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Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

But how can your ATs have a chance to charge the paladins?
They don't have fleet rule or something else, "they can charge the paladins" means the paladins can charge them last turn :(
The GK player should send Draigo himself to deal with those ATs, or simplly weaken the ATs with their storm bolters, psycannons then charge them.

apple1988218 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

But how can your ATs have a chance to charge the paladins?
They don't have fleet rule or something else, "they can charge the paladins" means the paladins can charge them last turn :(
The GK player should send Draigo himself to deal with those ATs, or simplly weaken the ATs with their storm bolters, psycannons then charge them.

I would assume they are in a raider so can get a charge.
Now to even have a chance to hit first they would furious charge and claws. This does not instant kill them and leaves them with a reasonable inv. save given they are cc and some assumptions on force weapons.
Else they have SS/TH and hit last.
Getting the charge and not being stormbolted is easy, winning the combat sounds the iffy part.

However, 3 vindis with potms, they rush within the 24'' before which only taking a few hits from psidreads, three templates instant deathing with 2+ to wound with only a 5+ inv save.

Grey Knights have the Termi game on lock imo.

Several things GKs have that heavily tilt most fights in their favor.

1. Grenades that break the game.
2. Psi powers that break the game.
3. Amazing 24" firepower that has great cohesion for a melee oriented army.
4. Heroes that augment really well for their points.
5. Amazing anti-kiting transports/capabilites

In straight up melee alone I'd put DW above them, but overall GK termi army > Other termi armies. Of course most of your success is heavily dependent on how good you are as a player.

I play Deathwing a lot, and if you are asking about tiered level of tabletop power, you need to rate the support elements to each of the armies. If you purposely limit yourself to only talking about terminators you miss the big picture.

Deathwing has Ravenwing support, which is good but overcosted. Can mix shooting with assault termies, which is nifty, but not as amazing as more specialized options. No real psychic defense.

Loganwing has longfang/runepriest support, which is super cheap and combos well with Logan. You also get wolfscouts, and can mix in power armor to keep costs down... as mentioned. Great psychic defense.

Lustwing/Wrathwing/Changewing is backed by lash and oblits, not terrible but showing their age. You also need scoring units still. No psychic defense.

Bloodwing has armywide access to feel no pain and furious charge, with good support from fast vees/discounted land raiders. The libby also has good support powers, as does the chaplain, for the big 10 man squads. Decent psychic defense.

Blackwing has preferred enemy, tank hunting, and cheap missile speeders. Probably the strongest ranged firepower overall, though also the most fragile. No psychic defense.

Shrikewing gets infiltrating, fleeting squads of 10 terminators, but only 1 squad can infiltrate. Decent psychic defense.

Finally we have Draigowing, which gets great support from dreads and purifiers, while having the second shootiest termies. The second wound, psychic powers, ws5, and weapon options also set these termies above others, when combined with a grenade INQ to make the squad stubborn and have a chance to roll an auto-win grenade result. Good psychic defense versus powers that target the unit, no psychic defense otherwise unless you sacrifice stubborn.

All in all, Dragiowing seems to have the most secondary bonuses going for them, making them my favorite choice for a termie heavy force.

Deathwing for sure as they have one more GT's than the other termie lists.


And we don't need the slur eh ? Thanks. Reds8n

I really like the idea of a Black Templar terminator army.
With two HQs and their little bodyguards, you can have 5 x 5 terminator squads with dubble CML and tankhunter.
Add 2 or 3 5man lascannon power armour troops, for claming and added fire support, and some extra cheap landspeeders and you have a really nice army.

There is also some dangerus "normal" armies WITH terminators.
My friend just made a C:SM army with 10 TH/SS termies combatsquaded. Two Pod (with bacon) dreads with MMelta. One extra pod with some Tacticals. Vulcan and some more Tacticals.
The idea is to Droppod assault the two dreads in turn one, TL MMelta some tanks. Then the Terminators and the last pod deepstrikes within the the bacons.

It is not really a pure terminator army, but the main components are Terminators and Dreads.
Also, I want to point out the force multiplyer Vulcan can give to a Terminator army with melta support.

I have seen a nasty unit containing Vulkan, 10 TH/SS termies with shrike infiltrate...sigh that hurt.

Joe Mama wrote:

rubicant99 wrote:I have a question; iirc the wording of Logans rules is 'counts as troops' which I interpret as wolf guard are still taken in elite slots

Count as troops means they are troops for that game, in every way troops are troops. They take troop slots, and no other kind of slot, can take objectives, etc;


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Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times.

Doing it several times doesn't matter at all, you'd need to figure out the odds of it happening any given time.

Ok so what 5-6 paladins w/ 3 halberd, a narthecium, hammer, and falcions or maybe a banner. So BT charge because the use their LRC. Now they are 7 Assault termis w/ 5 LC and 2 TH/SS with an EC and FC. (A rather standard loadout) Now the halberd swing 6 times hitting 4 woulnding 2. I put them on the hammers and I should make both saves. Now my LC swing. Thats 4 attacks each (2 base + 1 for charging and 1 for two LC) So 20 swings. 10 hits then reroll for PE getting 15 hits. Now roll to wound needing 3s due to FC. So 10 wounds and then about 3 more from LC (I'm rounding here everything else is convienently whole numbers) Thats 13 PW wounds. So 2 dead paladins (what GK player will take the halberds so lets say medic and falcion. So then the EC swings with 4 attacks. He hits twice and picks up the third on PE. Now he needs twos to wound so he should get them all. So one more should fall we'll say a halberd. Now the hammers go at it I get 6 attacks, 4.5 hits after rerolls and all wounds. So another 2 dead. While I at worst he IDs my EC netting him 2 wounds or at worst being saved on a SS. So he has lost 10 wounds to at best my 2 lost wounds...I like my odds.

labmouse42 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

You bring up a good point. In a tournament there might be a bad matchup for the paladin army.
Another example of a possible bad matchup would be 12 eldar grav tanks which tank shock the paladin off the board.

Here is the thing though, BT and Eldar are not common armies to be played. In fact the top teir right now are SW, IG, GK and Necrons. You might get the bad matchup on round 1, and if you do thats just bad luck -- much like rolling a 1 for that critical armor save.

Once you get past that first round, you will see less and less middle teir armies. Sure, the occasional Tau player might make it to the top teir because they had a streak of grey knights they played, but that's not all that common. Your more likely to run into the big 4 mentioned above.

I find this same problem with my Mech'dar. That list is quite competitive vs many armies, and does well vs IG -- but if I hit some Necron or SW players I can easily get knocked into middle table obscurity. If I get really lucky and get 5 IG/GK players in a row, then I have a decent chance of placing. The problem is thats like flipping a coin and hoping you get heads every time.

As the title of the thread is 'for competitive play', we must assume that the poster wants something that is going to win tournaments. If were looking for a 'beat this unit' thread, its completely different

I would hardly consider necrons a top tier codex when compared with DE. Yes they are not played that much but the codex is strong and almost unbeatable in the right hands. Now I fail to see how BT struggle with most armies. Sure a mech guard list could cause problems but with decent amount of TH things and speeders we should be fine.


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apple1988218 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

But how can your ATs have a chance to charge the paladins?
They don't have fleet rule or something else, "they can charge the paladins" means the paladins can charge them last turn :(
The GK player should send Draigo himself to deal with those ATs, or simplly weaken the ATs with their storm bolters, psycannons then charge them.

Umm...Land Raiders. I'm pretty sure I can field a bunch of them. It really isn't that easy for most GK players to deal with the LR, the shooty termis, the ven dread, the shooty marines w/ LC and PG, and the speeders.

MFletch wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

I would assume they are in a raider so can get a charge.

If they are in a Raider they pay a crap ton of points for their ride, thus they are no longer significantly less, but actually many more points.

Akroma06 wrote:Ok so what 5-6 paladins w/ 3 halberd, a narthecium, hammer, and falcions or maybe a banner. So BT charge because the use their LRC. Now they are 7 Assault termis w/ 5 LC and 2 TH/SS with an EC and FC. (A rather standard loadout) Now the halberd swing 6 times hitting 4 woulnding 2. I put them on the hammers and I should make both saves. Now my LC swing. Thats 4 attacks each (2 base + 1 for charging and 1 for two LC) So 20 swings. 10 hits then reroll for PE getting 15 hits. Now roll to wound needing 3s due to FC. So 10 wounds and then about 3 more from LC (I'm rounding here everything else is convienently whole numbers) Thats 13 PW wounds. So 2 dead paladins (what GK player will take the halberds so lets say medic and falcion. So then the EC swings with 4 attacks. He hits twice and picks up the third on PE. Now he needs twos to wound so he should get them all. So one more should fall we'll say a halberd. Now the hammers go at it I get 6 attacks, 4.5 hits after rerolls and all wounds. So another 2 dead. While I at worst he IDs my EC netting him 2 wounds or at worst being saved on a SS. So he has lost 10 wounds to at best my 2 lost wounds...I like my odds.

That's what you call the above, a description of your odds? Ok, if you say so. Couple questions. You said your BT were cheaper. Now you are demanding they ride in an expensive vehicle to get the charge. Do you care to update your previous statement on cost? Also, why the heck would any GK player have the loadout you gave the the 5-6 man squad. A banner and FNP for a small squad? Very unlikely in a competetive setting. Also, I see that your numbers are extremely rough, and also curiously missing things like the presence of hammerhand or of GK's fancy grenades (considering the decent chance an HQ would be around). This is why people devote longer posts (or even whole threads) and more time and care, to this kind of analysis. Between rounding issues, dubious assumptions, omissions of common abilities which could affect CC, not considering the chance of not getting the charge, your 'analysis' isn't very helpful. But at least you tried, I will give you that. The greatest crime here though is conveniently avoiding a discussion on points cost. Obviously a Land Raider bumps up the cost of the squad a great deal, as its transprot abilities are mostly what you are buying it for.

What's wrong with doing a list like this?

I think it should hold it's own vs almost any comp. list out there.

HQ: 545 points
Logan Grimnar(275)
Njal Stormcaller in Termie(270)

Elites: 190 points
2x Lone Wolf with Terminator armour, SS/CF, 2 wolves(95)

Troops: 1035 points
4x 5 Terminators with CML, chainfist (210)
5 Terminators with CML(195)


Heavy Support: 230 points
2x 5 Long Fangs with 4 Missile Launcher(115)

2000 points on the nose!

Why do people bring up "broken" grenades for gk. If they're running a Draigowing unless they sacrifice the Libby for grandmaster or xenos inquisitor theyre won't have psychotroke or rad grenades. lol If they buy fire support and other troops that don't completely blow they can't afford a techmarine. So psy outs wont hurt any of the other termies since they aren't psykers. lol

As far as the comments gettin testy by the bt player saying hes using a lr.. Um that dude pays for itself if he can get the charges and wipe out a squad of 10 pallys with minimal losses. lol

After the 10 pallys draigo and the libby go down thats half the gk players army.

Shooty BT in the hands of a good player is brutal. Im just speaking from exp as a person who plays GK all the tim and has had the same cc people are discussing half a dozen times in tourneys.

The grenade INQ also provides stubborn. So not only do the grenades have a chance to beat your charging unit BY THEMSELVES, but if you do lose combat with a bad grenade roll you are still testing on LD 10. Plus, the idea of paladins is one of critical mass. You get enough of a force concentration to make any offensive push that is not at least as concentrated by the enemy fall flat on its face.

A better example of BT versus GK would be 10 pallys, 4 halberds 3 sword (or 2 sword and banner) 3 hammer, plus grenade INQ and Draigo. 900+ points, that is in your face and killing something every turn with shooting alone, unless you only run Land Raiders--then it takes out a raider every other turn.

Now you swing with a full squad of guys, probably with the +1 attack banner, and a few mastercrafted rerolls. Any BT lightning claws do zero casualties until you deal 11 wounds, requiring at least 3 Lclaws to live past the 8-12 halberd swings. Hammer wounds go onto already wounded models, if any live past Draigo and the swords. Assuming you get to attack at all, depending on the grenade result rolled.

Draigo wrote:Why do people bring up "broken" grenades for gk. If they're running a Draigowing unless they sacrifice the Libby for grandmaster or xenos inquisitor theyre won't have psychotroke or rad grenades. lol If they buy fire support and other troops that don't completely blow they can't afford a techmarine. So psy outs wont hurt any of the other termies since they aren't psykers. lol

Because a Techmarine is a horribad investment and should never be take----... oh, wait.

Grenade inquisitors are cheap, and/or a person can do a low-ish point list with a Grand Master and a Paladin blob and use Grand Strategy to make them troops. It would be silly to ignore those grenades as they can and do appear.

Draigo wrote:As far as the comments gettin testy by the bt player saying hes using a lr.. Um that dude pays for itself if he can get the charges and wipe out a squad of 10 pallys with minimal losses. lol

Thank you for taking the time to use proper spelling and punctuation. That coupled with your excellent reading comprehension makes it a pleasure to read your posts. Ok, but seriously now, if someone states that their unit is cheaper, but neglects to tell everyone of their hugely expensive ride, that is silly and misleading. The ride needs to be inluded in the discussion of costs.

rigeld2 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Why do people bring up "broken" grenades for gk. If they're running a Draigowing unless they sacrifice the Libby for grandmaster or xenos inquisitor theyre won't have psychotroke or rad grenades. lol If they buy fire support and other troops that don't completely blow they can't afford a techmarine. So psy outs wont hurt any of the other termies since they aren't psykers. lol

Because a Techmarine is a horribad investment and should never be take----... oh, wait.

They are depending on your pt total since the main pt was to take a terminator army.


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Joe Mama wrote:Grenade inquisitors are cheap, and/or a person can do a low-ish point list with a Grand Master and a Paladin blob and use Grand Strategy to make them troops. It would be silly to ignore those grenades as they can and do appear.

Draigo wrote:As far as the comments gettin testy by the bt player saying hes using a lr.. Um that dude pays for itself if he can get the charges and wipe out a squad of 10 pallys with minimal losses. lol

Thank you for taking the time to use proper spelling and punctuation. That coupled with your excellent reading comprehension makes it a pleasure to read your posts. Ok, but seriously now, if someone states that their unit is cheaper, but neglects to tell everyone of their hugely expensive ride, that is silly and misleading. The ride needs to be inluded in the discussion of costs.

Always fun to see the grammar police in force. Somehow I don't think your use of the english language suddenly discounts anything said but if it helps you sleep at nite rock on. Yes maybe it should be mentioned but doesn't mean people should lose tact and decorum. These 40k threads are loaded with condescending "know it alls." It's no difference then you mocking my comprehension. You want your points followed then don't be a jack ass.

I have had experience with both forms for GK wings and I find drago wing to be far more effective.
I think it is the strongest choice.

So I myself run BlackWing, I love it, but it is for sure a ranged list, most BlackWing players only go for ranged due to our insanly cheap missile lists, I play a modified list at 1850 so i only have 4 squads of terminators but it works just fine because of my 3 las plas squads in rhinos, this entire list can camp up on one side of the field and just wait for the enemy to walk into the trap.

so here is my list.

HQ
castelan power weapon bolt pistol Melta-bomb Terminator command squad sword brethren (4) 2x cyclone missile launcher tank hunters 311
emperor's champion, 1 abhor 110

Troops
crusader squad, 6 las cannon plasma gun rhino 167
crusader squad, 6 las cannon plasma gun rhino 167
crusader squad, 5 las cannon plasma gun rhino (champ here) 151

Elites
terminator squad, 5 cyclone missile launchers tank hunters 265
terminator squad, 5 cyclone missile launchers tank hunters 265
terminator squad, 5 cyclone missile launchers tank hunters 265

Fast Attack
land speeder typhoon, 1 typhoon missile launcher 70
land speeder typhoon, 1 typhoon missile launcher 70

Points Summary:
HQ: 421
Troops: 485
Elites: 795
Fast Attack: 140
Total: 1841

with the inability to take terminators as troops I have used our min-maxing ability with our crusader squads to make some nasty mini-dev squads with the rhinos to benefit from the fire points of the rhino, this gives me cheap laz-backs and some objective grabbing units if i really need them.

Draigo wrote:Why do people bring up "broken" grenades for gk. If they're running a Draigowing unless they sacrifice the Libby for grandmaster or xenos inquisitor theyre won't have psychotroke or rad grenades. lol If they buy fire support and other troops that don't completely blow they can't afford a techmarine. So psy outs wont hurt any of the other termies since they aren't psykers. lol

As far as the comments gettin testy by the bt player saying hes using a lr.. Um that dude pays for itself if he can get the charges and wipe out a squad of 10 pallys with minimal losses. lol

After the 10 pallys draigo and the libby go down thats half the gk players army.

Shooty BT in the hands of a good player is brutal. Im just speaking from exp as a person who plays GK all the tim and has had the same cc people are discussing half a dozen times in tourneys.

First off I'm not testy...I don't like it when people tell me that what I've done in games isn't statistical, or shouldn't happen. Now for everyone claiming that the LRC makes a difference, it hasn't to date. With the LRC, the veteran skills. 7 BT assault termis comes to 566 points, which isn't even a third of a standard army for my CC BT. Now how much does a squad of 6 paladins cost with no upgrades? Not counting halberds, apothecary, hammers, etc.

Joe in none of my calculations did I account for my LRC shooting. If you want to play the game of positioning fine my assumption was that I charged them to make use of the veteran skill if people want me to redo the points with counter attack fine, but that is not my experience which is all I can pull from. Also with the numbers I did were averages, which granted I rounded at times to reflect odds fine. None of that was purely how my games have gone. If you would like me to show you a full analysis it would be inherently flawed as is the problem with all mathhammer since the dice rolls need to approach infinity to have an accurate representation of odds. Now how many games go to infinity? My point was rough rounding although it is easy to do 6 attacks I need 3s. Thats 2 out of every 3 attacks that hit...so 4 out of 6. How does hammerhand really effect things? You may kill one hammer? So I loose 3 attacks...that aren't affected until later. Also since when did I say that these were competative games. If you want to start throwing in fancy grenades thats fine but you need HQs and then I get HQs so we may as just well play a game then. Also would you care to show me which "common" abilities I left out?

I'm actually wondering myself about Termie armies...I think I'd like to stick to vanilla Marines, so I can make my own colour scheme and possibly use some charectors.
Plus two full tactical squads are a solid bedrock. Other than that I'm not sure though.
Deep-Striking is too risky without teleport homers, which means sticking them on something fragile, either scouts or speeders.
I like Land Raiders, but they're expensive.

Akroma06 wrote:7 BT assault termis comes to 566 points, which isn't even a third of a standard army for my CC BT. Now how much does a squad of 6 paladins cost with no upgrades? Not counting halberds, apothecary, hammers, etc.

Halberds and hammers costing extra? Not knowing the base cost of Paladins? Oh dear, you don't know the GK codex at all do you? Funny you are throwing down authoritative, almost gloating statements about the outcome of two armies matching up, when you seem to know very little about one of them.

Did I claim to be a GK player? Please show me where I did. I will wait.

Done?

Ok now that that is out of the way I wasn't asking for a realistic value, I was speaking rehtorically. He asked for a Termi army and BT do termis very well with the ability to take veteran skills on their terminators. A couple of las plas squads is the only thing not a terminator in some of the BT lists.

And for the 100th time I am stating my experience with the two ARMIES going head to head and doing rough averages.

My point is that gloating about a specific battle situation, without talking about point values at all, is silly, if we are discussing army competitiveness. You need to know how much things cost, in order to declare things better than other things (otherwise you could be saying 1000 poins of X is better than 600 of Y, which is useless). Why you twisted this around and made a completely false statement, a lie, about what I said, is beyond me. Did I claim you needed to be a GK player? No, of course not. I only claimed point values are important in a discussion like this. In addition to you seemingly getting angry that I brought up point values, it seems you can't be bothered to honestly interpret my words, so I am done with you.

Akroma06 wrote: 7 BT assault termis comes to 566 points, which isn't even a third of a standard army for my CC BT. Now how much does a squad of 6 paladins cost with no upgrades? Not counting halberds, apothecary, hammers, etc.

330. Hammers and Halberds are free...

Ok see now that is a polite response. Thank you Radical.

I was also including the apothecary etc and using the points that the GK player told me his squad cost (something in the ballpark of 600). So if I'm mistaken sorry, but I still favor the match up if BT get the charge. Even without FC I still think they would win (no transport) but they would suffer more casualties.

Akroma06 wrote:Ok see now that is a polite response. Thank you Radical.

I was also including the apothecary etc and using the points that the GK player told me his squad cost (something in the ballpark of 600). So if I'm mistaken sorry, but I still favor the match up if BT get the charge. Even without FC I still think they would win (no transport) but they would suffer more casualties.

You are not instant killing anyone and they have weird inv. saves in cc. Without FC you are just like normal termies from any other codex, ok fearless so most like deathwing who happen to have let off a few missiles to before it got to this state of affairs.

Can you not just claim you have shot a tonne of kraks at the paladins instant killing a good number but this is after you marched up potms vindis and pie plated them? I really think Draigo can be defeated by Black Templars please forward a good case.

Judging termies by putting them against each other is a really bad test. In terms of competitiveness it is the whole army that needs to be considered.
I still vote Deathwing though as psidreads are not really enough longrange fire power and the more common lists have something to deal with wound allocation paladins, though I am not saying it will not be tough.

Deathwing are my favourite (Yes, I'm biased. Problem?) as they are

1) Fearless
2) Able to take free TH/SS
3) Awesome
4) Able to access more firepower
5) Work brilliantly with Ravenwing (Scout up or outflank, then use teleport homers to bring in Termies safely)
6) Awesome
7) Have a special version of "Drop Pod Assault" so you can bring in about 3 squads on the first turn in a 2000pt list.
8) Cheaper than other armies to some extent, as in I can fit 15 Deathwingplus 3 Ravenwing, and Belial, into 1000pts

Deathwing are single build, but competitive. Belial is a brilliant HQ given his infinitesimal cost (less than half that of Draigo) and consequently gives you more points to buy terminators.

Spamming th/ss/cml might not be the most attractive thing, but it makes them indifferent to cover and very resilient in combat while contributing something in the shooting phase.

We'll see how they look when the new Dark Angels codex comes out.