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TheCustomLime wrote:Thank you all for the responses. My only impression of the Imperial Navy came from the Space Marine video game, where the opening shot was of naval ships in ruins. I think they were transport ships IIRC. And I'd like to thank the Lord of Decay especially for taking the time to answer this mortal's question.

Well from what I remember of those opening shots, that wasn't an Imperial Navy fleet getting shot to bits. It was system defense vessels, which are really just designed to police the space lanes and deal with low-key pirates. Anything resembling a true warship (even frigates and destroyers) will have no problem dealing with them.

DarknessEternal wrote:Not much can stand up to Nova Cannons. Although, but "not much", I guess I mean "absolutely nothing".

To be far, not much would be stupid enough to let themselves get hit by one.

Brother Coa wrote:@DrimGark your post win this thread.

You just forgotten to mention the firepower Imperial Navy ships posses, the medium class In ship is armed like Tau most advanced battleship.

The only problem IN has is territory it has to defend. One Imperial sector is 300 light years, that is a LOT of space to cover and defend, especially when stars can be really close by and that means a lot of planets to look over to.

Not quite. With the exception of true battleships, where the Tau still seem to lack behind a bit ( the Custodian is powerful but still not comparable to the largest imperial designs ) the Korr'vatra has more or less reached parity ( Of course they do not even get close to matching the sheer size of the Imperial navy, even if we factor in the rather considerable shipbuilding capabilities that the Tau species must possess in order to field a large fleet of Hero class ships in the Achilus crusade just a few years after they were invented ) with the Imperial Navy.

Another notable thing is how much the Tau Navy has improved itself. It has already come out with a new generation of ship designs in every class that are much more formidable than their previous ones, and this has reflected their experiences battling the Imperial Navy. While the IN is still using the same ship classes (and sometimes even the same ship) as 10,000 years ago, the Tau in only a few decades have come out with radically new designs. They will keep improving while the IN remains stagnant.

Harriticus wrote:Another notable thing is how much the Tau Navy has improved itself. It has already come out with a new generation of ship designs in every class that are much more formidable than their previous ones, and this has reflected their experiences battling the Imperial Navy. While the IN is still using the same ship classes (and sometimes even the same ship) as 10,000 years ago, the Tau in only a few decades have come out with radically new designs. They will keep improving while the IN remains stagnant.

Not quite true. The Dauntless Light Cruiser is a new class of ship (as per BL), and every form of cruiser in use today is a post-heresy design, or the Chaos forces would have their hands on them as well. The IN has mostly phased out ships that are Heresy Era (and even newer), with the remaining ones making up mothball fleets to be called up when the regular forces are to far out of system, or simply outgunned. The BFG book states that the Lunar Class Cruiser replaced the Murder Class Cruisers about 3,000 years before present time.

Space Marine vessels are mostly unchanged since that time frame, but I believe they were STC designs so there is little improvement that could be done on them anyways.

TrollPie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Not much can stand up to Nova Cannons. Although, but "not much", I guess I mean "absolutely nothing".

To be far, not much would be stupid enough to let themselves get hit by one.

Except not even eldar can dodge them.

TheCustomLime wrote:Thank you all for the responses. My only impression of the Imperial Navy came from the Space Marine video game, where the opening shot was of naval ships in ruins. I think they were transport ships IIRC. And I'd like to thank the Lord of Decay especially for taking the time to answer this mortal's question.

If I am not mistaken, the vast majority of the ships defending the planet were of a very light variety. Frigates, escorts, maybe the odd cruiser.
A large number of Ork ships are hyjacked imperial ships, some of the debris may have been of that nature.
I also assume a forge world suprised a by a large ork invasion fleet would only have a token anti-piracy fleet to protect it, they would be horribly outgunned and out-classed.
just my take on that

But yeah, that was likely more for atmosphere's sake, rather than fluff's

Squidmanlolz wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperial Navy can go toe to toe with anyone except the Necrons.

They normally get outmaneuvered by Eldars, though.

And Tau fighters.

Tau Fighters? Imperium has fighters of its own. Eldar ships have strong firepower but are made of tin foil.

DarknessEternal wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Not much can stand up to Nova Cannons. Although, but "not much", I guess I mean "absolutely nothing".

To be far, not much would be stupid enough to let themselves get hit by one.

Except not even eldar can dodge them.

That's not true. Eldar get holofield saves in BFG, so in a sense they do have a chance of dodging them.

BFG stats aren't canon. No tabletop stats are canon.

Anyway, while the Navy is most assuredly badass, they get curbstomped on a regular basis in the BL books, which is unfortunate. That probably has a lot to do with the atmosphere though, as people have already stated. As 99.99999% of BL novels are about infantry fights, it would be a short novel if the Navy kicked ass.

Iracundus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Not much can stand up to Nova Cannons. Although, but "not much", I guess I mean "absolutely nothing".

To be far, not much would be stupid enough to let themselves get hit by one.

Except not even eldar can dodge them.

That's not true. Eldar get holofield saves in BFG, so in a sense they do have a chance of dodging them.

They get a chance at dodging the Imperial's targeting array (and a rather bad one at that).

Once the Nova Cannon is locked onto a [correct] target, no one is going to be dodging it.

BlaxicanX wrote:BFG stats aren't canon. No tabletop stats are canon.

They most certainly are canon. It is what allows the claim that a Gothic can outshoot a Retribution class to be dismissed as nonsense or outrun a Hemlock to be dismissed as nonsense. The only data known regarding their relative firepower, speed, and other performance characteristics is from the BFG stats.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
They get a chance at dodging the Imperial's targeting array (and a rather bad one at that).

A 2+ save against a direct hit is hardly a bad chance. That is 83.33% chance of a miss.

There is frankly far too much misinformation and hyperbole floating around that could be answered simply by looking at what is or is not possible in BFG.

Yes, Eldar vessels are fragile and yes they are vulnerable to indirect blasts, such as from other nova cannon detonations, but trying to directly hit an Eldar ship with a nova cannon shell? More difficult than people are making it out to be.

Iracundus wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:BFG stats aren't canon. No tabletop stats are canon.

They most certainly are canon. It is what allows the claim that a Gothic can outshoot a Retribution class to be dismissed as nonsense or outrun a Hemlock to be dismissed as nonsense. The only data known regarding their relative firepower, speed, and other performance characteristics is from the BFG stats.

Agreed -

- and this is why the Adeptus Mechanicus have some of the (individually) most powerful warships in the galaxy. WOOT!

The imperial navy has arguably suffered the least from the technological regression. They have rail guns and lance weapons which they can no longer make on a small scale.

Surtur wrote:The imperial navy has arguably suffered the least from the technological regression. They have rail guns and lance weapons which they can no longer make on a small scale.

They have still suffered. Overall the Imperial Navy has been two steps back, 1 step forward when it comes to technology. Hence there is the situation that older ships, such as the ones Chaos has secured, are faster and have heavier weapon batteries than "modern" Imperial ships, which have compensated with the simple expedient of attaching slabs of armor in front to form the characteristic armored prows. When they do make advances, these are often re-discoveries such as the Tyrant class using super-fired plasma weapons which had previously been lost technology, or they are one-off ships using salvaged equipment from Chaos (i.e. old Imperial) ships.

Iracundus wrote:

Surtur wrote:The imperial navy has arguably suffered the least from the technological regression. They have rail guns and lance weapons which they can no longer make on a small scale.

They have still suffered. Overall the Imperial Navy has been two steps back, 1 step forward when it comes to technology. Hence there is the situation that older ships, such as the ones Chaos has secured, are faster and have heavier weapon batteries than "modern" Imperial ships, which have compensated with the simple expedient of attaching slabs of armor in front to form the characteristic armored prows. When they do make advances, these are often re-discoveries such as the Tyrant class using super-fired plasma weapons which had previously been lost technology, or they are one-off ships using salvaged equipment from Chaos (i.e. old Imperial) ships.

Such is the problem with the split between the Mechanicus and the Imperium.

Imagine entire Imperial battlefleets with the same warfighting equipment that the Arkhan Land-class dreadnought had. DOOM! DOOOOOOOM!

Iracundus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Not much can stand up to Nova Cannons. Although, but "not much", I guess I mean "absolutely nothing".

To be far, not much would be stupid enough to let themselves get hit by one.

Except not even eldar can dodge them.

That's not true. Eldar get holofield saves in BFG, so in a sense they do have a chance of dodging them.

Sort of. They get a 2+ save against the D6 damage. Then, no matter if they pass or fail, they take 1 damage from being in contact with a nova cannon template against which they receive no save unless they Brace for Impact.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Not much can stand up to Nova Cannons. Although, but "not much", I guess I mean "absolutely nothing".

To be far, not much would be stupid enough to let themselves get hit by one.

Except not even eldar can dodge them.

That's not true. Eldar get holofield saves in BFG, so in a sense they do have a chance of dodging them.

Sort of. They get a 2+ save against the D6 damage. Then, no matter if they pass or fail, they take 1 damage from being in contact with a nova cannon template against which they receive no save unless they Brace for Impact.

There is no "double dipping". A ship if hit by the center of the template takes D6, which is then saved or not. That's it. Otherwise you have the situation of Imperial or Chaos ships being hit for D6, and then taking a further additional 1 damage for being in contact with the template. This is not the case, and hence it isn't the case for Eldar ships either. It is D6 or 0, depending on whether the save is made or not.

Don't forget, though, that a holofield is not "dodge the bullet" save.

It is "confuse enemy targeting sensors with ghost echoes and fading sensor locks" save.

So once the round is in the air, it's already either a miss or a hit depending on whether or not the holofields fooled the Imperial sensors.

Even outside of BFG they are. In fact i would argue that they represent the technological pinacle of the imperial warmachine. Sure, some of the navy's ways might appear terribly outdated ( using manual labour to load their guns for example ) but other technologies, like their powerfull voidshields, plasma reactors and lance turrets, appear to be very advanced.

Apologies if this was picked up earlier but I believe this is explained in IA1, IIRC it's to do with the loss/degredation of technology and that the STC often are only part of the picture rather than a whole. E.g you find designs to build a huge Cannon and the specs for shells the size of a hab block but there is no instructions on how the loading mechanism works. Rather than alter the sacred STC instruction the mechanicum improvises, enter the 300 man slave team.

IA1 makes STC sound like the instuctions for most flat pack furniture i've bought, some of the bits just aren't there so you make do.

Iracundus wrote:
There is no "double dipping". A ship if hit by the center of the template takes D6, which is then saved or not. That's it. Otherwise you have the situation of Imperial or Chaos ships being hit for D6, and then taking a further additional 1 damage for being in contact with the template. This is not the case, and hence it isn't the case for Eldar ships either. It is D6 or 0, depending on whether the save is made or not.

You are not familiar with the current rules of BFG. Eldar ships take either 1+d6 or 1 damage from nova cannons. 0 isn't a possibility.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
There is no "double dipping". A ship if hit by the center of the template takes D6, which is then saved or not. That's it. Otherwise you have the situation of Imperial or Chaos ships being hit for D6, and then taking a further additional 1 damage for being in contact with the template. This is not the case, and hence it isn't the case for Eldar ships either. It is D6 or 0, depending on whether the save is made or not.

You are not familiar with the current rules of BFG. Eldar ships take either 1+d6 or 1 damage from nova cannons. 0 isn't a possibility.

Cite your sources
I am going by the BFG rulebook. The example in the Nova Cannon section shows ships taking D6 if under the hole, and 1 if under the template. There is no D6+1 anywhere. There is no mention of the ship under the hole in the rulebook taking D6 and then taking a subsequent 1.

I also cite the BFG FAQ 2010 ( https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bw_dULEfC3rbYjViNjI5YTgtOTFjMi00MWIyLTlkNzAtOTRlNGQ3YTUxZmM3/edit ) :

Holofield saves are taken against a direct hit from a Nova Cannon where the hole is over the base as well as against the single automatic hit for coming in base contact with the blast template. If this save is successful the effect of the Nova Cannon is negated, and a blast marker is placed normally for the save. Being braced saves against any damage taken normally. See p.24 for more on holofields.

Actually by that quote, even the blast damage is savable, presumably by the rationale that there is the possibility the shell missed by enough that even the blast area is not in the vicinity of the ship since the 2D table is a representation of 3D space.

No mention whatsoever in the Nova Cannon section OR the holofields about D6+1 or the 1 damage from the template being impossible to avert.

Iracundus wrote:
Cite your sources

Here they be

DarknessEternal wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Cite your sources

Here they be

That was a proposed idea on page 1. It isn't in the compendium. A considered idea on a forum thread is not official rule. Also, that considered idea dates from 2010, whereas the compendium was updated in late 2011 and does not include it.

djones520 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Another notable thing is how much the Tau Navy has improved itself. It has already come out with a new generation of ship designs in every class that are much more formidable than their previous ones, and this has reflected their experiences battling the Imperial Navy. While the IN is still using the same ship classes (and sometimes even the same ship) as 10,000 years ago, the Tau in only a few decades have come out with radically new designs. They will keep improving while the IN remains stagnant.

Not quite true. The Dauntless Light Cruiser is a new class of ship (as per BL), and every form of cruiser in use today is a post-heresy design, or the Chaos forces would have their hands on them as well. The IN has mostly phased out ships that are Heresy Era (and even newer), with the remaining ones making up mothball fleets to be called up when the regular forces are to far out of system, or simply outgunned. The BFG book states that the Lunar Class Cruiser replaced the Murder Class Cruisers about 3,000 years before present time.

Space Marine vessels are mostly unchanged since that time frame, but I believe they were STC designs so there is little improvement that could be done on them anyways.

Even so this is still problematic for the Imperium. Even if they're using the same ship designs from 3,000 years ago vs 10,000 years ago, the fact of the matter is 3,000 years is the entire recorded history of the Tau race. Imagine how more advanced they'll be in another 3,000 years when maybe the Imperium comes out with a new ship? Also, Imperial technology in all fields is gradually decaying whereas the Tau are rapidly improving. That's pretty much basic canon. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Imperial Warships of the Great Crusade were more formidable than those in 999.M41, and this decay will continue while the Tau continue to improve and adapt.

And all this stats/gameplay from BFG really isn't proving anything from a fluff perspective. Fluff and gameplay are two separate things.

You can have the greatest technology in the galaxy, and it will mean nothing if you don't have enough ammo to kill the enemy.

Randomonioum wrote:You can have the greatest technology in the galaxy, and it will mean nothing if you don't have enough ammo to kill the enemy.

Or for that matter, numbers. I'd say for every five Imperial vessels, the Tau lose one - by the time the Tau Navy is destroyed, you've only destroyed one-millionth of the Imperial Navy.