer"

Failure to produce said document is met with the penalty of death.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
When IG are posted as part of a deployment, it falls to each and every individual guardsmen to maintain their equipment... See "Every Infantrymans Uplifting Primer"

Failure to produce said document is met with the penalty of death.

On page 21, under (V) Cleaning and maintaince you can see the following: If a problem occurs that is beyond your skill to rectify, report the fault immediately to the armourer (so they have armourers) or techseers so a proper overhaul, with the correct litanies and incantations, can be prescribed to the ailing machine.

I think its funny how a page ago, everyone was going "whats your point?" You figured it out yet. He made a place for people to scrap over the stupidist things. Whether or not fire warriors or IG can repair their own guns. really? Is there any point to this arguement?