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What's the best Terminator troops army for competitive play? What makes this "wing" better than the other ones? Sample army lists? What's your Tournament exp. with the army.....?


Deathwing?

Loganwing?

GK Terminator Wing?

Draigowing?


thanks in advance!!

Gk's is AFAIK the only way to play them as troops, but are you looking for pure termies no transports or just multiple termie units in a list? what size lists do you want?

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Gk's is AFAIK the only way to play them as troops

SW Codex Logan Grimnar makes an elite unit troops - and that unit can take terminator armor
DA Codex Belial makes terminator squads into troops.

Logan allows wolf guard as troops which you can put into terminator armour.

The Master of the Deathwing allows deathwing terminator squads to count as troops.

1850/2000 point competitive tournament lists and any exp. you have with the list.

I'd argue either GK or Wolves are the strongest choice. While GK can field Terminators as troops any time, adding Draigo to replace them with Paladins makes for an extremely shooty brick that is very tough to shift with shooting, and death to assault for most armies.

Wolves compete by being able to mix in models in power armor with their Terminators for versatility, and to keep costs down.

Deathwing because you can run an army full of thunderhammer guys backed up by cyclone missile launchers, and they're all scoring. People usually run a few land speeder typhoons for more missiles. The army is pretty limited tactically but it is intimidating fighitng that many terminators.

Does " Terminator troops army " means that you can only take terminators as your troop?

Since Draigowing or Semi-Draigowing will have some power armour units or henchmen to support them, I'm not sure whether these lists are " Terminator troops army " or not.

DEATHWING!

at 1850 you can run 25 terms with Th/ss and 5 cml along with apothecary. add in two predators and 3 landspeeders....perfect

GK can't out assault you because they will be pulverised coming across the board (frags instead of kraks)
WG much more expensive

It does have flaws if you deploy incorrectly but it is quite good just don't make my mistake of running right at the grey knights

I would say deathwing due to the access to cml, ss, etc. The thing that hurts gk ones is they wont have as much firepower past 24 in unless the game is higher pts totals.

I'd have to say Deathwing. if you want mostly terminators. Friend of mine DevianId does pretty well in GTs with Deathwing. All th/ss with fearless is pretty big. The ability to take scouting bikes (only able to scout 12) with melta and homing beacons to deepstrike your termies in with is good. Typhoon Speeders or a land raider are nice additions as well.

With 6th ed on the horizon the wound allocation that makes Draigowing so good might get nerfed. The Draigo wings I see don't really have that many termies typically have the 10 paladins with draigo and then 1 or 2 solodins plus other stuff like psyriflemen dreads and purifiers. Draigo wing probably is the cheapest to build.

I ran a mixed Wolves list with Logan + wg termies + mech hunters, scouts and fangs at hardboys rounds 1 and 2 did pretty well with it actually beat deathwing with it as logan with the +1 attack on a unit of termies is pretty awesome. Again this works best as a mixed list with at most 1 unit of 10 termies and even then you might only want 2 termies for cyclones with the rest power armor to save points.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Wolves compete by being able to mix in models in power armor with their Terminators for versatility, and to keep costs down.

That would be a power armored army, with some terminators in it. A Space Wolves force with all terminators or mostly terminators, would be outclassed by other options.

For pure terminators, Deathwing is the best option because you will be able to mix in storm shields and shooting beyond 24". Deathwing Assault gives you the potential to control your deepstriking better, and Fearless means you're immune to tank shocks. Grey Knight terminators of both types suffer from not having anything better than a 5++ against shooting, and from being only Ld9 on their own and thus realistically something you could tankshock off the board. Wolf Guard doesn't work as pure terminators.

Chaos can fit 20 Tzeench Terminators with a mix of twin claws, fist, and combi-plasma, 2 lash terminator sorcerers, 9 obliterators, and two 5 man CSM in 2000 points.

Terminator sorcerer, mark of slaanesh, lash of submission
Terminator sorcerer, mark of slaanesh, lash of submission
7x terminators 3x twin claws, chain fist, 3x combi-plasma, mark of tzeench
7x terminators 3x twin claws, chain fist, 3x combi-plasma, mark of tzeench
6x terminators 2x twin claws, chain fist, 3x combi-plasma, mark of tzeench
3x obliterators
3x obliterators
3x obliterators
5x chaos space marines
5x chaos space marines

Thats 31 terminators with a lot of heavy firepower (and lash!), and 10 guys you have to hide in reserve or behind a rock all game.

In that list I think you're better off giving at least one of those squads an icon of slaanesh so they have I5, then using the other unit/s to give them 4+ cover from enemy shooting. It's cheaper, too, so you can afford some more combis or other upgrades.

Mannahnin wrote:In that list I think you're better off giving at least one of those squads an icon of slaanesh so they have I5, then using the other unit/s to give them 4+ cover from enemy shooting. It's cheaper, too, so you can afford some more combis or other upgrades.

Wouldn't help at all vs TH/SS termis though.

I run Deathwing...alot

An army with 6 squads TH/SS Termies with a CML per squad is simply amazing. Making one of those squads FNP is even better. Adding 3 Typhhons with MMs is just icing on the cake.

At 1850 I have 12 S8 shots from the termies and another 9 S8 shots (3 of them MM) from the speeders. For an army that is full of CC goodness from 6 squads of TH/SS termies, adding 21 S8 shots a turn is just fantastic; the fact that 18 of those shots can be small blast frags makes their utility even better

DWA is pretty nasty


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:Chaos can fit 20 Tzeench Terminators with a mix of twin claws, fist, and combi-plasma, 2 lash terminator sorcerers, 9 obliterators, and two 5 man CSM in 2000 points.

Terminator sorcerer, mark of slaanesh, lash of submission
Terminator sorcerer, mark of slaanesh, lash of submission
7x terminators 3x twin claws, chain fist, 3x combi-plasma, mark of tzeench
7x terminators 3x twin claws, chain fist, 3x combi-plasma, mark of tzeench
6x terminators 2x twin claws, chain fist, 3x combi-plasma, mark of tzeench
3x obliterators
3x obliterators
3x obliterators
5x chaos space marines
5x chaos space marines

Thats 31 terminators with a lot of heavy firepower (and lash!), and 10 guys you have to hide in reserve or behind a rock all game.

That is aweful lol dont ever play that.

Each offers different advantages...

DW - Cheap TH/SS. Cheap typhoons speeders.
Weakness - crappy librarians

Loganwing- cheap termies with betterfirepower. Combiweapon access. Nasty rune priest. Cheap cheap long fangs ( esp. good with Logan attached)
Weakness- High cost to Logan but probably worthit.

Draigo wing-- 2 wound paladins, stupid psyc grenades.

Weakness - high cost means low troop total.


Personally, I like Loganwing. It can go missle crazy and maintains a lot of firepower with all the stormbolters. Wolf claws are great with choosing reroll hits or wounds. Finally the stupidity of free yes free counterattack. So even if you get outmanuevered and assaulted you still get all your attacks with +1 bonus... Ask yourself which is going to screw up an opponent more JOTW, 20 S4 shooting attacks plus 30 S4 rerollable hits or
a deathwing ... 20 S8 attacks and 3++ invulnerable save.

I have a question; iirc the wording of Logans rules is 'counts as troops' which I interpret as wolf guard are still taken in elite slots, but count as troops on the table. Where as Belails rule is 'taken as troops' which means they come from the troops slot. Am I understanding this right as 6 squads of terms is better than 3!

I think those are equivalent phrases. Usually if they want something to stay in its FOC slot they say "may hold objectives" or something like that. Stern guard with Kantor, for instance, hold objectives but do not occupy troop slots in the FOC.

Deathwing or draigowing are the best tda armies

While you can run pure terminaotr lists with GK, SW, and DA. I don't think that any of them are the best for competitve play. DA have one build and SW will be lacking elsewhere. Personally I like Black Templar Terminators. If you want to go shooty then run 5 man squads with 2 Cyclones and Tank Hunters. If you want close combat then run 7 terminators (5 LC 2 TH/SS) in a crusader or 10 man squads of TH/SS. Give either squad Furious Charge and then take Accept any Challenge, no matter the odds for army wide prefered enemy. So unless your GK paladins are running nothing but halbereds I swing before you rerolling to hit, then I need 3s to wound you with the LCs rerolling fails. Then I'm S9 for dreads and enemy ICs. Oh and if you run the shooty guys in a command squad then you can shoot at enemy infiltrators if they get to close.

I think Deathwing is the best rounded of the Teq armies with its access to variety of weapons and SS.

Draigowing is probably the strongest because GK are just OP and paladins rock in assault but the army has more weaknesses and costs more.

Draigowing has a number of strong advantages. While the other builds are good -- DA termie armies can be very tough -- Draigowing pulls ahead in today's meta for a number of reasons.

Kill Points
It can be very low in kill points, giving as low as 5 KPs in a 2000 point game. This makes it nearly impossible to beat in those games. That means in 1/3 of the games you go to, you pretty much have a win.

Shifting
The units can be extremely hard to shift. When you hear people saying the best chance of success is to tank shock you, then your in a good position to be in!

This is because you can take advantage of wound allocation to diversify the wounds you take, making it much harder to wound the models. Since Draigo has eternal warrior, when there is a shot that will insta-kill a paladin, take the wound on him, which gives you some ablative wounds before you have to worry about losing models.

FirePower
With relentless psycannons they have a good amount of firepower as well. While they are not on the same scale as a guard army, its still enough to kill a few transports.

To assist the draigowing army, they can also take venerable psy-dreads, which can be extremely hard (but not impossible) to kill. They also each have the ability to give 4 STR 8 hits to any target on the board, which is very powerful for taking down transports. Two or three of those added to a draigowing army can be very difficult to deal with.

Strategy
Draigowing armies are not there to just table the enemy, they are there to blob over objectives and basically stick around and be hard to kill.

This is not a strategy new players easily understand, as its easy to get winning confused with killing enemy models. Killing models is all well and good, but if your not racking up KPs or objectives, your not winning the game.

But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

rubicant99 wrote:I have a question; iirc the wording of Logans rules is 'counts as troops' which I interpret as wolf guard are still taken in elite slots

Count as troops means they are troops for that game, in every way troops are troops. They take troop slots, and no other kind of slot, can take objectives, etc;


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Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times.

Doing it several times doesn't matter at all, you'd need to figure out the odds of it happening any given time.

I'd argue Deathwing for all the reasons stated above.

However, I gotta say that 30 CSM Termi's w/ MoT with a combo of LC's and CF's led by 2 Sorcerer's also with MoT backed up by 9 Obliterators and some Plague Marines is pretty damn scary to be facing (even if it's not truly a Termi army)

Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

You bring up a good point. In a tournament there might be a bad matchup for the paladin army.
Another example of a possible bad matchup would be 12 eldar grav tanks which tank shock the paladin off the board.

Here is the thing though, BT and Eldar are not common armies to be played. In fact the top teir right now are SW, IG, GK and Necrons. You might get the bad matchup on round 1, and if you do thats just bad luck -- much like rolling a 1 for that critical armor save.

Once you get past that first round, you will see less and less middle teir armies. Sure, the occasional Tau player might make it to the top teir because they had a streak of grey knights they played, but that's not all that common. Your more likely to run into the big 4 mentioned above.

I find this same problem with my Mech'dar. That list is quite competitive vs many armies, and does well vs IG -- but if I hit some Necron or SW players I can easily get knocked into middle table obscurity. If I get really lucky and get 5 IG/GK players in a row, then I have a decent chance of placing. The problem is thats like flipping a coin and hoping you get heads every time.

As the title of the thread is 'for competitive play', we must assume that the poster wants something that is going to win tournaments. If were looking for a 'beat this unit' thread, its completely different

I agree completely with labmouse. The poster wants a terminator army for competative play. Driagowing is hands down the best KP denial thier is imo.

Driagowing excells at MULTIPLE OBJECTIVE GAMES where kill points are always one of them. They go into the match with a lead in kp and only have to play the contest game. Heck most tie breakers for games in GTs are VPs. Guess what else Driagowing is good at?

All this is being covered very well on the 11th Company's podcast and on Neil's blog. Check it out.

http://11thcompany.blogspot.com/

Joe Mama wrote:[
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times.

Doing it several times doesn't matter at all, you'd need to figure out the odds of it happening any given time.

Give me a squad of grots and ill take down your draigostar. It might take many many many attempts but one round they will make it.


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labmouse42 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:But that's just it being charged by a BT assault terminator squad will kill a squad of paladins. I've done it several times. That and I pay significantly less than GK do for paladins.

You bring up a good point. In a tournament there might be a bad matchup for the paladin army.
Another example of a possible bad matchup would be 12 eldar grav tanks which tank shock the paladin off the board.

Here is the thing though, BT and Eldar are not common armies to be played. In fact the top teir right now are SW, IG, GK and Necrons. You might get the bad matchup on round 1, and if you do thats just bad luck -- much like rolling a 1 for that critical armor save.

Once you get past that first round, you will see less and less middle teir armies. Sure, the occasional Tau player might make it to the top teir because they had a streak of grey knights they played, but that's not all that common. Your more likely to run into the big 4 mentioned above.

I find this same problem with my Mech'dar. That list is quite competitive vs many armies, and does well vs IG -- but if I hit some Necron or SW players I can easily get knocked into middle table obscurity. If I get really lucky and get 5 IG/GK players in a row, then I have a decent chance of placing. The problem is thats like flipping a coin and hoping you get heads every time.

As the title of the thread is 'for competitive play', we must assume that the poster wants something that is going to win tournaments. If were looking for a 'beat this unit' thread, its completely different

DE are a fairly common tourney army that can do well against SW, Necrons, and GK(well some). The lose pretty horribly to mechdar and mechIG. With the numbers of DE played you will probably see some at the higher levels, as their first few matches weren't mechspam.

Last time I went to a tourney I cursed my luck. My DE faced 3 straight DE and then a SW.