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Cleansing flame is not that awesome against hordes? Really? Then why does it affect half of the entire mob with an instant wound that can only be mitigated by an armor save? Guess which armies have high T and low armor saves? Oh yeah, horde armies.

An ability that kills, on average, 12 Orks on a 30 man mob before blows have been struck is simply as good as it gets, for any army.

TedNugent wrote:Cleansing flame is not that awesome against hordes? Really? Then why does it affect half of the entire mob with an instant wound that can only be mitigated by an armor save? Guess which armies have high T and low armor saves? Oh yeah, horde armies.

An ability that kills, on average, 12 Orks on a 30 man mob before blows have been struck is simply as good as it gets, for any army.

Havent disputed math Im saying in practice it doesnt always work that way. You can't rely on it to alway kill that many. Some games it may kill all 30 and in some may only kill 1. I've played lots of games with the purifiers and I can say from my exp the shooting and cc are way more reliable then cf. So be snarky and condescending but I've played with em and seen youre "winning flame" be a total bust in competitive games.

Draigo wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Cleansing flame is not that awesome against hordes? Really? Then why does it affect half of the entire mob with an instant wound that can only be mitigated by an armor save? Guess which armies have high T and low armor saves? Oh yeah, horde armies.

An ability that kills, on average, 12 Orks on a 30 man mob before blows have been struck is simply as good as it gets, for any army.

Havent disputed math Im saying in practice it doesnt always work that way. You can't rely on it to alway kill that many. Some games it may kill all 30 and in some may only kill 1. I've played lots of games with the purifiers and I can say from my exp the shooting and cc are way more reliable then cf. So be snarky and condescending but I've played with em and seen youre "winning flame" be a total bust in competitive games.

Come on bro you can't try to dissuade someone from starting an army by saying it won't go well if the dice hate you

Draigo wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Cleansing flame is not that awesome against hordes? Really? Then why does it affect half of the entire mob with an instant wound that can only be mitigated by an armor save? Guess which armies have high T and low armor saves? Oh yeah, horde armies.

An ability that kills, on average, 12 Orks on a 30 man mob before blows have been struck is simply as good as it gets, for any army.

Havent disputed math Im saying in practice it doesnt always work that way. You can't rely on it to alway kill that many. Some games it may kill all 30 and in some may only kill 1. I've played lots of games with the purifiers and I can say from my exp the shooting and cc are way more reliable then cf. So be snarky and condescending but I've played with em and seen youre "winning flame" be a total bust in competitive games.

The unit isn't reliable because dice aren't reliable. That's a bad argument. You say you aren't disputing the math, but then you go right ahead and do so. The math indicates the expected usual outcome. Cleansing flame failing to kill anything is one of those "My terminators died to grot pistols," it's an extreme case.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

Draigo wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Cleansing flame is not that awesome against hordes? Really? Then why does it affect half of the entire mob with an instant wound that can only be mitigated by an armor save? Guess which armies have high T and low armor saves? Oh yeah, horde armies.

An ability that kills, on average, 12 Orks on a 30 man mob before blows have been struck is simply as good as it gets, for any army.

Havent disputed math Im saying in practice it doesnt always work that way. You can't rely on it to alway kill that many. Some games it may kill all 30 and in some may only kill 1. I've played lots of games with the purifiers and I can say from my exp the shooting and cc are way more reliable then cf. So be snarky and condescending but I've played with em and seen youre "winning flame" be a total bust in competitive games.

Come on bro you can't try to dissuade someone from starting an army by saying it won't go well if the dice hate you

Havent tried to dissuade anyone. Read earlier posts and Im giving a realistic expectations. Yes it can be great but use it to help you not expect it. How is being realistic a bad thing? You always see the hype and see veterans do well with the army but seldom do you see the other side of the coin. I have seen beginners try the army because of false pretense and then think OMG why did i lose? The interwebs say this is an autowin.

Draigo wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

Draigo wrote:

TedNugent wrote:Cleansing flame is not that awesome against hordes? Really? Then why does it affect half of the entire mob with an instant wound that can only be mitigated by an armor save? Guess which armies have high T and low armor saves? Oh yeah, horde armies.

An ability that kills, on average, 12 Orks on a 30 man mob before blows have been struck is simply as good as it gets, for any army.

Havent disputed math Im saying in practice it doesnt always work that way. You can't rely on it to alway kill that many. Some games it may kill all 30 and in some may only kill 1. I've played lots of games with the purifiers and I can say from my exp the shooting and cc are way more reliable then cf. So be snarky and condescending but I've played with em and seen youre "winning flame" be a total bust in competitive games.

Come on bro you can't try to dissuade someone from starting an army by saying it won't go well if the dice hate you

Havent tried to dissuade anyone. Read earlier posts and Im giving a realistic expectations. Yes it can be great but use it to help you not expect it. How is being realistic a bad thing? You always see the hype and see veterans do well with the army but seldom do you see the other side of the coin. I have seen beginners try the army because of false pretense and then think OMG why did i lose? The interwebs say this is an autowin.

Net lists are never as effective as people make them out to be, green tide won a tournament I was playing in over the weekend, GK's with 3 ravens and a footdar placed and pretty much the whole irish etc team were there so it was high standard. Being realistic is never a bad thing, stating as part of your argument that out of 30 dice one might wound while its being realistic (if improbable) doesn't help the debate at all. I don't care enough to argue just making a point.

Draigo wrote:

Havent disputed math Im saying in practice it doesnt always work that way. You can't rely on it to alway kill that many. Some games it may kill all 30 and in some may only kill 1. I've played lots of games with the purifiers and I can say from my exp the shooting and cc are way more reliable then cf. So be snarky and condescending but I've played with em and seen youre "winning flame" be a total bust in competitive games.

So in spite of the fact that it kills an -average- of twelve on a 30 man mob before blows are struck, in addition to the fact that any CF wounds are just gravy before your Purifiers Halberd everything in the face....

It can occasionally kill less than that, and so now what?

Everything is viable, now? Should I run Grots because even though the vast majority of the time they'll get wiped, force leadership and run off the board, every now and again I can kill a Terminator with a Grot pistol?

TBH I find it really hard to take anyone named "Draigo" seriously when they're talking about Cleansing Flame. Particularly after this exchange. Faith ruined. Lol.

The fact of the matter is that Cleansing Flame is the most reliable anti-horde tool in the GK Codex. If that's not good enough for you, god help you.

Edit, by the way, the probability that CF will kill at LEAST one Ork Boy out of 30 is literally 99.99%.

http://vassarstats.net/binomialX.html

Well, the chance to kill zero boyz with CF is actually nontrivial. It's more than 1/6. Even the KotF is only Ld9, so only 5/6 casts succeed, and there's that faint chance of zero wounds or all saved. One can and will fail to cast at critical times, I've certainly had that happen. But this does not make it bad. I've also blown away 2/3 of a unit on good rolls. Even factoring in fails, over the course of a game CF should still do substantial damage to its target unit types. This is a dice game. There's a 1/6 chance that the boyz Waagh to fleet in, get a 1, and fall 1" outside charge range looking like dopes. There are always outlier results, but the majority of results should fall within a certain, less extreme, range. The relevant arguments should center around the probable results, and the majority of CF attempts will do substantial damage to large weak-save units. CF's risk is more that the Purifiers will fail to cast after having charged than failing to do anything if cast. It's a high-reward medium risk tool. It can cost you potential shooting on your next turn if you're still stuck in, and exposes you to more potential damage on the unit since you probably won't kill them all on the charge. But you have such a good chance of doing high damage to the mob. Yes, it can whiff, but so can anything. I've seen a hammerhead tag a razorback in the open three times in a row and never get more than a stun.

Cleansing Flame is an incredibly useful tool and properly applied, helps against hordes where shot count matters more than shot quality. It's not autowin against hordes, but it helps the low-model-count army fight them. It's still a risk because Grey Knights, even Purifiers, should favour shooting over cc, but it's there to help when you finally have to get stuck in to deny their charge.