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Is a close combat attack with a Melta Bomb a Rending attack at the strength of the model? If it isn't, then the model is using wargear to affect it's attacks.

ToBeWilly wrote:Is a close combat attack with a Melta Bomb a Rending attack at the strength of the model? If it isn't, then the model is using wargear to affect it's attacks.

Not true.
His statline changed. The attacks from that statline cannot be affected.
Using the grenade ignores your statline.

ToBeWilly wrote:Is a close combat attack with a Melta Bomb a Rending attack at the strength of the model? If it isn't, then the model is using wargear to affect it's attacks.

That's a really bad exaple, there you're suggesting the melta bombs affect the MotW attacks, combining the two, and using that to justify a point. Neither rule (Melta bombs not MotW) would allow this.

As mentioned earlier, with MotW "these" attacks are not affected by wargear. The rules state that. With a melta bomb you are not using "these" attacks.

I'm sorry, you are using wargear to affect the close combat attacks of a model whose close combat attacks cannot be affected by wargear.

I do not agree with the "these attacks" are not the attacks that the Melta Bomb is using. The model bearing the MotW is the one making the close combat attacks, and his close combat attacks cannot be affected by wargear.

And they aren't. At all. You aren't using his statline attacks.
His statline attacks are the ones that cannot be affected by wargear. When opting to use a grenade you are forbidden from using them.

His attacks are not being modified in any way, shape, or form.
He's just not using them.

Yeah, he is completely losing his normal attacks(MOTW attacks) for a special Melta Bomb attack. This does not alter his baseline attacks. It replaces them completely.

They are still there, he just doesn't use them.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, he is completely losing his normal attacks(MOTW attacks) for a special Melta Bomb attack. This does not alter his baseline attacks. It replaces them completely.

They are still there, he just doesn't use them.

Where are you getting this "change to base line stats" as the only negation of wargear nonsense?

A power weapon does not change the baseline stats.

A MotW model cannot use a power weapon.

2 1-handed CCWs does not change a baseline stat(the bonus is a bonus attack, not a Bonus to the A value).

A MotW model does not benefit from 2 1-handed CCWs.

All of that is not to say that the MotW model cannot use a Melta bomb(he can); the reason he can use the melta bomb is because there is no restriction from using another form of attack.

A Lone Wolf with a Combi Melta and the Mark getting tank shocked is free to take that Melta shot(assuming he hadn't shot it yet) even though he had the option of making a Rending CC attack; in the same way a Marked Lone wolf with a Melta Bomb can choose to make the Grenade Attack instead of his normal CC attacks

I am just repeating myself, I know, and for that I apologize. But, I can not square the idea, in my own head, of using wargear that affects close combat attacks on a model whose close combat attacks can not be affected by wargear. It doesn't matter if the model is making "these attacks" or those attacks or an optional form of attack. It is still the model bearing the MotW that is making the close combat attacks, and his close combat attacks can not be affected by wargear.

To be, the difference is the wargear he is using (Meltabombs) do not affect HIS CC attacks. Meltabombs do not care how many Attacks the model has, and they have nothing to do with the models Attacks.

The single grenade attack he makes is not "His" attacks.

His attacks are on his statline, which is replaced by MotW.

DeathReaper wrote:To be, the difference is the wargear he is using (Meltabombs) do not affect HIS CC attacks. Meltabombs do not care how many Attacks the model has, and they have nothing to do with the models Attacks.

The single grenade attack he makes is not "His" attacks.

His attacks are on his statline, which is replaced by MotW.

I do not agree with that. The model is still making the attack. Of course they are his attacks.

If the model, for whatever reason, had 0 Attacks, could he still use the grenade attack in close combat? I don't think so. The model still has to make the attack. Which means it's still the model making the attack.

Forget the rules, consider the fluff.

Mark of the Wolfen... the afflicted marine flies into a frenzy and cannot use any wargear because he's too busy biting, clawing, scratching, humping, anything that gets close.

He doesn't have the cognitive capacity to swing a chain sword... do you think that he's gonna find the clarity of mind to pull the pin on a 'nade and find a convenient place to plonk it on to his target vehicle?

Having been shocked that this is an issue that comes up, I grabbed my codex and took a look.

Line 1: Fluff
Line 2: You now get D6+1 attacks as your baseline.
Line 3: You don't get to use wargear to effect "These attacks".

The way I read it and pg 63 the grenades text box.
Regardless of what model and special rules you have you can only make 1 attack with a grenade.
I don't see a situation where the model can't use his Krak grenades or melta bombs. The wargear I see as being an issue for effecting these attacks are power weapons and other things that would effect how those attacks behave in cc. Since you are jamming a grenade somewhere vital you swap the lot and "These attacks" are not a problem. Most MOTW models would have frag and krak grenades, do they not get to use them either?

I don't see a problem with a model with no attacks and some form of grenade using them in cc with a vehicle, RAW.

Sorry for not quoting but I have seen people say we are quoting too much of the codexes and rulebook.

ToBeWilly wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:To be, the difference is the wargear he is using (Meltabombs) do not affect HIS CC attacks. Meltabombs do not care how many Attacks the model has, and they have nothing to do with the models Attacks.

The single grenade attack he makes is not "His" attacks.

His attacks are on his statline, which is replaced by MotW.

I do not agree with that. The model is still making the attack. Of course they are his attacks.

If the model, for whatever reason, had 0 Attacks, could he still use the grenade attack in close combat? I don't think so. The model still has to make the attack. Which means it's still the model making the attack.

No, his attacks are on his statline, which the grenade replaces.

and yes, if the model has 0 attacks on his statline, he still could make a grenade attack, since the grenade section specifically allows 1 attack "Regardless of the number of Attacks on their profile" (BRB 63)

Frag wrote:Forget the rules, consider the fluff.

No, down that road madness lies.

Also if we followed that then your MOTW model couldn't shoot etc, your BA armies would not be able to have a shooting phase with any squad that fails its red thirst rules or DC wouldn't get to pepper the opponent before charging. A DC dread wouldn't be able to hit the enemy with a melta, heavy flamer and a boom box before ripping into them.
So if you want to play that way then go for it but only in friendly matches.

liturgies of blood wrote:Having been shocked that this is an issue that comes up, I grabbed my codex and took a look.

Line 1: Fluff
Line 2: You now get D6+1 attacks as your baseline.
Line 3: You don't get to use wargear to effect "These attacks".

The way I read it and pg 63 the grenades text box.
Regardless of what model and special rules you have you can only make 1 attack with a grenade.
I don't see a situation where the model can't use his Krak grenades or melta bombs. The wargear I see as being an issue for effecting these attacks are power weapons and other things that would effect how those attacks behave in cc. Since you are jamming a grenade somewhere vital you swap the lot and "These attacks" are not a problem. Most MOTW models would have frag and krak grenades, do they not get to use them either?

I don't see a problem with a model with no attacks and some form of grenade using them in cc with a vehicle, RAW.

Sorry for not quoting but I have seen people say we are quoting too much of the codexes and rulebook.

Not sure why I've been following this thread but (IMO) this is the best explanation. Well said. And great point on frag and krak grenades as well.

The, "these attacks" point is about as solid as you can get.

Notice that the d6 +1 attacks are not at 8+(2d6) armor penetration? That means that the melta bomb is not affecting those attacks.

Now take into account how a power weapon or powerfist would affect those attacks. That is wargear affecting those d6 + 1 attacks.