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You are comparing real life with SCI-FI.... the two are not comparable.

Scroll up a bit to King Crow's post, which is where the point about soldiers being "experts on the rifle" comes in. There's a world of difference between being able to deploy, reload and field-strip your weapon and being an expert on its construction, properties of function, inner workings and so forth and so on.

My point stands towards him as well.

The fact is, this game is fiction. sure I like to debate logicalities of the story, but to take fiction and compare it to reality just can't be done. no matter how you word it.

This is true... though I maintain my stance that, as an organization, the IoM is incredibly technologically-advanced... even if their ground-troops aren't particularly bright.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one

They have hand-grenades that can trap you out of time.

Missiles that open rifts into the Warp.

Engines that move you faster than the speed of light by transporting you through a completely different dimension.

Swords (and axes and hand-claws) that cut through pretty much anything imaginable with very little effort.

Personal force-fields.

Sixty-meter tall walking war machines that are psychically linked with their pilot.

... and they're not "technologically advanced"? <o.0>

I never said they weren't advanced... I just disagree on how advanced they are by comparison to other species.

Psienesis wrote:This is true... though I maintain my stance that, as an organization, the IoM is incredibly technologically-advanced... even if their ground-troops aren't particularly bright.

The Tau "fire cast" warriors I guess aren't particullary bright either.

They might not be, overall. Being that the Fire Caste is bred, specifically, for war, their minds may be genetically predisposed to thinking tactically, analyzing a given range of sensory input and all that sort of thing...

... they might be smart when it comes to tactics and battle planning, but utter imbeciles when it comes to scientific learning, as that's the job of another Caste.

is it not funny that the Imperium of Man has some of the most powerful weapons on this side of the universe but in some situations they are seen as the underdogs of a fight? Has anyone mentioned the vault that is at mars that contains all of the survivreing knowledge from the dark age.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:I never said they weren't advanced... I just disagree on how advanced they are by comparison to other species.

Tau have only one thing Psienesis said about Imperial technological capabilities... personal force fields.

What do the Tau have specifically that makes them more advanced than the Imperium. We are all talking around in circles. Let's just get to the bottom of it.

I'm of the mind that, with the exception of the Necrons, all of the other races are on a more-or-less equal footing when one considers the totality of their technological capabilities. Necron technology is so hyper-advanced as to appear as magic to pretty much everyone else, even the Eldar in many regards.

Now, in one specific area of tech, a given faction might be superior to another, such as Tau personal battle armor (Battlesuits) and main-line assault arms (plasma rifles) compared to the IoM standard of flak/carapace and lasguns... but this is just a small slice of the technology pie.

*sigh*

Ok people, enough talking in circles. Let us get to the bottom of this:

Size matters

Imperium is technologically more advanced then Tau, that is a fact not a discussion. The problem we are having here is that people can't understand the size of those two empires. For example, Imperium has million worlds ( more or less ). If you start counting to 1.000.000 now [ in that way that every next second is one number higher ] it would take you almost 12 days to reach 1.000.000. That number alone is proff enough how widespread and big the Imperium is, and you can't have the same level of technology available to every planet and to every Human out there. Example for this could be found in our modern world: the latest technology is primary available in North America, Europe, Asia and Australia while all others have to wait. Some people have houses with voice recognition systems that turns on/off lights, open doors etc... while most people have ordinary houses in which almost all things must be done manually; some people don't even have windows on their house. Some people have satellite TV, some don't; some people have sport cars; some don't; some militaristic have top of the line jets, some don't...
You can't have the same level of technology everywhere when your territory is huge. Tau empire is just slightly over 100 worlds, with most of their population concentrated on 26 major Sept worlds. So Tau will have no problem disturbing pulse rifles to every solder in the empire, on the other hand Imperium have much more Humans then Lasguns, So the most advanced tech would be available to chosen few while others would have to use much more simpler and widely available tools.

Not everyone is a rocket scientist

Like it was said in this thread: why must Guardsmen know how his Lasgun work and from what it is made of? He only needs to know few things: how to use it, change setting, maintain, reload. He doesn't need to know how to build it or how his rifle actually works - that is a job for Munitorium and Mechanicus. Same goes for Tau, Fire Warriors only have to know how to use their equipment and how to maintain it. FW doesn't have to know how to build another Pulse Rifle when his own broke or malfunction. Like in every army there are few individuals who knows much more than that. Who are actually able to do field repairs or to combine some 3'rd source to make their stuff actually work. But to know how to create the thing you are using is not necessary and has nothing to do with technological advancement, that is left for scientist and engineers. For example, I am studying computer science and I am using computer in my everyday work. So I know how much of the things work but I can grantee that I can't build one from scratch with my own hands, do that make me and my society technologically incapable?

Side factors

It's funny that nobody noticed the big bad war Imperium is waging on all fronts across hundreds upon thousands of world at any given time, that kind of situation make any technological advancement slow as resources for research are used in war effort. Ad there is also a factor of enemy forces destroying research facilities and forge worlds in which Imperium is losing precious data. That is why they keep their most advanced technology and weapons for most dire situations while equipping their forces with one that are reliable and more easier to manufacture. On the other hand, Tau have rather calmly situation on it's borders and most of it's resources can go to scientific research and citizen's standard. Imperium have also choose to use his most valuable asset - the sheer number of it's forces. The Tau has no such luck so they decided to use their top of the line tech and equip every solder with it. That doesn't mean Tau are more advanced, they have just adapted to the current situation just like the Imperium.

Hope this helps to clear some doubt, I had more to say on this subject but this will be more then enough.

Psienesis wrote:Having been a modern soldier... no, we're not experts on our rifles. We're not authorized to be (that doesn't come until you hold at least the E5 rank). We can perform basic maintenance and cleaning functions, we can adjust the sights at the range.

That's... pretty much it. What we are really damn good at is the deployment of the rifle in battlefield conditions... just like a Guardsman.

If something actually breaks? We don't repair our own assault rifles. We turn them in to our unit Armorer to affect what repairs he or she can and, depending on the specific item that's broken? Replace it with another from stores and send the broken one up the chain to Battalion-supply, who repeat the process, continuing to send it up the line until it gets to a level of repair facility that is able to fix whatever's broken.

Yeah i'm aware that soldiers can't make a field repair unless they have the proper parts and sometimes they can't diagnose what's wrong with the rifle, but a soldier knows every milimeter of their rifle because they have to clean them all fething day.

King Crow wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Having been a modern soldier... no, we're not experts on our rifles. We're not authorized to be (that doesn't come until you hold at least the E5 rank). We can perform basic maintenance and cleaning functions, we can adjust the sights at the range.

That's... pretty much it. What we are really damn good at is the deployment of the rifle in battlefield conditions... just like a Guardsman.

If something actually breaks? We don't repair our own assault rifles. We turn them in to our unit Armorer to affect what repairs he or she can and, depending on the specific item that's broken? Replace it with another from stores and send the broken one up the chain to Battalion-supply, who repeat the process, continuing to send it up the line until it gets to a level of repair facility that is able to fix whatever's broken.

Yeah i'm aware that soldiers can't make a field repair unless they have the proper parts and sometimes they can't diagnose what's wrong with the rifle, but a soldier knows every milimeter of their rifle because they have to clean them all fething day.

Just because you clean something doesn't mean you know exactly how it works. I doubt that every soldier knows exactly what every pin, spring, ect. in their rifle does. I've never run into anyone that doesn't, at least not at Fort Drum and in my platoon anyway. There is a difference between knowing where a piece goes and how to clean it than knowing exactly what it does.

Ignatius wrote:

King Crow wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Having been a modern soldier... no, we're not experts on our rifles. We're not authorized to be (that doesn't come until you hold at least the E5 rank). We can perform basic maintenance and cleaning functions, we can adjust the sights at the range.

That's... pretty much it. What we are really damn good at is the deployment of the rifle in battlefield conditions... just like a Guardsman.

If something actually breaks? We don't repair our own assault rifles. We turn them in to our unit Armorer to affect what repairs he or she can and, depending on the specific item that's broken? Replace it with another from stores and send the broken one up the chain to Battalion-supply, who repeat the process, continuing to send it up the line until it gets to a level of repair facility that is able to fix whatever's broken.

Yeah i'm aware that soldiers can't make a field repair unless they have the proper parts and sometimes they can't diagnose what's wrong with the rifle, but a soldier knows every milimeter of their rifle because they have to clean them all fething day.

Just because you clean something doesn't mean you know exactly how it works. I doubt that every soldier knows exactly what every pin, spring, ect. in their rifle does. I've never run into anyone that doesn't, at least not at Fort Drum and in my platoon anyway. There is a difference between knowing where a piece goes and how to clean it than knowing exactly what it does.

Having known many a squaddie, I have to say our lads in the British forces do know what everything is for, as they take it as a matter of pride to make sure they know every inch of their SA80's (Current model being L85A2). But I guess every armed forces are different.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

King Crow wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Having been a modern soldier... no, we're not experts on our rifles. We're not authorized to be (that doesn't come until you hold at least the E5 rank). We can perform basic maintenance and cleaning functions, we can adjust the sights at the range.

That's... pretty much it. What we are really damn good at is the deployment of the rifle in battlefield conditions... just like a Guardsman.

If something actually breaks? We don't repair our own assault rifles. We turn them in to our unit Armorer to affect what repairs he or she can and, depending on the specific item that's broken? Replace it with another from stores and send the broken one up the chain to Battalion-supply, who repeat the process, continuing to send it up the line until it gets to a level of repair facility that is able to fix whatever's broken.

Yeah i'm aware that soldiers can't make a field repair unless they have the proper parts and sometimes they can't diagnose what's wrong with the rifle, but a soldier knows every milimeter of their rifle because they have to clean them all fething day.

Just because you clean something doesn't mean you know exactly how it works. I doubt that every soldier knows exactly what every pin, spring, ect. in their rifle does. I've never run into anyone that doesn't, at least not at Fort Drum and in my platoon anyway. There is a difference between knowing where a piece goes and how to clean it than knowing exactly what it does.

Having known many a squaddie, I have to say our lads in the British forces do know what everything is for, as they take it as a matter of pride to make sure they know every inch of their SA80's (Current model being L85A2). But I guess every armed forces are different.

Note I did say I've never met anyone that doesn't, I was just making a point about assumptions.

Ignatius wrote:

King Crow wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Having been a modern soldier... no, we're not experts on our rifles. We're not authorized to be (that doesn't come until you hold at least the E5 rank). We can perform basic maintenance and cleaning functions, we can adjust the sights at the range.

That's... pretty much it. What we are really damn good at is the deployment of the rifle in battlefield conditions... just like a Guardsman.

If something actually breaks? We don't repair our own assault rifles. We turn them in to our unit Armorer to affect what repairs he or she can and, depending on the specific item that's broken? Replace it with another from stores and send the broken one up the chain to Battalion-supply, who repeat the process, continuing to send it up the line until it gets to a level of repair facility that is able to fix whatever's broken.

Yeah i'm aware that soldiers can't make a field repair unless they have the proper parts and sometimes they can't diagnose what's wrong with the rifle, but a soldier knows every milimeter of their rifle because they have to clean them all fething day.

Just because you clean something doesn't mean you know exactly how it works. I doubt that every soldier knows exactly what every pin, spring, ect. in their rifle does. I've never run into anyone that doesn't, at least not at Fort Drum and in my platoon anyway. There is a difference between knowing where a piece goes and how to clean it than knowing exactly what it does.

idk, My brother was in the Army and he is defiantly an expert on the m4. But i see what you're saying. A cadian guardsmen probably isn't a qualified gunsmith. but then again i imagine a FW isn't either.

Thats what gun plumbers are for.

Sure I can assemble, disassemble, and operate the M242 25m Chain Gun. I can even tell you what every part in it is, how it needs to be maintained, and what it does in the cycle of action, but at the end of the day if its broken it goes to the gun plumbers.

My knowledge of this weapons system as a trained armoured crew member is incredibly useful, but at the end of the day Im just following what I was shown in a slide show, what is in my little aide memoire, and what I have learned by taking the thing apart 100 times.

Soldiers, Fire Warriors or Guardsman, need no greater knowledge than field maintenance and diagnostics.

similar to how the Monks in the historical European Dark Ages, Monks could copy great texts and write copies books word for word but most of them didn't know how to read or write. That is why they copied the book identically to a second book including stains, and ink blobs.

40k is suppose to be Mankind's second dark age, 10,000 years of constant war is what is causing the 40K dark ages.

daniel79 wrote:
40k is suppose to be Mankind's second dark age

Third Dark Age (at least) actually.

It's funny that nobody noticed the big bad war Imperium is waging on all fronts across hundreds upon thousands of world at any given time, that kind of situation make any technological advancement slow as resources for research are used in war effort.

Much of it self-inflicted, but we won't get into that.

On the other hand, Tau have rather calmly situation on it's borders and most of it's resources can go to scientific research and citizen's standard.

What a bunch of utter crap. They're threatened by Nids, Greenskins, Necrons, and Hrud, and having a small empire only compounds the problems. There's no 'calm' situation.



But aside from the dogmatic views of Brother Coa, I'll throw in my two cents.


The Imperium is more technologically advanced than Tau in some areas. From War Machines to Titans, the Adeptus Mechanicus have access to the blue-prints of very old technology; Warp Drives, Gellar Fields, Void Weapons (Dark Star Warheads are possibly the closes they'll ever get), that overshadow anything the Tau has developed. But I believe its the ethos of the Fire Caste and the Earth Caste and the Etheral Caste that dictate where there technology develops.

Could the Tau build Titans? No, but they would never develop one to begin with. Their focus is compacting weaponry small enough to fit on the chassis of a Crisis Suit or Hammerhead. Nothing compared to a Vulcan Cannon, but with Railguns being able to slice through Titans' armor plating with ease, do they really need it? They rely heavily on their Navy to do any serious heavy lifting.

The races are polar opposites. One believes smaller the better while the other tries to make weapons as big as mountains.

Any technology that deals with the warp does go to the Imperium soully based on the Tau's racial inability to register the warp. But I wouldn't be suprised if they get allies who can.

Now argriculturally and manufacturing wise, the Tau have the Imperium beat. That's how they become such buddy buddies with Imperial Colonies; trading tech that improves cultivation, environmental, and productivity within their small cities. Their like the hippies of the furture when it comes to that.

And I will point out that the Tau haven't gotten a fluff update yet in years, unlike the Imperium, who get updates every single time a codex gets updated, so trying to declare how powerful the Imperium is technologically advanced is rather stilted.

KplKeegan wrote:
But aside from the dogmatic views of Brother Coa, I'll throw in my two cents.

Why dogmatic? Did I say something wrong?
In comparison to the Imperium Tau live in peace and harmony. Aside from Orks in War of Dakka and several Dark Eldar raids and planets lost to Necrons there are nothing other treating their borders. If Tau were in that state they would never have large enough military force to start sphere expansions as they would be to busy defending themselves.
The last real threat to Tau was Gorgon, and he was destroyed by Tau/Imperium force.

P.S. Space Marines help Imperial forces most of the time ( Salamanders, Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Imperial Firsts, Black Templars, White Scars, Space Wolves, Dark Angels... ). Just find me a text that say otherwise - that Space Marines DO NOT help Imperial forces.

Brother Coa wrote:P.S. Space Marines help Imperial forces most of the time ( Salamanders, Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Imperial Firsts, Black Templars, White Scars, Space Wolves, Dark Angels... ). Just find me a text that say otherwise - that Space Marines DO NOT help Imperial forces.

The Taros Campaign against the Tau.
Whenever Dark Angels get wind of a Fallen's location, the pack up and leave.
If a Guardsmen sees a Grey Knight crap in the woods, does he live long enough to tell about it?
The Badab War....

Grey knights are not one the defined space marine legions. They are separate from them. so of course they execute/mindwipe any who see them.

DA also have an agenda to maintain.

Space marines exist as humanities elite soldiers. Always have Always will. Back before the great crusade they were nothing more than space police, making sure rogue traders and slavers didn't get away with things. During the Great crusade they fought to make humanity whole again united under one banner rather than warring factions.

Space Marines exist to serve.

KplKeegan, you might want to head back and read some more

Marines Malevolent. That is all.

KplKeegan wrote:
The Taros Campaign against the Tau. They didn't help because Imperial commander didn't asked them even once. They helped at the end, it is by their fight that the Imperial forces evacuated, otherwise they would be destroyed by the Tau. Taros campaign was overall poorly led when Imperial commanders didn't use Space Marines at all except in 3 engagements.
Whenever Dark Angels get wind of a Fallen's location, the pack up and leave. Vraks campaign tells us otherwise, and by the time they aquire the fallen the campaign is already over or the crusal battle is won and Guard can take it from there.
If a Guardsmen sees a Grey Knight crap in the woods, does he live long enough to tell about it? Matt Ward fluff makes sense as Twilight the movie. To me that rule doesen't exist in the fluff.
The Badab War.... So? Guard was not involved at all because that was Space Marine only conflict. Guard also had Macharian crusade, does that mean that Guard is not helping Marines at all?

Still waiting for fluff statement that Space Marines don't help Imperial forces......

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Grey knights are not one the defined space marine legions. They are separate from them. so of course they execute/mindwipe any who see them.

DA also have an agenda to maintain.

Space marines exist as humanities elite soldiers. Always have Always will. Back before the great crusade they were nothing more than space police, making sure rogue traders and slavers didn't get away with things. During the Great crusade they fought to make humanity whole again united under one banner rather than warring factions.

Space Marines exist to serve.

KplKeegan, you might want to head back and read some more

Chapter 666. Grey Knights are Space Marines. Specially designated so by the Emperor. The Emperor Of Mankind.

They still leave Imperial Forces to go chasing them. Political integrity is priority one.

Space Marines exist to serve on their own terms. They're political driven; whatever gets them the most glory they go for, they pick and choose who to help, and, unless its an Inquisitor or their Chapter Master, refuse to listen to anyone. They do what they want, when they want.


And @ Brother Coa:

The Raptors only participated in three events in the Campaign because everything the Imperial Commander needed them for was 'beneath them'. And they galavanted off to save the Elysians when the Imperial General told them not to.

KplKeegan wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Grey knights are not one the defined space marine legions. They are separate from them. so of course they execute/mindwipe any who see them.

DA also have an agenda to maintain.

Space marines exist as humanities elite soldiers. Always have Always will. Back before the great crusade they were nothing more than space police, making sure rogue traders and slavers didn't get away with things. During the Great crusade they fought to make humanity whole again united under one banner rather than warring factions.

Space Marines exist to serve.

KplKeegan, you might want to head back and read some more

Chapter 666. Grey Knights are Space Marines. Specially designated so by the Emperor. The Emperor Of Mankind.

They still leave Imperial Forces to go chasing them. Political integrity is priority one.

Space Marines exist to serve on their own terms. They're political driven; whatever gets them the most glory they go for, they pick and choose who to help, and, unless its an Inquisitor or their Chapter Master, refuse to listen to anyone. They do what they want, when they want.

Site relative pieces of fluff, and not IA as not everyone has access to it. Codex or Rulebook pages please. I sense that this is your opinion rather than anything substantial.

In regards to them listening to anyone other than their chapter master or an inquisitor thats just plain wrong. All space marine chapters report to the high lords of terra, and are completely loyal to the creed of the emperor. They serve to protect humanity.

not once have you sited a reference for your statements.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.s. The grey knights are above any beyond any chapter of space marines, and as such are not. because they do not exist as general knowledge beyond that of the high lords of terra and the inquisition.

KplKeegan wrote:
The Raptors only participated in three events in the Campaign because everything the Imperial Commander needed them for was 'beneath them'. And they galavanted off to save the Elysians when the Imperial General told them not to.

Of course they told them not to help Elysians when they sent Cadians to reinforce them, they needed Raptors to hold the pass to ensure that the Tau don't counterattack them and split their forces in two. Anyway, Space Marine commander is above any other Imperial general, even Inquisitor when it comes to commanding his brothers. Raptor commander choose to listen to Imperial General and sleep the whole day instead of raiding Tau supply lines, outpost and even attacking that refinery together with Elysians. The whole campaign was stupid, it was heavily written toward Tau side.

And of course there are some Marines who care less about civilians or fellow solders ( some of them care less even for their brothers from other Chapters ), that doesn't mean that all Space Marines refuse to help forces of the Imperium just because they don't care. Cadians are trained from age of five and they are hardcore solders when they grow up, one of the best there is. Does that mean that every Guardsmen in the galaxy is trained from age 5 and is hardcore solder?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:
Space Marines exist to serve on their own terms. They're political driven; whatever gets them the most glory they go for, they pick and choose who to help, and, unless its an Inquisitor or their Chapter Master, refuse to listen to anyone. They do what they want, when they want.

I will quote Captain Titus from "Space Marine" trailer: "I don't fight for glory, I fight for the survival of Mankind."
Funny how majority of Space Marine Chapter are doing the same thing.

And one other thing: the sole reason for the existance of the Adeptus Astartes ( other from being unstopable army of death ) is to protect and defend the rest of Mankind. That is the duty that Emepror gave the mat their founding. "They are my bulhawk agaisnt terror, they are the defenders of Humanity, they are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

Orks are the most technologically advanced... Just ask MrMerlin!