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Ok so I recently picked up a Space Wolves codex. So I get that a model with the mark of the wulfen replaces his attack characteristics and can't make use of things like frost weapons or wolf claws, etc. It also says that these attacks can't use wargear. But can I use a melta bomb with him since it is a different attack and not a normal one?

Don't see why not. Those with the mark can still use other equipment, like bolt pistols (for shooting, no bonus in CC).

Obviously you couldn't use the Mark to gain any extra advantages, so it would still be one attack only (non-rending) with the melta bomb.

Page 63 in the BRB states you only ever get one attack with grenades regardless of bonus attacks.

Cool thanks

I disagree. In close combat, a model with MotW, only has one option, "...he replaces his usual Attacks characteristic with D6+1, rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks...".

Also, Melta Bombs are wargear, and his attacks are not affected my wargear.

Models armed with other special weapons can make use of melta bombs, I don't see much difference here.

The attack characteristic isn't used, so obviously only one meta bomb attack.

Mark of the Wulfan replaces his Attack characteristic with a different value.

Melta Bombs state you may forsake all your normal attacks for a single attack at Str8 with 2D6 armor penetration.

Grey Templar wrote:Mark of the Wulfan replaces his Attack characteristic with a different value.

Melta Bombs state you may forsake all your normal attacks for a single attack at Str8 with 2D6 armor penetration.

Actually Melta Bombs don't have a "Strength" value, just an armor penetration value of "8+2D6".

Happyjew wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Mark of the Wulfan replaces his Attack characteristic with a different value.

Melta Bombs state you may forsake all your normal attacks for a single attack at Str8 with 2D6 armor penetration.

Actually Melta Bombs don't have a "Strength" value, just an armor penetration value of "8+2D6".

Actually they do, it is 8, as all armor pen rolls roll Str+1d6 (Which meltabombs make into 2D6)

We don't need to have that stupid argument in this unrelated thread.

DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Mark of the Wulfan replaces his Attack characteristic with a different value.

Melta Bombs state you may forsake all your normal attacks for a single attack at Str8 with 2D6 armor penetration.

Actually Melta Bombs don't have a "Strength" value, just an armor penetration value of "8+2D6".

Actually they do, it is 8, as all armor pen rolls roll Str+1d6 (Which meltabombs make into 2D6)

Where does it state anywhere that Melta Bombs have a strength?

If it's never states, everything you are saying is conjecture.

It's implicit. But I'm with MSP that there's no need to drag this thread off topic to have that argument again.

grendel083 wrote:Models armed with other special weapons can make use of melta bombs, I don't see much difference here.

The attack characteristic isn't used, so obviously only one meta bomb attack.

Attacks made by models with MotW are not affected by wargear.
Melta Bombs are wargear. Hence, attacks by models with MotW are not affected by Melta Bombs.

Mark of the Wulfen is not a Special Weapon.

ToBeWilly wrote:Attacks made by models with MotW are not affected by wargear.
Melta Bombs are wargear. Hence, attacks by models with MotW are not affected by Melta Bombs.

Mark of the Wulfen is not a Special Weapon.

True, attacks with MotW are not affected by Wargear.

But in the case of melta bombs you're not trying to use the melta with MotW attacks. You're opting to use the melta bombs instead of attacking normally.

This is why I suggest some one with MotW can opt to use melta bombs. It's not being used with his attacks, it's replacing them entirely if you choose to use them.

I could see reading that either way; that the MB may still be used in place of his normal attacks, or that a model with MotW can't benefit from wargear at all when he attacks, as he's too crazy.

IMO it should be the latter, as his attacks are not affected by wargear, he doesn't have the option to use/benefit from a meltabomb.

grendel083 wrote:True, attacks with MotW are not affected by Wargear.

But in the case of melta bombs you're not trying to use the melta with MotW attacks. You're opting to use the melta bombs instead of attacking normally.

This is why I suggest some one with MotW can opt to use melta bombs. It's not being used with his attacks, it's replacing them entirely if you choose to use them.

What you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is a model bearing the MotW can choose not to be a model bearing the MotW and attack normally (or have those attacks be affected by wargear, such as Meltabombs, powerfists and so on). If that is what you are saying, I still disagree.

"A model bearing the MotW has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore...". (Page 62, Codex: Space Wolves) It is not giving you a choice. You either are a model bearing the MotW, or you are not.

ToBeWilly wrote:

grendel083 wrote:True, attacks with MotW are not affected by Wargear.

But in the case of melta bombs you're not trying to use the melta with MotW attacks. You're opting to use the melta bombs instead of attacking normally.

This is why I suggest some one with MotW can opt to use melta bombs. It's not being used with his attacks, it's replacing them entirely if you choose to use them.

What you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is a model bearing the MotW can choose not to be a model bearing the MotW and attack normally (or have those attacks be affected by wargear, such as Meltabombs, powerfists and so on). If that is what you are saying, I still disagree.

"A model bearing the MotW has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore...". (Page 62, Codex: Space Wolves) It is not giving you a choice. You either are a model bearing the MotW, or you are not.

Not really what I'm saying.

Normaly a model with melta bombs has a choice. Attack normaly with whatever weapons/wargear he's equipped with, or forego this to make a single melta bomb attack.

I'm suggesting the same, attack normally (in this case MotW) or forego this to make a single melta bomb attack.

Melta bombs do not effect normal attacks (as you stated otherwise above). They defiantly don't effect MotW attacks, I'm in no way suggesting they do.

Melta bombs give you a choice of how you attack. A different 'attack mode' if you will. Neither mode effects the other. One or the other.

Their use does not break the any of the rules for MotW (MotW Attacks are not effected by wargear), because you're not making any MotW attacks. Melta bombs are a special type of attack themselves, they don't effect or work with anything else.

ToBeWilly wrote:It is not giving you a choice. You either are a model bearing the MotW, or you are not.

A model with a powersword is not given a choice either. If that's his only weapon, then that is what he must use. Melta bombs give you that choice. I see no difference with MotW, and have found no rule to suggest otherwise.

Can I just ask as a space wolf player... why would you ever put melta bombs on the MOTW model?

Spread them around and maximise your unit for wound allocation.

No idea, I don't play Space Wolves. One of my regular opponents does, and seems to enjoy using a lonewolf (MotW+melta bombs). It's a beloved character he won't leave home without (even if tactically unwise)

Yeah, I wouldn't use that ever. That is the only combination I can think of.

Outside of that rare lone wolf combo, which I don't use on my lone wolf, I don't see why anyone would have it with exception of maybe a wolf scout unit with one motw and the squad has melta bombs.

If a model bearing the MotW is making close combat attacks using anything other then it's Rending claws and teeth, it is using wargear that affects it's attacks.

The rules for Mark of the Wulfen does not allow for this.

ToBeWilly wrote:If a model bearing the MotW is making close combat attacks using anything other then it's Rending claws and teeth, it is using wargear that affects it's attacks.

The rules for Mark of the Wulfen does not allow for this.

It's not affecting his attacks, it's substituting his attacks. There's nothing in the MotW rules to say they can't be used.

grendel083 wrote:It's not affecting his attacks, it's substituting his attacks.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. Substituting something is definitely affecting it.

grendel083 wrote:There's nothing in the MotW rules to say they can't be used.

"These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and hence are not affected by wargear...", page 62, Codex: Space Wolves.
A model bearing the MotW making a close combat attack with Melta Bombs is using wargear that is affecting his attacks.

Are you telling me that a model who's attacks can not be affected by wargear, can have his attacks affected by wargear as long as it's grenades?

ToBeWilly wrote:

grendel083 wrote:It's not affecting his attacks, it's substituting his attacks.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. Substituting something is definitely affecting it.

This is where I disagree.

MotW attacks are not affected by wargear. I agree 100%, the rules clearly state that. But when using a grenade attack the models MotW attacks don't even come into play. They have no effect on each other.

grendel083 wrote:MotW attacks are not affected by wargear. I agree 100%, the rules clearly state that. But when using a grenade attack the models MotW attacks don't even come into play. They have no effect on each other.

I'm sorry. If you do not see the contradiction in your statement, then there is no point in continuing this.

You are saying a model whose attacks can not be affected by wargear, can be affected by wargear.

We must agree to disagree.

ToBeWilly wrote:You are saying a model whose attacks can not be affected by wargear, can be affected by wargear.

No.
Models with a grenade have the option to use the grenade. This means they make one attack with the grenade.
MotW replaces the A in your statline with d6+1. Those d6+1 attacks are not further modified by wargear.

This means that you can't have a power weapon wielding MotW model.
There's nothing forcing you to use those attacks when you have the option of using a grenade.

I agree that it seems tactically unsound- Wulfen already get a chance to rend a vehicle at S4. Maybe it is an attached WG w/MB and Mark?

As to legality, MBs do not affect your CC attacks. It allows a separate option under the grenade rules. I would allow it, but never use it.

rigeld2 wrote:No.
Models with a grenade have the option to use the grenade. This means they make one attack with the grenade.
MotW replaces the A in your statline with d6+1. Those d6+1 attacks are not further modified by wargear.

This means that you can't have a power weapon wielding MotW model.
There's nothing forcing you to use those attacks when you have the option of using a grenade.

Incorrect. The models close combat attacks are made with their Rending claws and teeth. If the models close combat attacks are anything else, then you are affecting the models attacks with wargear. Which is specifically disallowed.

It doesn't say the models close combat attacks are not affected by other Special Close Combat Weapons. It says the models close combat attacks are not affected by wargear. Melta Bombs are wargear.

ToBeWilly wrote:Incorrect. The models close combat attacks are made with their Rending claws and teeth. If the models close combat attacks are anything else, then you are affecting the models attacks with wargear. Which is specifically disallowed.

"These attacks" are not affected by wargear. Show how the meltabomb is modifying "these attacks".
A wolftooth necklace would be modifying "these attacks" and would be disallowed.
The Meltabombs are not affecting the attacks.
The choice made by the player is using the meltabomb.

It doesn't say the models close combat attacks are not affected by other Special Close Combat Weapons. It says the models close combat attacks are not affected by wargear. Melta Bombs are wargear.

And the meltabombs are not affecting the attacks.
There's nothing in the MotW rules saying you lose the option to attack with grenades.