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Alright I am an Ultramarine player and really like the way the Grey Knights looks and am curious as to whether they play just like regular marines? If not how do they differ? Thank you for your help guys.

Synister_Intent wrote:Alright I am an Ultramarine player and really like the way the Grey Knights looks and am curious as to whether they play just like regular marines? If not how do they differ? Thank you for your help guys.

They play like the SPACE MARINES of space marines

No they don't. They have different weapons, don't have speeders, bikes, thunderfire, etc.

They don't have melta unless your run a landraider, storm raven, or henchman.

They have different powers, no ironclads, etc.

Yes is short they don't play the same at all.

mini war gaming dave once said: "if your the kind of person who wants friends, you won't play grey knights"

Draigo wrote:No they don't. They have different weapons, don't have speeders, bikes, thunderfire, etc.

They don't have melta unless your run a landraider, storm raven, or henchman.

They have different powers, no ironclads, etc.

Yes is short they don't play the same at all.

You read the sentence wrong sir

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:No they don't. They have different weapons, don't have speeders, bikes, thunderfire, etc.

They don't have melta unless your run a landraider, storm raven, or henchman.

They have different powers, no ironclads, etc.

Yes is short they don't play the same at all.

You read the sentence wrong sir

The question was do they play the same. They don't. How is that misread?

They are not as forgiving as you tend to always be outnumbered/ out gunned by everyone. (includeing all termie armys)

Molotovsoda wrote:mini war gaming dave once said: "if your the kind of person who wants friends, you won't play grey knights"

Indeed. I started playing Grey Knights when I first got back into 40k, and quickly dumped em, realizing how broken they are. They are no fun to play, but mostly no fun to play against in my opinion.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:No they don't. They have different weapons, don't have speeders, bikes, thunderfire, etc.

They don't have melta unless your run a landraider, storm raven, or henchman.

They have different powers, no ironclads, etc.

Yes is short they don't play the same at all.

You read the sentence wrong sir

The question was do they play the same. They don't. How is that misread?

Because... base on your reply of different space marine UNITS been listed, I can tell you are attempting to correct me by
telling me GK are not the same as vanilla SM.

However, my original response had nothing to do that. "Space Marine of Space Marine"
implies elite of the elites.

Shootier!
Assaultier!
Tougher!
Expensiver!

they are the special forces unit

small numbers crazy strength weapons

LunaHound wrote:Because... base on your reply of different space marine UNITS been listed, I can tell you are attempting to correct me by
telling me GK are not the same as vanilla SM.

However, my original response had nothing to do that.

Aaaand it doesn't occur to you that he was answering not your post but the OP directly ? That's how I read it.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:No they don't. They have different weapons, don't have speeders, bikes, thunderfire, etc.

They don't have melta unless your run a landraider, storm raven, or henchman.

They have different powers, no ironclads, etc.

Yes is short they don't play the same at all.

You read the sentence wrong sir

The question was do they play the same. They don't. How is that misread?

Because... base on your reply of different space marine UNITS been listed, I can tell you are attempting to correct me by
telling me GK are not the same as vanilla SM.

However, my original response had nothing to do that. "Space Marine of Space Marine"
implies elite of the elites.

Shootier!
Assaultier!
Tougher!
Expensiver!

How was I correcting you? I was answering the op question. You seriously have a persecution delusion when it comes to me. First you accuse me of reporting you and now you produce another snap judgement. We disagreed months ago get over it and move on. They don't play like vanilla marines. Thats a fact. They have different rules, weapons, and cost more. They die like them since they still are wearing power armor and terminator armor.

Draigo wrote:How was I correcting you? I was answering the op question. You seriously have a persecution delusion when it comes to me. First you accuse me of reporting you and now you produce another snap judgement. We disagreed months ago get over it and move on. They don't play like vanilla marines. Thats a fact. They have different rules, weapons, and cost more. They die like them since they still are wearing power armor and terminator armor.

You and Hyd are right, Im sorry.

You seriously have a persecution delusion when it comes to me.

Yes unfortunately I do, its a side effect when Im left to fend for myself for the past 2 years.

To answer the OP question with some details.

Every marine in the army will have an almost special weapon level of shooting (stormbolter at least) and a power/force weapon. You pay a few points more per model so this elite mentality leads to leaner armies that tend to do better without vehicles than normal vanillas.

All of their units are variation of the same tac squad or termie squad however they have many more options.

They have terminators as troops and elite terminators that feature an extra wound, insane amount of customization plus feel no pain to boot. In a random FLGS setting the Paladin army against newer players is a difficult of an army to beat imaginable. They feature numerous FOC swaps and most of their best builds feature the recipe of: Special character + thing that should not be spammed as your troop choice + insanely cheap support for what it does.

Their signature weapon is the Psycannon, a higher strength assault cannon that can be fired as assault and will form the backbone of your shooting. Combat squads insure you can realize a MSU (multiple small unit) force that doesnt need as many vehicles, however they certainly get some of the better ones.

The army features the most efficient vehicle shooters in any marine list in the form of either a cheap higher strength heavy bolter razorback OR (even worse and jerkier) a dreadnought that has twin linked assault cannons for arms, with a +1 str for good measure. These two items are horrible cheap.

They also feature some of the most unique and powerful individual models found in 40k. Their techmarines are powerful assault allies due to their grenade options. The librarians they support are the best generic marine characters currently in 40k. Vindicare assassins kill vehicles dead.

With all of this said the army is certainly defeatable, veteran players will hand your lunch to you if your not careful. May the gods have mercy on the unprepared though...

TL;DR=

Shootier!
Assaultier!
Tougher!
Expensiver!

I have to disagree about the techmarine since hes an IC with 1 wound. If you add in the grenades hes over 100 pts which is a heafty price.

If you really want to add the grenades I'd suggest using a xenos Inquisitor since hes vastly cheaper.

Theough you are correct about the Libby. He's outstanding and with Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, and Warp Rift is fantastic for his pts.

Draigo wrote:I have to disagree about the techmarine since hes an IC with 1 wound. If you add in the grenades hes over 100 pts which is a heafty price.

If you really want to add the grenades I'd suggest using a xenos Inquisitor since hes vastly cheaper.

Theough you are correct about the Libby. He's outstanding and with Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, and Warp Rift is fantastic for his pts.

in any event getting rad and psyke grenades into a combat largely makes rolling the dice anything more than a yahtzee side game that isnt needed, the other guy died.

lazarian wrote:

Draigo wrote:I have to disagree about the techmarine since hes an IC with 1 wound. If you add in the grenades hes over 100 pts which is a heafty price.

If you really want to add the grenades I'd suggest using a xenos Inquisitor since hes vastly cheaper.

Theough you are correct about the Libby. He's outstanding and with Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, and Warp Rift is fantastic for his pts.

in any event getting rad and psyke grenades into a combat largely makes rolling the dice anything more than a yahtzee side game that isnt needed, the other guy died.

That's a presumptous stereotype not a fact and in an army that pays premium pts why waste pts where you can get the same effect for half?

Draigo wrote:

lazarian wrote:

Draigo wrote:I have to disagree about the techmarine since hes an IC with 1 wound. If you add in the grenades hes over 100 pts which is a heafty price.

If you really want to add the grenades I'd suggest using a xenos Inquisitor since hes vastly cheaper.

Theough you are correct about the Libby. He's outstanding and with Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, and Warp Rift is fantastic for his pts.

in any event getting rad and psyke grenades into a combat largely makes rolling the dice anything more than a yahtzee side game that isnt needed, the other guy died.

That's a presumptous stereotype not a fact and in an army that pays premium pts why waste pts where you can get the same effect for half?

Dont get bent, I agree buying it on the inquisitor is cheaper. The Techmarine is a marine so it looks cooler

they are elite and cost very few points. you can spam veterans (purifiers) for dirt cheap. only 240 points for 10 and they all come with force weapons, tons of special rules, storm bolters and free upgrades.

in a small game of 1500 points you can have a purifier horde of 50 + crow. they are cheap elite psyker marines. usually you need to pay alot to get special weapons and stuff but these guys can take whatever for next to nothing.

Draigo wrote:

lazarian wrote:

Draigo wrote:I have to disagree about the techmarine since hes an IC with 1 wound. If you add in the grenades hes over 100 pts which is a heafty price.

If you really want to add the grenades I'd suggest using a xenos Inquisitor since hes vastly cheaper.

Theough you are correct about the Libby. He's outstanding and with Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, and Warp Rift is fantastic for his pts.

in any event getting rad and psyke grenades into a combat largely makes rolling the dice anything more than a yahtzee side game that isnt needed, the other guy died.

That's a presumptous stereotype not a fact and in an army that pays premium pts why waste pts where you can get the same effect for half?

100'ish pts is still a steal for what amounts to adding a -1T pentalty + herp-durp grenades effects which only have 2 mediocre results. And you can include more techmarines than you can xenos inquisitors.

Sure, in a strike squad it's an overly expensive way to make them into an assault unit.
In a termie or purifyer squad though, it's a god damn steal that turns almost any assault into a 'win-button'.

Well just have to disagree there because I don't think its a steal. I can find other things Id rather spend 300 pts on then 3 techmarines. Like Idk another squad and with transport, vindicare with vendred, storm raven, etc. Plus you can always just put the grenades on a grandmaster too who is much more surivivable.

I'd rather spend Elite slots on units to help with AV and mass psycannon saturation. The other cost of a Techmarine is less Purifiers or Vendreads. Remember, Venerable is far better when you can wipe away stun/shake.

Regardless, I've yet to see anything survive a grenade beating.

GreyHamster wrote:I'd rather spend Elite slots on units to help with AV and mass psycannon saturation. The other cost of a Techmarine is less Purifiers or Vendreads. Remember, Venerable is far better when you can wipe away stun/shake.

If you want Purifyers, 99% of the time you pay your 'Crowe Tax' and get them as scoring units. 1x Ven dread is all you need considering most GK lists tend towards at least a pair of regular psyflemen as Heavy slots. So, that's still 2 slots open for grenade abuse, which basically gives you a pair of squads that can take on anything, (even 'uberfied deathstars), and likely win.
Even wound allocation abused pallies w/libby fold when hit by the psycho + rad combo. At best they can shut down your 'winning flame' and/or hammerhand buffs, or else you really lay the beatdown on them!

Rads + psychos = game breaking. 25pts for the 2 of them is way too cheap, and even on a single wound IC, whatever you charge is very likely dead that turn. (killing the techmarine doesn't stop the grenades from working in that initial round!)
Just aim your 'debuff bomb' at the right target, and those 100pts easily pays for itself.

Molotovsoda wrote:mini war gaming dave once said: "if your the kind of person who wants friends, you won't play grey knights"

Tempting Sig material right there.

Experiment 626 wrote:

GreyHamster wrote:I'd rather spend Elite slots on units to help with AV and mass psycannon saturation. The other cost of a Techmarine is less Purifiers or Vendreads. Remember, Venerable is far better when you can wipe away stun/shake.

If you want Purifyers, 99% of the time you pay your 'Crowe Tax' and get them as scoring units. 1x Ven dread is all you need considering most GK lists tend towards at least a pair of regular psyflemen as Heavy slots. So, that's still 2 slots open for grenade abuse, which basically gives you a pair of squads that can take on anything, (even 'uberfied deathstars), and likely win.
Even wound allocation abused pallies w/libby fold when hit by the psycho + rad combo. At best they can shut down your 'winning flame' and/or hammerhand buffs, or else you really lay the beatdown on them!

Rads + psychos = game breaking. 25pts for the 2 of them is way too cheap, and even on a single wound IC, whatever you charge is very likely dead that turn. (killing the techmarine doesn't stop the grenades from working in that initial round!)
Just aim your 'debuff bomb' at the right target, and those 100pts easily pays for itself.

It only pays for itself assuing the opponent have a unique unit like termies to assault. The 100 plus pt techmarine hardly pays for itself vs orkz, nids, guard, ba assault marines, DCA, etc. Plus if you want a full squad of purifiers with the techmarine causes you to have to buy more expensive transports since theyre too big now for rhinos, etc. You want 10 man purifers in most cases to maximize their ability to take speacial weapons. Also using titles like winning flame, gamebreaking shows just internet hype.

Yes they're good but those titles just make new players think theyre better then they are and somehow instant victory. Techmarines benefit lists though that sport a vindicare or gunline approach since they improve the terrain not spending 100 pts for A combat.

They basically have a Dreadnaught that can shunt (30" move) around the battlefield.

So there's that....

Draigo wrote:
It only pays for itself assuing the opponent have a unique unit like termies to assault. The 100 plus pt techmarine hardly pays for itself vs orkz, nids, guard, ba assault marines, DCA, etc. Plus if you want a full squad of purifiers with the techmarine causes you to have to buy more expensive transports since theyre too big now for rhinos, etc. You want 10 man purifers in most cases to maximize their ability to take speacial weapons. Also using titles like winning flame, gamebreaking shows just internet hype.

You don't always want 10 men. MSU spam is a perfectly viable way to play a Purifyer army. Units of 5-6 in psybacks provides target saturation and forces your oppent to spread their shooting around. More targets means more chances for your opponent to make mistakes in their target selection.
MSU also means more metal bawkes on the table, and 5th ed is all about being able to abuse transports. You can even drop down to a few rhinos and thus be able to sit in your mobile bunker plunking away with your psycannons.

The 100pts techmarine certainly pays for himself no matter what target you're hitting! For example;
a) vs Ork Boyz, clensing flame = half the unit dead before combat begins. Techmarine makes the boyz T3 and still gives you access to hammerhand meaning you'll wound on 2's. The herp-derp grenades simply add in that element of overkill.

b) vs Tyranids, clensing flame again roughly halves the unit. Halberds mean that even 'stealers aren' the insane threat they normally are. The techmarine's grenades + ability to still gain hammerhand means outside of really crap dice, you smoke whatever you're fighting. Against, MC's or multi-wound gribblies, you can hammerhand + activate your force weapons + drop target's toughness for easier instant death goodness.

c) vs MEQ's, you already murder them with force weapons. The techmarine again just provides additional gimmicks that pretty much neuter any chance of your opponent fighting back.

d) vs DCA's, the psycho grenades means it's not quite an auto-lose for you! Sure the 'drop down to Ld2' roll won't do crap against this kind of target, but having the psychos means there's a chance to turn a complete disadvantage into a winnable senario.

Need I go on? The techmarine brings added utility and flexability for next to no cost and opens up combos you normally wouldn't have that make even a smaller squad into a real threat. For 100pts, that's a steal!

Draigo wrote:Yes they're good but those titles just make new players think theyre better then they are and somehow instant victory. Techmarines benefit lists though that sport a vindicare or gunline approach since they improve the terrain not spending 100 pts for A combat.

I honestly have yet to see a techmarine's unit lose a fight where the rad/psychos go off. They're one of the closest things you can get to a 'win-button' and they're stupidly cheap considering their overall effect.

I'd say that for GK's, the techmarine buffing a piece of terrain is the added benifit. You honestly take him because he is such a combat monster due to how he synergises with squads like Purifyers, termies, Pallies or assaulty Henchmen!
Stick him into a Strike squad and sure, he's an expensive 100pts to make them roughly effective. Slap him into a squad of termies though, and you'll murder pretty much anything in the game unless the dice are against you...

Emerett wrote:They basically have a Dreadnaught that can shunt (30" move) around the battlefield.

So there's that....

First, it's MC, not vehicle. It can be taken down with lasguns, if you brought enough. Basically S6 T6 4W terminator. Concentrated plasma-fire will bring it down fast, as it's practically impossible to get cover save for DK.
Second, shunt can be made only once per game, and no assault after shunt.
Third, the normal loadout of DK+Heavy Incinerator+Personal Teleporter costs 235 points, basically same as LR. If you add Nemesis Greatsword, cost is same as two normal SM Rifledreads or two GK Assault Cannon DCCW + psybolt dreads.

DK is actually one of the better balanced units in GK Codex. Rifledreads (to be exact, psybolt ammo for them) and purifier CC weapon options are obviously undercosted though.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Draigo wrote:
It only pays for itself assuing the opponent have a unique unit like termies to assault. The 100 plus pt techmarine hardly pays for itself vs orkz, nids, guard, ba assault marines, DCA, etc. Plus if you want a full squad of purifiers with the techmarine causes you to have to buy more expensive transports since theyre too big now for rhinos, etc. You want 10 man purifers in most cases to maximize their ability to take speacial weapons. Also using titles like winning flame, gamebreaking shows just internet hype.

You don't always want 10 men. MSU spam is a perfectly viable way to play a Purifyer army. Units of 5-6 in psybacks provides target saturation and forces your oppent to spread their shooting around. More targets means more chances for your opponent to make mistakes in their target selection.
MSU also means more metal bawkes on the table, and 5th ed is all about being able to abuse transports. You can even drop down to a few rhinos and thus be able to sit in your mobile bunker plunking away with your psycannons.

The 100pts techmarine certainly pays for himself no matter what target you're hitting! For example;
a) vs Ork Boyz, clensing flame = half the unit dead before combat begins. Techmarine makes the boyz T3 and still gives you access to hammerhand meaning you'll wound on 2's. The herp-derp grenades simply add in that element of overkill.

b) vs Tyranids, clensing flame again roughly halves the unit. Halberds mean that even 'stealers aren' the insane threat they normally are. The techmarine's grenades + ability to still gain hammerhand means outside of really crap dice, you smoke whatever you're fighting. Against, MC's or multi-wound gribblies, you can hammerhand + activate your force weapons + drop target's toughness for easier instant death goodness.

c) vs MEQ's, you already murder them with force weapons. The techmarine again just provides additional gimmicks that pretty much neuter any chance of your opponent fighting back.

d) vs DCA's, the psycho grenades means it's not quite an auto-lose for you! Sure the 'drop down to Ld2' roll won't do crap against this kind of target, but having the psychos means there's a chance to turn a complete disadvantage into a winnable senario.

Need I go on? The techmarine brings added utility and flexability for next to no cost and opens up combos you normally wouldn't have that make even a smaller squad into a real threat. For 100pts, that's a steal!

Draigo wrote:Yes they're good but those titles just make new players think theyre better then they are and somehow instant victory. Techmarines benefit lists though that sport a vindicare or gunline approach since they improve the terrain not spending 100 pts for A combat.

I honestly have yet to see a techmarine's unit lose a fight where the rad/psychos go off. They're one of the closest things you can get to a 'win-button' and they're stupidly cheap considering their overall effect.

I'd say that for GK's, the techmarine buffing a piece of terrain is the added benifit. You honestly take him because he is such a combat monster due to how he synergises with squads like Purifyers, termies, Pallies or assaulty Henchmen!
Stick him into a Strike squad and sure, he's an expensive 100pts to make them roughly effective. Slap him into a squad of termies though, and you'll murder pretty much anything in the game unless the dice are against you...

I can tell you've never played AS the gk because cf is not that awesome vs orks or tyranids espeacially for undersized squads. The halberds and such are nice though vs MEQ I agree espeacially pesky assualt marines with fnp who seem to refuse to die to shooting. lol DCA with Jacobus are one of the worst things to get into cc and you might need to grenades just to tie. But I'd prefer to just shooting them notwaste pts on the techmarine. Though he's hardly a combat monster since I can add them from a grandmaster and xenos inquisitor while saving pts since unless your playing a 2500 pt game the 300 on 3 tech marines is wasted. I could see 3 in a 2k purifier list or henchman thats running 3 DCA squads though. But it's not an auto include like say psyfleman.