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DarthSpader wrote:i dont see why lances are so malinged. they do great on transports or light armor, and make tougher armors, not so much. ive had nothing but good reliable results from my lance weapons. and a lance is just as effective against a landraider or monolith as a railcannon, and more so then lazcannons. the only thing it lacks is the AP 1 for extra damage, but thats a pretty rare feature on anything except melta.

lance spam ftw

They're only average strength and you can't spam them. That and I generally don't do very good with them from experience. I usually have to rely on massed haywire grenades since everything else is unreliable at taking down armour. I've had dreadnoughts wade through dark lance fire and the lance advantage is lost against the majority of cheap vehicles. Usually I take my ravagers with D cannons since they can paste the elite units my wyches can't; three dark lances just isn't that good for AT. Most of the players at my club don't (due to cost) do vehicle spam anyway. Usually its just a single monolith or Russ tucked away that stubbornly refuses to blow up no matter how much I pelt it with dark lance fire. Massively loading up on lances would soak up a huge number of points and I can only take three ravagers.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:i dont see why lances are so malinged. they do great on transports or light armor, and make tougher armors, not so much. ive had nothing but good reliable results from my lance weapons. and a lance is just as effective against a landraider or monolith as a railcannon, and more so then lazcannons. the only thing it lacks is the AP 1 for extra damage, but thats a pretty rare feature on anything except melta.

lance spam ftw

They're only average strength and you can't spam them.

I've seen tournament lists with 28 lances. 28.

That's spam on the maximum degree.

No.

Your friends been beaten by a new army, and instead of resorting to expand on its weaknesses cries OP in order to escape his defeat.

Totalwar1402 wrote:They're only average strength and you can't spam them. That and I generally don't do very good with them from experience. I usually have to rely on massed haywire grenades since everything else is unreliable at taking down armour. I've had dreadnoughts wade through dark lance fire and the lance advantage is lost against the majority of cheap vehicles. Usually I take my ravagers with D cannons since they can paste the elite units my wyches can't; three dark lances just isn't that good for AT. Most of the players at my club don't (due to cost) do vehicle spam anyway. Usually its just a single monolith or Russ tucked away that stubbornly refuses to blow up no matter how much I pelt it with dark lance fire. Massively loading up on lances would soak up a huge number of points and I can only take three ravagers.

What do you mean they are only average strength? Because lance weapons lower AV13-14 to AV12, str8 is essentially equivalent to a str10 non lance weapon. As far as I know, there are no stronger lance weapons in the game than that. and other than not being able to IK T5 models theres really no downside of it compared to a S10 weapon.

DarthSpader wrote:i dont see why lances are so malinged. they do great on transports or light armor, and make tougher armors, not so much. ive had nothing but good reliable results from my lance weapons. and a lance is just as effective against a landraider or monolith as a railcannon, and more so then lazcannons. the only thing it lacks is the AP 1 for extra damage, but thats a pretty rare feature on anything except melta.

lance spam ftw

They are 25 points ( or 30/40 for craftworld Eldar ) krakmissiles most of the time. Monoliths and Landraiders are extremely rare vehicles and best dealth with trough melters.
Against anything else a lascannon or ( against transparts up to av12 ) autocannon is far superior. If lances would be adequately priced, perhaps at 15/20 points, then they would be regarded as adequate weapons. Atm they are are badly overcosted.

Chowderhead wrote:RE: lances
I've seen tournament lists with 28 lances. 28.

That's spam on the maximum degree.

How many of those were actually blasters? And at what points?

I'm trying to come up with 28 darklances (non-blaster, non blastpistol):

3 ravagers - 9
9 raiders - 9
3 units of scourges with 4 DL apiece: 12 - 31

It's doable, but rather high in points, especially when you add in the units that need to be riding those raiders..


3 ravagers: 9

6 troop units of kabalites - 6
in raiders - 6 -24 + other units.

other units to taste (scourges, Trueborn, whatever) - again, very spendy.



Give us another heavy weapon other than Splinter Cannon and you might see a bit more variety As we only have 2 (and disintegrators on vehicles) it's not surprising that you'd see a lot of them, especialy as they are the standard weapon on DE vehicles, to make up for the vehicles being made of soggy cardboard.



A counter question, though

How many Lascannons or meltaguns can one army field? I don't have my dexes on me, but i'm pretty sure it can top 28 with some armies

I know for a fact that Orks can field in excess of 60 rokkit launchas in a 2000 pt force

Jade.Longinus wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:They're only average strength and you can't spam them. That and I generally don't do very good with them from experience. I usually have to rely on massed haywire grenades since everything else is unreliable at taking down armour. I've had dreadnoughts wade through dark lance fire and the lance advantage is lost against the majority of cheap vehicles. Usually I take my ravagers with D cannons since they can paste the elite units my wyches can't; three dark lances just isn't that good for AT. Most of the players at my club don't (due to cost) do vehicle spam anyway. Usually its just a single monolith or Russ tucked away that stubbornly refuses to blow up no matter how much I pelt it with dark lance fire. Massively loading up on lances would soak up a huge number of points and I can only take three ravagers.

What do you mean they are only average strength? Because lance weapons lower AV13-14 to AV12, str8 is essentially equivalent to a str10 non lance weapon. As far as I know, there are no stronger lance weapons in the game than that. and other than not being able to IK T5 models theres really no downside of it compared to a S10 weapon.

You have a one in three chance of getting a penetrating hit. Glances can be pretty much be ignored and when you roll on the damage table you also only have a one in three chance of blowing up the tank. At best you'll stop them from firing but the odds of you blowing up a tank are fairly slim.Just speaking from personal experience even against tiny amounts of tanks/walkers. Thats pretty average; nothing spectacular and for the points you pay not really worth it.

I could spam them, but it would cost me severely in terms of other parts of my army, CC wych squads in raiders, ordinance weaponry, disintegrator cannon ravagers and splinter cannon units in venoms. By the time you have a trueborn squad, give them two lances and blasters in a venom you really do fill up on points for a niche unit.

Typically I have about six to seven lances in a 1000pts force. Probably the same really for 1500pts. Usually four raiders with DL, then either a ravager or my razorwing.

The only proper response to any of those thread is:
"Of course they are. Every codex, (except the one *I* am playing) is imbalanced and overpowered."

Jade.Longinus wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:They're only average strength and you can't spam them. That and I generally don't do very good with them from experience. I usually have to rely on massed haywire grenades since everything else is unreliable at taking down armour. I've had dreadnoughts wade through dark lance fire and the lance advantage is lost against the majority of cheap vehicles. Usually I take my ravagers with D cannons since they can paste the elite units my wyches can't; three dark lances just isn't that good for AT. Most of the players at my club don't (due to cost) do vehicle spam anyway. Usually its just a single monolith or Russ tucked away that stubbornly refuses to blow up no matter how much I pelt it with dark lance fire. Massively loading up on lances would soak up a huge number of points and I can only take three ravagers.

What do you mean they are only average strength? Because lance weapons lower AV13-14 to AV12, str8 is essentially equivalent to a str10 non lance weapon. As far as I know, there are no stronger lance weapons in the game than that. and other than not being able to IK T5 models theres really no downside of it compared to a S10 weapon.

I'm being a bit of a dick here but i will point out that the tyranid zoenthrope has a s10 ap1 lance weapon

Shas, he did say as far as he knew

Picky sod

hence why i pointed out i was being a dick lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just want to see everyone be as knowledgeable as possible however

lmao.

Meh I'm getting old and newer Codices are getting a bit pants imo

agreed, although i imagine my opinion will change with the release of the new tau codex.

anyway, back on topic, no i do not believe DE are OP but i have yet to actually play against them. they do seem like one of the more well fleshed out codecies to date.

but thats just from skimming them over

Shas'O'Siepher wrote:agreed, although i imagine my opinion will change with the release of the new tau codex.

anyway, back on topic, no i do not believe DE are OP but i have yet to actually play against them. they do seem like one of the more well fleshed out codecies to date.

but thats just from skimming them over

In comparison to other Codices that have been released, they are totally balanced imo. They have been thought out from beginning to end, probably due largely to their last Codex being released in '97/98(ish). They really are made of glass, and if you mess up Deployment/Shooting/Assault at any crucial moment (and lets face it, every moment is crucial in a DE army) you will have your posterior handed to you and guilded to boot. I honestly have no idea why people complain about them so much tbh. Sure I'm a DE player, but equally I play Iron Warriors and Tyranids, but I've been playing this game many years so (usually) my tactics are sound.

The way I see it is, that the people who tend to hate the DE army (this is not exclusive to them, but from experience is what I've seen) are the one's who are beaten on turn 2. it happens. but that doesnt mean DE are broken, it just means that many circumstances have brought about a swift resolution to the game.

If S8 AP2 is such a bad weapon, why do they show up in every marine list every assembled? Only there they are AP3 not AP2.

The S8 can bust tanks just fine or (and you have to play with this mindset) any tank not shooting at my cardboard thin armor and guys next turn is a good thing.

Your not going to kill everything in one turn, but with good long ranged firepower, I can make it so that 3/4 of your tanks are not killing anything of mine on turn 2, 3, 4 etc. This helps keep our vehicles flying so that they can do what they need to do and hurt what ever squishy bits do show up on the battlefield.

I'm not sure how many DE lists are actually capable of tabling an opponent. But I've come to realize that most can cripple an opponents army in such a way as to make it impossible to loose if general plays the mission and not just the need to kill everything.

Jayden63 wrote:If S8 AP2 is such a bad weapon, why do they show up in every marine list every assembled? Only there they are AP3 not AP2.

The S8 can bust tanks just fine or (and you have to play with this mindset) any tank not shooting at my cardboard thin armor and guys next turn is a good thing.

Your not going to kill everything in one turn, but with good long ranged firepower, I can make it so that 3/4 of your tanks are not killing anything of mine on turn 2, 3, 4 etc. This helps keep our vehicles flying so that they can do what they need to do and hurt what ever squishy bits do show up on the battlefield.

I'm not sure how many DE lists are actually capable of tabling an opponent. But I've come to realize that most can cripple an opponents army in such a way as to make it impossible to loose if general plays the mission and not just the need to kill everything.

Well ML are cheaper and you can take dedicated squads of them which also lowers the price. As it stands you have to buy expensive trueborn squads, or big blobs of warriors, or very expensive scourges to get the lances. You can get them on raiders cheaply but I find D cannons much better at killing the elite infantry that my wyches simply can't deal with. You're also limited to three of them.

True, they might prevent shooting but armies (necrons and chaos) can ignore shaken and stunned results quite easily. Also, it might just be my bad luck, but I just don't kill tanks with them period. At most I only face three or four tanks with most only having two in a 1000pts list. I really don't believe I should have to spend 2/3 of my points on anti-tank units to deal with a fairly low count of armour. Pretty much can go whole games witohut blowing up tanks even if the rest of the enemies army gets pasted. For example I fought 1500pts ork amry, mainly infantry with a battlewagon, def dread and warboss. End of game battlewagon is still standing despite taking everything my armies anti-tank could throw at it; inclusing haywire grenades (which is what knocked out the def dread). That was a very lucky battle on my part but my anti-tank did incredibly poorly. ie I could not blow up or incapacitate two vehicles over seven turns. Thats pretty typical of how it goes for me against tanks; regardless of whether I kill everything else or not.

That just sounds like bad luck on your part.

I've heard and it seems to be true that one dark light weapon for every 100 points is pretty much all the AT that a DE list needs and at that ratio, there is still tons of points left over for the anti-infantry.

S8 lance means you will never need a 5+ or greater to get at least a roll on the damage charts. By the numbers every 3 darklight weapons that you shoot get you a chance to roll on the damage chart against anything in the game. In my 1500 point list, thats five vehicles a turn. Not too shabby.