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Just a question. Is the Imperial Navy competent with good battleships or are they outmatched by everything ever? And, as a follow up question how good is their fighter craft?

Not sure about battleships, but the fighters usually perform satisfactory except against Eldar Interceptors and Tau Barracudas, where they lack maneuverability.

In the BL fluff the Imperial Navy is quite good actually. In contrast to the nonsense about the incompetent guard, they are powerful, competent, and effective against orks, chaos, and dark eldar.

IN BFG (game) imperial ships can go toe to toe with anyone but necrons, and no one can go toe to toe against them.

They have very good firepower, as even a small cruiser has an insane amount of firepower, but they sometimes struggle against more agile or faster ships.

the Navy is a Sledgehammer like the Guard.

Its firepower is unrelenting and can beat nigh anything to dust. but against faster opponents it can have difficulty but should a shot land on its agile opponents they often disintegrate.

The navy is regarded as one of the imperium's greatest strengths, in BFG their ships are good, in fluff they are extremely powerful. Think about it, in fluff battles, the imperium nearly always has space and air supremacy.

The Navy is one of the most powerful military forces of the Imperium. Their ships are huge and their attacks are devastating.

They can go with any fleet in the galaxy toe to toe ( even Necrons now as their fleet is weakened a lot ). ONly tiem I know that Navy lost battle/had great number of losses is when they were attacking Eldar Craftworld ( witch is a planet sized vessel with medium ones being the size of Terra ) and in Battle for Macragge ( where Tyranids destroyed large number of vessels ).

As with other Imperial forces, while the Imperium is technologically-advanced to most opponents, generally speaking, the Navy is technologically inferior to some opponents - Eldar, Tau, Necrons - regardless, it follows standard Imperial doctrine of overwhelming numbers and superior tactics to achieve victory. As much as I hate to admit it, the only race as warlike as the Orks are Humans; so tactics and numbers aren't problems for the Imperial war machine. In fact, only the Astartes and the Titans don't use overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, all other Imperials do.

EmilCrane wrote:The navy is regarded as one of the imperium's greatest strengths, in BFG their ships are good, in fluff they are extremely powerful. Think about it, in fluff battles, the imperium nearly always has space and air supremacy.

I've always noticed that in BL books they almost never have space supremacy. I'm sure this is just to increase dramatic tension though...

Lord Solar Awesome wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:The navy is regarded as one of the imperium's greatest strengths, in BFG their ships are good, in fluff they are extremely powerful. Think about it, in fluff battles, the imperium nearly always has space and air supremacy.

I've always noticed that in BL books they almost never have space supremacy. I'm sure this is just to increase dramatic tension though...

It is pretty much...

The Imperial Navy is organized into battlefleets, and the largest true operational unit is the sector battlefleet. However even then most of the time a sector's battlefleet is not assembled together but is spread across various patrols and docks. Thus an enemy can gain local superiority since they can pick and choose when and where to attack. However as seen in the BFG Gothic War, the Imperium can get reinforcements from other sectors and so overwhelm through firepower and numbers eventually.

Iracundus wrote:The Imperial Navy is organized into battlefleets, and the largest true operational unit is the sector battlefleet. However even then most of the time a sector's battlefleet is not assembled together but is spread across various patrols and docks. Thus an enemy can gain local superiority since they can pick and choose when and where to attack. However as seen in the BFG Gothic War, the Imperium can get reinforcements from other sectors and so overwhelm through firepower and numbers eventually.

Eventually because only the Orks and the Tyranids can engage the Imperium in a war of attrition...the Imperial Guard and Navy can throw stupidly HUGE numbers against the enemy; only an idiot would try to engage when outnumbered 10,000 to 1.

Tadashi wrote:As with other Imperial forces, while the Imperium is technologically-advanced to most opponents, generally speaking, the Navy is technologically inferior to some opponents - Eldar, Tau, Necrons - regardless, it follows standard Imperial doctrine of overwhelming numbers and superior tactics to achieve victory. As much as I hate to admit it, the only race as warlike as the Orks are Humans; so tactics and numbers aren't problems for the Imperial war machine. In fact, only the Astartes and the Titans don't use overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, all other Imperials do.

aren't the Tau unable to make ships even close to the size that the Imperium is capable of because they lack the technology to maintain hull integrity on such a grand scale?

Lotet wrote:

Tadashi wrote:As with other Imperial forces, while the Imperium is technologically-advanced to most opponents, generally speaking, the Navy is technologically inferior to some opponents - Eldar, Tau, Necrons - regardless, it follows standard Imperial doctrine of overwhelming numbers and superior tactics to achieve victory. As much as I hate to admit it, the only race as warlike as the Orks are Humans; so tactics and numbers aren't problems for the Imperial war machine. In fact, only the Astartes and the Titans don't use overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, all other Imperials do.

aren't the Tau unable to make ships even close to the size that the Imperium is capable of because they lack the technology to maintain hull integrity on such a grand scale?

Older ships like the Explorer-class and Emissary-class are refitted merchant ships, similar to WWII aircraft carriers. But the new ones, Custodian-class and Protector-class, are true warships, capable of going toe-to-toe with Imperial warships. Tau vessels usually outrange that of other factions, and can outrun even Eldar vessels, but they lack broadside firepower; the standard Imperial tactic in space is to charge in with full shields to point-blank range and unleash hell at broadsides - the Tau won't last long. Astartes (both loyalist and traitor) and Eldar also try to board; Tau are pathetic at melee, and this is even made worse in a starship's corridors. Also, while they can outfly Imperial and Eldar pilots, non-Tau pilots have one weakness: combat experience. In this, they are painfully taken advantage of by Imperial and other pilots.

Tadashi wrote:

Lotet wrote:

Tadashi wrote:As with other Imperial forces, while the Imperium is technologically-advanced to most opponents, generally speaking, the Navy is technologically inferior to some opponents - Eldar, Tau, Necrons - regardless, it follows standard Imperial doctrine of overwhelming numbers and superior tactics to achieve victory. As much as I hate to admit it, the only race as warlike as the Orks are Humans; so tactics and numbers aren't problems for the Imperial war machine. In fact, only the Astartes and the Titans don't use overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, all other Imperials do.

aren't the Tau unable to make ships even close to the size that the Imperium is capable of because they lack the technology to maintain hull integrity on such a grand scale?

Older ships like the Explorer-class and Emissary-class are refitted merchant ships, similar to WWII aircraft carriers. But the new ones, Custodian-class and Protector-class, are true warships, capable of going toe-to-toe with Imperial warships. Tau vessels usually outrange that of other factions, and can outrun even Eldar vessels, but they lack broadside firepower; the standard Imperial tactic in space is to charge in with full shields to point-blank range and unleash hell at broadsides - the Tau won't last long. Astartes (both loyalist and traitor) and Eldar also try to board; Tau are pathetic at melee, and this is even made worse in a starship's corridors. Also, while they can outfly Imperial and Eldar pilots, non-Tau pilots have one weakness: combat experience. In this, they are painfully taken advantage of by Imperial and other pilots.

I don't know where you are pulling some of this Tau stuff out of the air from because some of those things are simply not true, especially those claims against the Eldar.

Tau ships do NOT outrun Eldar vessels. The BFG resources on the GW website shows a speed maximum of 25cm per turn and only on a light escort, while the Forgeworld fleet list ships have a maximum of 20cm per turn. By contrast, the Eldar Void Stalker battleship has speeds of 20-50cm per turn depending on solar wind orientation, and it is already one of the slower Eldar ships. Eldar light cruisers do 30-60cm. This means Eldar ships can outrun and outgun Tau ships of similar class size.

Tau pilots do not out-perform Imperial or Eldar pilots. Yes it is noted that the Air caste is more naturally adept in low-G environments than humans, but the ultimate performance is on par with each other especially given the lack of Tau experience. Eldar small craft again completely, moving a 30cm per turn vs. a Tau Barracuda's 25cm, and with Eldar fighters having a 4+ save representing their greater endurance and maneuverability. A comparison of the BFG performance of Tau Barracudas to Imperial Furies also shows the Tau to be slower (25cm vs. 30cm) and otherwise equal in actual combat against each other. Of the 3 factions mentioned, in terms of space fighter combat, the Tau are the WORST.
The sources for this are
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350039a_BFG_Tau_Fleets.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350031a_BFG_Imperial_Fleets.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350043a_BFG_Xenos_Fleets.pdf

Iracundus wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Lotet wrote:

Tadashi wrote:As with other Imperial forces, while the Imperium is technologically-advanced to most opponents, generally speaking, the Navy is technologically inferior to some opponents - Eldar, Tau, Necrons - regardless, it follows standard Imperial doctrine of overwhelming numbers and superior tactics to achieve victory. As much as I hate to admit it, the only race as warlike as the Orks are Humans; so tactics and numbers aren't problems for the Imperial war machine. In fact, only the Astartes and the Titans don't use overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, all other Imperials do.

aren't the Tau unable to make ships even close to the size that the Imperium is capable of because they lack the technology to maintain hull integrity on such a grand scale?

Older ships like the Explorer-class and Emissary-class are refitted merchant ships, similar to WWII aircraft carriers. But the new ones, Custodian-class and Protector-class, are true warships, capable of going toe-to-toe with Imperial warships. Tau vessels usually outrange that of other factions, and can outrun even Eldar vessels, but they lack broadside firepower; the standard Imperial tactic in space is to charge in with full shields to point-blank range and unleash hell at broadsides - the Tau won't last long. Astartes (both loyalist and traitor) and Eldar also try to board; Tau are pathetic at melee, and this is even made worse in a starship's corridors. Also, while they can outfly Imperial and Eldar pilots, non-Tau pilots have one weakness: combat experience. In this, they are painfully taken advantage of by Imperial and other pilots.

I don't know where you are pulling some of this Tau stuff out of the air from because some of those things are simply not true, especially those claims against the Eldar.

Tau ships do NOT outrun Eldar vessels. The BFG resources on the GW website shows a speed maximum of 25cm per turn and only on a light escort, while the Forgeworld fleet list ships have a maximum of 20cm per turn. By contrast, the Eldar Void Stalker battleship has speeds of 20-50cm per turn depending on solar wind orientation, and it is already one of the slower Eldar ships. Eldar light cruisers do 30-60cm. This means Eldar ships can outrun and outgun Tau ships of similar class size.

Tau pilots do not out-perform Imperial or Eldar pilots. Yes it is noted that the Air caste is more naturally adept in low-G environments than humans, but the ultimate performance is on par with each other especially given the lack of Tau experience. Eldar small craft again completely, moving a 30cm per turn vs. a Tau Barracuda's 25cm, and with Eldar fighters having a 4+ save representing their greater endurance and maneuverability. A comparison of the BFG performance of Tau Barracudas to Imperial Furies also shows the Tau to be slower (25cm vs. 30cm) and otherwise equal in actual combat against each other. Of the 3 factions mentioned, in terms of space fighter
combat, the Tau are the WORST.
The sources for this are
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350039a_BFG_Tau_Fleets.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350031a_BFG_Imperial_Fleets.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350043a_BFG_Xenos_Fleets.pdf

Thanks for the correction...not trying to be confrontational (can't express tone through the 'net), but I prefer to base my knowledge on fluff rather than TT rules, seeing as I can't get models at reasonable prices here in SE Asia, and even if I did, there's not enough if us here to amke it worthwhile...anyway, I'm still correct though that Tau ships lack broadside firepower and are vulnerable to boarding actions; that's how Astartes usually win over them, by boarding and close in broadsides.

In Battlefleet Gothic the Imperial Navy is pretty impressive.

Spartan 117 wrote:In Battlefleet Gothic the Imperial Navy is pretty impressive.

Even outside of BFG they are. In fact i would argue that they represent the technological pinacle of the imperial warmachine. Sure, some of the navy's ways might appear terribly outdated ( using manual labour to load their guns for example ) but other technologies, like their powerfull voidshields, plasma reactors and lance turrets, appear to be very advanced.

The navy is basicly the star troopers of the emprah. They board enemy vessels for example like shock troops.

Thank you all for the responses. My only impression of the Imperial Navy came from the Space Marine video game, where the opening shot was of naval ships in ruins. I think they were transport ships IIRC. And I'd like to thank the Lord of Decay especially for taking the time to answer this mortal's question.

Iracundus wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Lotet wrote:

Tadashi wrote:As with other Imperial forces, while the Imperium is technologically-advanced to most opponents, generally speaking, the Navy is technologically inferior to some opponents - Eldar, Tau, Necrons - regardless, it follows standard Imperial doctrine of overwhelming numbers and superior tactics to achieve victory. As much as I hate to admit it, the only race as warlike as the Orks are Humans; so tactics and numbers aren't problems for the Imperial war machine. In fact, only the Astartes and the Titans don't use overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, all other Imperials do.

aren't the Tau unable to make ships even close to the size that the Imperium is capable of because they lack the technology to maintain hull integrity on such a grand scale?

Older ships like the Explorer-class and Emissary-class are refitted merchant ships, similar to WWII aircraft carriers. But the new ones, Custodian-class and Protector-class, are true warships, capable of going toe-to-toe with Imperial warships. Tau vessels usually outrange that of other factions, and can outrun even Eldar vessels, but they lack broadside firepower; the standard Imperial tactic in space is to charge in with full shields to point-blank range and unleash hell at broadsides - the Tau won't last long. Astartes (both loyalist and traitor) and Eldar also try to board; Tau are pathetic at melee, and this is even made worse in a starship's corridors. Also, while they can outfly Imperial and Eldar pilots, non-Tau pilots have one weakness: combat experience. In this, they are painfully taken advantage of by Imperial and other pilots.

I don't know where you are pulling some of this Tau stuff out of the air from because some of those things are simply not true, especially those claims against the Eldar.

Tau ships do NOT outrun Eldar vessels. The BFG resources on the GW website shows a speed maximum of 25cm per turn and only on a light escort, while the Forgeworld fleet list ships have a maximum of 20cm per turn. By contrast, the Eldar Void Stalker battleship has speeds of 20-50cm per turn depending on solar wind orientation, and it is already one of the slower Eldar ships. Eldar light cruisers do 30-60cm. This means Eldar ships can outrun and outgun Tau ships of similar class size.

Tau pilots do not out-perform Imperial or Eldar pilots. Yes it is noted that the Air caste is more naturally adept in low-G environments than humans, but the ultimate performance is on par with each other especially given the lack of Tau experience. Eldar small craft again completely, moving a 30cm per turn vs. a Tau Barracuda's 25cm, and with Eldar fighters having a 4+ save representing their greater endurance and maneuverability. A comparison of the BFG performance of Tau Barracudas to Imperial Furies also shows the Tau to be slower (25cm vs. 30cm) and otherwise equal in actual combat against each other. Of the 3 factions mentioned, in terms of space fighter combat, the Tau are the WORST.
The sources for this are
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350039a_BFG_Tau_Fleets.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350031a_BFG_Imperial_Fleets.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350043a_BFG_Xenos_Fleets.pdf

I wouldn't mix game rules with fluff and call it canon. Game rules and fluff canon are two entirely different worlds.

The Imperial Navy is out ranged by most other factions (especially Chaos), but after the heresy the Imperial Navy shifted it's designs philosophy to shorter range, more power batteries and heavy armored prows to adsorb hits as they close range. Cruisers also function best when squadroned, in BFG the IN benefited the most from squadrons.

But, as said before, The Imperial Navy is probity the most powerful arm of the Imperial warmachine when compared to it's peers.

The Imperial Navy is very tough and very powerful.

It is to the point where they can interdict and destroy a similar-sized fleet if they can get there in time, with little trouble at all.

As far as the Adeptus Mechanicus go, look up the Arkan Land-class Dreadnought from WD178.

It solo'ed an entire Ork battlefleet with some weird energy weapon and its shields sliced Ork ships in half when they closed to within 500km by dropping them and raising them again.

The Imperial Navy can go toe to toe with anyone except the Necrons.

Not much can stand up to Nova Cannons. Although, but "not much", I guess I mean "absolutely nothing".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperial Navy can go toe to toe with anyone except the Necrons.

They normally get outmaneuvered by Eldars, though.

jgehunter wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperial Navy can go toe to toe with anyone except the Necrons.

They normally get outmaneuvered by Eldars, though.

And Tau fighters.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperial Navy can go toe to toe with anyone except the Necrons.

Since Necrons 5e they can go against them to.

The Imperium/humanity is particularly well suited to having a dominant navy.

They have the numbers. The Imperium is large, and humanity is numerous. As naval engagements happen on the largest of scales, this gives them both strategic flexibility, and depth to their force. A single ill-fated battle will never cripple them, and even those they lose, they are able to wear down their opponents, who generally are far more exhaustable, in terms of battle losses.

They have the resources. The Imperium is able to produce, maintain and crew their massive naval power. Say what you want about stagnant Imperial tech, they are efficient when it comes down to "produce this quota or "else"" situations. If nothing else, they can throw the truly immense amounts of labor, materials, and specialists at the task of fleet building, and possess the foundries and fleet bases to effectively do this.

They have the tech. Sure, some other races might out tech the Imperium, but we're not talking on the same scale as a tank fight or infantry. Up in the void, brute, hamfisted tech can be particularly advantageous. The ability to endure when the massive, coordinated fire of fleet actions counts for a great deal. Imperial tech gets the job done, especially on the naval scale.

They have the organization and heirarchy. Imperial culture lends itself to supporting an effective navy. Orders aren't questioned, command chains are clear. An unparalleled logistical engine threads throughout the galaxy, capable of supporting the massive requirements of such a large fleet.

They have the expertise. The Navy is its own culture. Many live, grow old and die in the void. Their ships are everything, many being quite literally a part of them. They know their ships, they know the void. And they fight. They see conflict, and unlike a guardsman, naval ships are far more likely to fight for some time. Far more likely to gain and accrue experience in battle.

Because of all this, the Imperial Navy is ultimately unmatched. Chaos has the experience and will to fight, but not the infastructure to support their fleets properly, nor the effective organization and command network. The Tau lack the expertise, the numbers, and the raw support and resources to stand up to the Imperium's navy. The Eldar of any stripe have the tech and the ability, but could never last in a truly protracted war. The Tyranids are terrifying, but would probably lose a protracted void war without having worlds to replace the sheer biomass they would spend fighting the Imperial Navy.

To me, the tough two are the Necrons and the Orks.

The Necrons because they are few in number, of singularly deadly. However, I don't think even the Necrons could ultimately stand up to the sheer weight of the Imperial Navy. Less so now, with the new fluff dividing them somewhat. Sheer destructive power can and has stopped the Necrons, and sheer destructive power is what the Imperial Navy, on the large scale, is really good at.

The Orks are tough not in the direct sense, but because of their general lack of a navy. They don't have any logistics or resource structure, or command chain to critique. They come hurtling out of the warp by some Gork-forsaken means, and their ships, frequently, are means-to-an-ends devices (with some notable exceptions.) I don't suggest that the Imperial Navy would lose a serious protracted void war against the Orks so much as it would be hard for the Imperium to inflict meaningful losses on the large scale. That is, so you blow up some big hulk and a whole mess of Orks. ...so? What's the loss? It isn't some centralized fleet beast of the Tyranids, it isn't some aeons-old, preserved weapon of the Necrons. It isn't some technological marvel of a Tau prototype, nor the favoured tool of some great dameon. It is a bunch of crap cobbled together, hijacked, or even just infested with Orks and flung in a general direction they want it to go. There's a decent chance it doesn't even have a real name. The Orks will never truly threaten the Imperial navy on a large scale, but the Imperium trying to wipe out the Orks navy would just be the 40k version of Caligula's war against Neptune.

@DrimGark your post win this thread.

You just forgotten to mention the firepower Imperial Navy ships posses, the medium class In ship is armed like Tau most advanced battleship.

The only problem IN has is territory it has to defend. One Imperial sector is 300 light years, that is a LOT of space to cover and defend, especially when stars can be really close by and that means a lot of planets to look over to.