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I cannot choose which one. I always run the Crusader patter w/ a multi melta. Playing grey knights i am going to have a land raider in my newest list, and i cannot deiced if for my newest list maybe a Redeemer with Psyflame wouldn't be to bad? A Str 7 ap 3 weapon isn't to bad i feel, i understand i couldn't shoot everything if i moved 12 or even 6. I am going to be sticking 6-8 termies in whatever land raider i choose (termies do take up 2 spots ina landraider right?). So help me out dakka.. Crusader or Redeemer.

I personally have never found the Redeemer to be all that great if its the only LR in the list. The flamestorms are scary, but your opponent will have at least two turns of shooting at it before those cannons get to do anything. It makes a good secondary LR or you can take two.

For myself, the Crusader has always been gold. Because the hurricanes are a defensive weapon and have a 24" range to compliment the assault cannon and multi-melta it just seems like its putting out more firepower from the get go.

against horde armies, the flamestorm are awesome. Vs MEQ though, as said the opponent gets to shot the gak out of it b4 the flamestorm are un range.

Crusader. Every time. if the opponent spreds out effectively you'll be getting 2-4 maximum. At least with the crusader all weapons are capable of firing at 24"

I like the Crusader more, it's more flexible and can carry more guys.

While I do like the flamestorm cannon, you're only gonna get one or two shots a game period. And the flamestorms are most likely going to be shooting at the unit your guys are charging anyway...

Tough question. They're both good. I think you have to look at your purpose in fielding this thing. If it's to transport terminators, go with the crusader. If it's to use as a battle tank, I think the redeemer is alot stronger than the crusader. In my experience, if I can get two solid hits in with the redeemer cannon, I'm probably going to win the game, because it's so devastating. They usually have to pick up the whole squad, atleast vs. MEQs. On the other hand there aren't a whole lot of problems that you can't solve with 8 charging terminators. Charging directly into the enemy will probably get you atleast 1 full squad, quite possibly 2 if you can multi charge.

So just to wrap up I think you need to ask what's more important to you: shooting the raider's guns or delivering the terminators. How you answer that question will determine which raider you take.

No love for the Phobos pattern?

No. None.

It's kind of a rough call for me. I've noticed that generally I go all out 12' for the LR in the first turns and it won't matter what weapons I had around. The flame storm cannons make it a better fire magnet and face it, I'd rather people try to kill AV14 than my just as deadly AV 12's/11's that are racing for the enemy as well (or my dreads in the back)

The remaining turns sees my bolters shoot some stuff but the redeemer is cheaper and you can put psybolts on it (still cheaper than the crusader)
Occassionally the bolters do some good vs horde but many a times I've held fire just to make sure of assault range. More distant targets more often than not are in cover or we're looking at some armor. Vs things like scarabs, or turboboosting farseers/bikers, or even have the chance to burn light tanks like AV11-12 that popped smoke is also a good asset. (I also burned down some land speeders that were hoping to contest with cover saves from flat out)

It kind of depends on my list but I've been messing with the redeemer more and I kind of like it for the above reasons. It does take some more finess out of it to work better but it's definately got its moments. (also nice fact is that I can turn my tank to the side alot of times and be fairly effective at screening the backfield but not really messing up my shooting since I'm more limited anyway.

Best record is that drove up to some long fangs, turned tank side ways to screen the dismounting infantry from the rest of the enemy forces, had guys get out the side., open up with storm bolters/psycannons that mostly bounced off armor, but the flamestorm burned everything to death with AP3 and ignore cover. The guys got back in the tank next turn and so forth. The AV14 box blocked LOS to the models so they didn't get much counter fire either.

Redeemer with psybolt (and maybe a muilti melta), no psyflame.

sudojoe wrote:Best record is that drove up to some long fangs, turned tank side ways to screen the dismounting infantry from the rest of the enemy forces, had guys get out the side., open up with storm bolters/psycannons that mostly bounced off armor, but the flamestorm burned everything to death with AP3 and ignore cover. The guys got back in the tank next turn and so forth. The AV14 box blocked LOS to the models so they didn't get much counter fire either.

Huh? Is this some magical Grey Space Wolf Knight list I don't know about? Psycannons and Long fangs?

OT I prefer the Crusader, just for the additional carrying capacity

Unit1126PLL wrote:No love for the Phobos pattern?

I like it, it brings nice anti-transport (I know it's not much, but it is something it has a leg up on its younger brethen) and once I drop off the payload, it just becomes a taxi.

Best thing I did with it was, in a KP game, drop off a Reclusiarch and DC and picked up the lone survivor in a Tac squad that just got bladestormed. And that death star got charged by Banshees and Jain Zar. And the Reclusiarch bashed Jain Zar in da face!

Sorry, that last bit wasn't important. It was lulzy as hell though.

optimusprime14 wrote:

sudojoe wrote:Best record is that drove up to some long fangs, turned tank side ways to screen the dismounting infantry from the rest of the enemy forces, had guys get out the side., open up with storm bolters/psycannons that mostly bounced off armor, but the flamestorm burned everything to death with AP3 and ignore cover. The guys got back in the tank next turn and so forth. The AV14 box blocked LOS to the models so they didn't get much counter fire either.

Huh? Is this some magical Grey Space Wolf Knight list I don't know about? Psycannons and Long fangs?

OT I prefer the Crusader, just for the additional carrying capacity

He meant he roasted the LF.

GreatGunz wrote:So just to wrap up I think you need to ask what's more important to you: shooting the raider's guns or delivering the terminators. How you answer that question will determine which raider you take.

That is the best way I've ever heard ANYONE frame the question...

I myself prefer the redeemer because of the extreme awesomeness of its sponson weapons. I've always found that the hurricane bolters simply don't spit out as much death as the flamestorm cannons. This may be because I'm used to facing lots of marine armies (Who isn't these days!) and AP3 does the job well. Having the redeemer transport stuff, whilst moving 12" every turn, and still being able to fire with its assault cannon is, frankly, amazing.

I still maintain that the Phobos pattern is the best bang for your buck.

But the question:
"Do you focus more on the guns or on delivering terminators" is the key here.

Clearly I focus on the guns!

Thanks everyone for thier comments and ideas. I 100% of the time run a Crusader. I am getting ready to enter yet another tourney..and at 2500 points thought of putting ina Raider. I was looking at the wide array of armies i will be facing and thought maybe the redeemer would be a better fit to handle "all" types of armies.

OMG, never seen so much weird advice in one place.

First of all, the primary purpose of a LR, at least a Crusader or a redeemer, is to deliver warriors to your enemy.

Do you need to transport more than 12 MEQs or 6 terminators? Then you need a crusader. Otherwise, a redeemer usually does just fine, is 10 pts cheaper, and it's hilarious when you catch the MEQ squad with the flammers. Whoosh!

It is contrary to popular believe, usually pretty easy to avoid getting your LR melta'd, at least until after you charge, however, that requires planning.

It is important that in either option you look at the sponson weapons as "bonus weapons". Most games you will only fire them once, maybe not at all. Your mostly firing either the psycannon (assault cannon with psy ammo) or the MM as you move 12" per turn.


There is basically no reason to get psyflame ammo for the flamestorm cannons. These things are meant to kill MEQs (or scarabs, but that you're unlikely to catch) and you're wounding on 2+ regardless. You're not hunting rhinos with these (well, you can) and it's 15 pts for no good reason.


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apple1988218 wrote:Redeemer with psybolt (and maybe a muilti melta), no psyflame.

Yes!


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Unit1126PLL wrote:I still maintain that the Phobos pattern is the best bang for your buck.

But the question:
"Do you focus more on the guns or on delivering terminators" is the key here.

Clearly I focus on the guns!

Yes, the Crusader and Redeemer are very similar in application, but the phobos might as well be a different vehicle altogether.


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Serder wrote:against horde armies, the flamestorm are awesome. Vs MEQ though, as said the opponent gets to shot the gak out of it b4 the flamestorm are un range.

Once again, it's a bonus weapon, it's really for targets of opportunity. Usually something other than what you charge. Remember, even if you only get 4 marines under the template.......that's pretty much still 4 dead marines!

Redeemer is superior in terms of firepower, the point of the Crusader is the ability to fit eight Terminators or fifteen Black Templars in it. Which one you want depends on what you want to do with it; if you've got an absurdly large Terminator squad, go ahead and run a Crusader, but remember that you've just painted "go ahead - 600+ points in one vehicle, blow me up" on it's side. Practically speaking, since you're almost never going to want to put 1/2 your list in one target, you probably want to stick with smaller squads in a Redeemer, though.

Out of all the many Land Raider variants, though, I still say the Ares is the coolest.

AnomanderRake wrote:Redeemer is superior in terms of firepower, the point of the Crusader is the ability to fit eight Terminators or fifteen Black Templars in it. Which one you want depends on what you want to do with it; if you've got an absurdly large Terminator squad, go ahead and run a Crusader, but remember that you've just painted "go ahead - 600+ points in one vehicle, blow me up" on it's side. Practically speaking, since you're almost never going to want to put 1/2 your list in one target, you probably want to stick with smaller squads in a Redeemer, though.

Out of all the many Land Raider variants, though, I still say the Ares is the coolest.

Well, of course, if it's Draigo and 8 paladins, they can blow it up and....it's still Draigo and 8 paladins. You're pretty screwed.

The opponent, I meant.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Redeemer is superior in terms of firepower, the point of the Crusader is the ability to fit eight Terminators or fifteen Black Templars in it. Which one you want depends on what you want to do with it; if you've got an absurdly large Terminator squad, go ahead and run a Crusader, but remember that you've just painted "go ahead - 600+ points in one vehicle, blow me up" on it's side. Practically speaking, since you're almost never going to want to put 1/2 your list in one target, you probably want to stick with smaller squads in a Redeemer, though.

Out of all the many Land Raider variants, though, I still say the Ares is the coolest.

Well, of course, if it's Draigo and 8 paladins, they can blow it up and....it's still Draigo and 8 paladins. You're pretty screwed.

The opponent, I meant.

Yeah but you know... "8" is not a good number for paladins, since you can still only give them 2 psycannons ...
BTW I like your blog

I apologise for thread jacking slightly, but this is the same basic topic I needed help with but from a BA perspective.

Does Dakka think the same for BA LRs, or does the fact they can deepstrike colour things slightly?

My personal thinking is a Redeemer DSing makes the flamestorm cannons more viable, as you don't have to close across the table, and could make an amazing fire magnet, allowing the rest of the force to advance for a turn or two in relative safety.

I tend (rightly or wrongly, don't care!) to think of a LR as a gunboat first and a transport second.

Nope, not a gunboat.

Never even heard of anyone DSing them. Sounds like a stupid idea. You usually can get a turn 2 charge, anyway.

I DSed my LRC once. Worked very well. But it was my scariest 40k moment ever!!!

Damn thing is just too big to be dsed in anything with less terrain than a completely clear table.

Crusader. But don't buy psybolt ammo for it as you want the sponsons to stay defensive weapons

Hey there.

What I find in my personal GK army, is that I lack marine-killing power. I can deal with swarms and tanks and I'm okay against marines (better in combat of course.) but I truly do struggle against that Sv 3+.

While I don't personally run them, I can see exactly where the Redeemer's flamestorm cannon would come in handy! On this basis, I suggest you use the redeemer.

Oh, and even if this doesn't work, your LR choice is not set in stone.

By not gluing the two sides of the LR's guns together, you can remove them at will. (in the flamestorm cannon, when the fuel barrels connect to the actual gun there is a little tag so that the ammo fits in snugly with the gun, cut this off and you're good to go!)

I don't ever glue any weapons down that can be swapped out on the same frame. I think i am going to go with the Redeemer/psybolt ammo on it. After play testing here at home and simply just rolling dice to crunch numbers, i think it will be better to handle almost all types of the armies i will be facing..plus..it fits my "cleansing flame" theme i have going with my puifiers. Thanks for the massive amount of help folks.

Zid wrote:Crusader. But don't buy psybolt ammo for it as you want the sponsons to stay defensive weapons

That's the sophomoric answer. It's true that the hurricane bolters no longer become defensive, but more to the point, the assault cannon is the main weapon. A LRC can fire one weapon and move 12", which is what you're going to be doing 80% of the time, and 90% it's going to be the assault cannon (psycannon), It's much more important to have that be Str 7 than be able to also fire the hurricane bolters the few times you move 6".

Like I said, it's important to realize the sponson weapons in either variant are really "bonus weapons". You're not going to fire them most of the time, often only once you've already done your main charge.


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Arrathon wrote:I don't ever glue any weapons down that can be swapped out on the same frame. I think i am going to go with the Redeemer/psybolt ammo on it. After play testing here at home and simply just rolling dice to crunch numbers, i think it will be better to handle almost all types of the armies i will be facing..plus..it fits my "cleansing flame" theme i have going with my puifiers. Thanks for the massive amount of help folks.

Glad we could help. I think that's the best combination, at least unless you have an usually large unit to transport.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Zid wrote:Crusader. But don't buy psybolt ammo for it as you want the sponsons to stay defensive weapons

That's the sophomoric answer. It's true that the hurricane bolters no longer become defensive, but more to the point, the assault cannon is the main weapon. A LRC can fire one weapon and move 12", which is what you're going to be doing 80% of the time, and 90% it's going to be the assault cannon (psycannon), It's much more important to have that be Str 7 than be able to also fire the hurricane bolters the few times you move 6".

Like I said, it's important to realize the sponson weapons in either variant are really "bonus weapons". You're not going to fire them most of the time, often only once you've already done your main charge.

I'd just like the mention first off that I feel it is a tad rude to refer to him as sophomoric, I believe his response was a reasonable comment to make. In future, it may be worth thinking of a less aggressive word to describe the response, given that his answer, to him makes a lot of sense.

I do not agree with this statement, either. You assume the way the OP is running his LR and you make far too much of a personal comment on YOUR playstyle to actually produce useful information for HIM. You have to remember that there are more than one way of running things. I myself run my storm ravens differently for different situations and although I don't often slow down (unless I'm fighting a swarm, in which case first turn I shoot 8~12 pie plates at 'em

All this said, I respect what you're saying and I accept it, but I do not agree with it. If he is running Purifiers, the way I see it he has three ways of running them:

Defensively: 4x psycannons a squad, sitting back and shooting. in which case neither of the LR variants are good for him.
Aggressively: You'd be right. He'd be assaulting turn three and therefore wouldn't have time to waste shooting S4AP5. He would charge in as soon as possible, so Psibolt ammo is a good thing.
Balanced: Would require more thought. At times, Defensive play is necessary, so it may not be a good thing.

Also, I use my Redeemers side cannons to as good an effect as I can. within 3rd turn I use them more than an assault cannon

I still agree with keeping the hurricane bolters defensive as you will already shoot the assault cannon AND your multimelta with the PTOMS. You are bringing the multi-melta are you not? In a codex with not that many melta weapons, I almost always do.

AGAIN:
Redeemer with psybolt (and maybe a muilti melta), no psyflame. Always move 12" forward(and shoot the psycannon or MM) until the unit inside LRR get into close combat.

Landraider Crusader for one simple reason... Hurricane bolters count as defensive weapons.

sudojoe wrote:I still agree with keeping the hurricane bolters defensive as you will already shoot the assault cannon AND your multimelta with the PTOMS. You are bringing the multi-melta are you not? In a codex with not that many melta weapons, I almost always do.

^ This IMO is the correct answer.