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Arrathon wrote:I cannot choose which one. I always run the Crusader patter w/ a multi melta. Playing grey knights i am going to have a land raider in my newest list, and i cannot deiced if for my newest list maybe a Redeemer with Psyflame wouldn't be to bad? A Str 7 ap 3 weapon isn't to bad i feel, i understand i couldn't shoot everything if i moved 12 or even 6. I am going to be sticking 6-8 termies in whatever land raider i choose (termies do take up 2 spots ina landraider right?). So help me out dakka.. Crusader or Redeemer.

Its really a matter of prefernce.

If you do a search in these forums you will see many threads where this question has been beaten to death.

Scipio Africanus wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Zid wrote:Crusader. But don't buy psybolt ammo for it as you want the sponsons to stay defensive weapons

That's the sophomoric answer. It's true that the hurricane bolters no longer become defensive, but more to the point, the assault cannon is the main weapon. A LRC can fire one weapon and move 12", which is what you're going to be doing 80% of the time, and 90% it's going to be the assault cannon (psycannon), It's much more important to have that be Str 7 than be able to also fire the hurricane bolters the few times you move 6".

Like I said, it's important to realize the sponson weapons in either variant are really "bonus weapons". You're not going to fire them most of the time, often only once you've already done your main charge.

I'd just like the mention first off that I feel it is a tad rude to refer to him as sophomoric, I believe his response was a reasonable comment to make. In future, it may be worth thinking of a less aggressive word to describe the response, given that his answer, to him makes a lot of sense.

Maybe you think Sophomoric is a more insulting term than I think it is. I mean, in my opinion, both of you are really rather drastically wrong, so any adjective I used to describe it is likely to be at least a little insulting, isn't it?

I do not agree with this statement, either. You assume the way the OP is running his LR and you make far too much of a personal comment on YOUR playstyle to actually produce useful information for HIM. You have to remember that there are more than one way of running things. I myself run my storm ravens differently for different situations and although I don't often slow down (unless I'm fighting a swarm, in which case first turn I shoot 8~12 pie plates at 'em

All this said, I respect what you're saying and I accept it, but I do not agree with it. If he is running Purifiers, the way I see it he has three ways of running them:

Defensively: 4x psycannons a squad, sitting back and shooting. in which case neither of the LR variants are good for him.
Aggressively: You'd be right. He'd be assaulting turn three and therefore wouldn't have time to waste shooting S4AP5. He would charge in as soon as possible, so Psibolt ammo is a good thing.
Balanced: Would require more thought. At times, Defensive play is necessary, so it may not be a good thing.

Also, I use my Redeemers side cannons to as good an effect as I can. within 3rd turn I use them more than an assault cannon

No, I'm sorry. Redeemers and Crusaders are for delivering the troops to the enemy, Full Stop.

That doesn't necessarily mean you're charging ahead 12" recklessly, but it certainly often does.

If you want to hang back defensively or play a waiting game, get the one with the lascannons.




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sudojoe wrote:I still agree with keeping the hurricane bolters defensive as you will already shoot the assault cannon AND your multimelta with the PTOMS. You are bringing the multi-melta are you not? In a codex with not that many melta weapons, I almost always do.

Sure, but the times I'm willing to move 6" in order to fire both are pretty rare. Besides, if you're looking for vehicle killing, most times the Str7 psycannon is better than the MM and at longer range. (exceptions being things like other LRs) At Str 6 it falls considerably behind the MM.

Fact is you're just not going to be using the Hurricane bolters nearly as much as the Psycannon. And when you do, (such as when you've already charged) why not stay still and fire str 5 bolters instead?

Sure, but the times I'm willing to move 6" in order to fire both are pretty rare

then by this same logic, might you then agree that it'd be better off taking the redeemer then? It'd still be cheaper and you can shoot things that will ignore cover and is AP3 which is pretty damn useful especially if you are trying to dig out things like dark eldar in cover with FNP (ignores your 5str bolters but will die to str 6 flamer). You can take the psybolts and it its still cheaper than a crusader.

Melta even at range are still AP1 weapons. You may not get your 2d6 pen but you do get to add one to your results. Also good for getting through FNP (but so does rending I suppose so it's a trade off). I feel that most of my armor pen needs at range are usually satisfied by the 4 str 8 shots my auto dreads are pumping out. The melta fills a different tactical role than light transport popping duty in my army at least. I can't speak for yours however so we both may be correct in our own ways.

Well, I use a Redeemer and mainly use it to tank shock then scorch enemy units, the Crusader is just 250 points of bolters and an assault cannon.

sudojoe wrote:

Sure, but the times I'm willing to move 6" in order to fire both are pretty rare

then by this same logic, might you then agree that it'd be better off taking the redeemer then? It'd still be cheaper and you can shoot things that will ignore cover and is AP3 which is pretty damn useful especially if you are trying to dig out things like dark eldar in cover with FNP (ignores your 5str bolters but will die to str 6 flamer). You can take the psybolts and it its still cheaper than a crusader.

Melta even at range are still AP1 weapons. You may not get your 2d6 pen but you do get to add one to your results. Also good for getting through FNP (but so does rending I suppose so it's a trade off). I feel that most of my armor pen needs at range are usually satisfied by the 4 str 8 shots my auto dreads are pumping out. The melta fills a different tactical role than light transport popping duty in my army at least. I can't speak for yours however so we both may be correct in our own ways.

Yes, I think Redeemers are usually better, and said so earlier, unless you need to transport more than 6 terminators or 12 norms for some reason. That said, when I run 2 LRs I usually run one of each, only because I like variety.

You're a little mistaken about the Melta. In almost all anti-vehicle situations a regular assault cannon is better than the MM outside it's melta range, statistically. Upgrading it to Str only makes it even better, obviously.

The only anti-infantry situation where I can see the melta being better is trying to double out a SM character of some sort that was out on his own, in the open. That's a astonishingly rare situation, and even then....I might choose the assault cannon.

Redeemer is better than Crusader for a simple reason: 6 more bolters aren't going to change the game for you even if you fire them 2-3 times. It's harder to do, but firing the flamestorm once WILL change the game when it quotes entire squad off the board and the LR's squad assaults a second one.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:You're a little mistaken about the Melta. In almost all anti-vehicle situations a regular assault cannon is better than the MM outside it's melta range, statistically. Upgrading it to Str only makes it even better, obviously

These are the values at a range of over 12" for a MM to effect a target.
MM AV 10 : 23.87%
MM AV 11 : 18.76%
MM AV 12 : 12.88%
MM AV 13 : 7.30%
MM AV 14 : 1.92%

These are the results from a TL psy-assault cannon.
AC AV 10 : 47.51%
AC AV 11 : 34.02%
AC AV 12 : 18.47%
AC AV 13 : 14.06%
AC AV 14 : 12.59%

The TL STR 7 assault cannon is quite arguably one of the best weapons in the game.

labmouse42 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:You're a little mistaken about the Melta. In almost all anti-vehicle situations a regular assault cannon is better than the MM outside it's melta range, statistically. Upgrading it to Str only makes it even better, obviously

These are the values at a range of over 12" for a MM to effect a target.
MM AV 10 : 23.87%
MM AV 11 : 18.76%
MM AV 12 : 12.88%
MM AV 13 : 7.30%
MM AV 14 : 1.92%

These are the results from a TL psy-assault cannon.
AC AV 10 : 47.51%
AC AV 11 : 34.02%
AC AV 12 : 18.47%
AC AV 13 : 14.06%
AC AV 14 : 12.59%

The TL STR 7 assault cannon is quite arguably one of the best weapons in the game.

YES.

It's one of those things, the better you are at math, the better psycannons look. Keep in mind, assault cannons were better too, making them str 7 was........abundantly unnecessary.

Unit1126PLL wrote:No love for the Phobos pattern?

Phobos pattern? I'm assuming the "standard" (if land raiders can be "standard") raider is what your talking about. I usually run it with a Tac squad inside, purely because they can still capture objectives when inside. if a contesting unit approaches (chaos raider, gretchin, scarabs, squats etc) charge out of the raider. the lascannons are essential for blasting tanks, something the other variants cannot do. yet another consideration is the forge world achilles, if your opponent lets you use stuff from Imperial Armour. even the 6 man storage capacity isn't too big and issue, as you can fit a 5 man unit such as a purifier unit with a character in power armour, or a captain with command squad and the like and still have enough firepower to carry the day. i mean, everyone wants an AV 14 thunderfire cannon with sponson meltas, right?


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GreatGunz wrote:No. None.

awwww.... Khorne no like phobos pattern?


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optimusprime14 wrote:

sudojoe wrote:Best record is that drove up to some long fangs, turned tank side ways to screen the dismounting infantry from the rest of the enemy forces, had guys get out the side., open up with storm bolters/psycannons that mostly bounced off armor, but the flamestorm burned everything to death with AP3 and ignore cover. The guys got back in the tank next turn and so forth. The AV14 box blocked LOS to the models so they didn't get much counter fire either.

Huh? Is this some magical Grey Space Wolf Knight list I don't know about? Psycannons and Long fangs?

OT I prefer the Crusader, just for the additional carrying capacity

I think that the long fangs are the ENEMY. storm bolter shots bouncing of the 'fangs power armour


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AnomanderRake wrote:Redeemer is superior in terms of firepower, the point of the Crusader is the ability to fit eight Terminators or fifteen Black Templars in it. Which one you want depends on what you want to do with it; if you've got an absurdly large Terminator squad, go ahead and run a Crusader, but remember that you've just painted "go ahead - 600+ points in one vehicle, blow me up" on it's side. Practically speaking, since you're almost never going to want to put 1/2 your list in one target, you probably want to stick with smaller squads in a Redeemer, though.

Out of all the many Land Raider variants, though, I still say the Ares is the coolest.

Yes!!!! ares are absolutely EPIC!!! demolisher cannon works a treat, every time. a vindicator with AV14!


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Sir_Prometheus wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Redeemer is superior in terms of firepower, the point of the Crusader is the ability to fit eight Terminators or fifteen Black Templars in it. Which one you want depends on what you want to do with it; if you've got an absurdly large Terminator squad, go ahead and run a Crusader, but remember that you've just painted "go ahead - 600+ points in one vehicle, blow me up" on it's side. Practically speaking, since you're almost never going to want to put 1/2 your list in one target, you probably want to stick with smaller squads in a Redeemer, though.

Out of all the many Land Raider variants, though, I still say the Ares is the coolest.

Well, of course, if it's Draigo and 8 paladins, they can blow it up and....it's still Draigo and 8 paladins. You're pretty screwed.

The opponent, I meant.

Why does everyone use draigo? belial and deathwing are cheaper, and more versatile! besides, grey knights dont stand a chance when struck by mindstrike missiles


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labmouse42 wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:You're a little mistaken about the Melta. In almost all anti-vehicle situations a regular assault cannon is better than the MM outside it's melta range, statistically. Upgrading it to Str only makes it even better, obviously

These are the values at a range of over 12" for a MM to effect a target.
MM AV 10 : 23.87%
MM AV 11 : 18.76%
MM AV 12 : 12.88%
MM AV 13 : 7.30%
MM AV 14 : 1.92%

These are the results from a TL psy-assault cannon.
AC AV 10 : 47.51%
AC AV 11 : 34.02%
AC AV 12 : 18.47%
AC AV 13 : 14.06%
AC AV 14 : 12.59%

The TL STR 7 assault cannon is quite arguably one of the best weapons in the game.

isnt a psycannon exactly the same?

I prefer the Redeemer, But thats because Im a sane pyromainiac.

They exist right?

If your using the LR as an assault transport what does it matter if you cant fire your sponson weps if you move 12''?
Besides if you take the redeemer its 10pts cheaper (the same cost as the MM) than the Crusader so you get a Redeemer with a MM for the same cost as a Crusader.

No contest IMHO, the Redeemer is better.

That said YMMV.

A psycannon can move and fire 2 shots, unless mounted on a vehicle or relentless

A psycannon is not twin linked. That actually makes a big difference in effect

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
No, I'm sorry. Redeemers and Crusaders are for delivering the troops to the enemy, Full Stop.

Look, personally I agree with this statement. That said, you are not at liberty to define the uses of anything in the game.

The point I was making is not that you blatantly are wrong, it is that you are in the wrong to make assumptions about how the other player plays the game. You also, do not ever have the right to call someone on this forum a child. (if we have the same definition of Sophomoric, you'd see it means acting in a juvenile way. If you are using it with a different interpretation, feel free to inform me.)

Redeemers can have a place outside of troop delivery. Once those troops are delivered, it doesn't suddenly become a useless hunk of metal - it can go and shoot other things and it can be a unit onto itself. You are correct in saying that its most effective role is as a parcel service, but you do not have the liberty to define the tools purpose for someone else.

That is what I meant.