Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pretty easily: no waagh
6 killa kans vs 2 wound Ghaz = typically dead Ghaz without a waggh.


well, you need ghazgul protected enough so he has 4 wounds instead of 2, personally, i would not have ghazgul but have 2 mega armoured warbosses with cybork and a boss pole, both of them attached to one squad is nearly as effective as ghazgul, add the stats of two warbosses together and you get

ws bs s t w l a sv
10 4 10 10 6 8 8 2+ 2+

where as ghazgul and dok grotsnik is

ws bs s t w l a sv
11 4 9 10 7 7 9 4+ 2+

honestly, there isnt much difference

dakkadakka brad wrote:Pretty easily: no waagh
6 killa kans vs 2 wound Ghaz = typically dead Ghaz without a waggh.


well, you need ghazgul protected enough so he has 4 wounds instead of 2, personally, i would not have ghazgul but have 2 mega armoured warbosses with cybork and a boss pole, both of them attached to one squad is nearly as effective as ghazgul, add the stats of two warbosses together and you get

ws bs s t w l a sv
10 4 10 10 6 8 8 2+ 2+

where as ghazgul and dok grotsnik is

ws bs s t w l a sv
11 4 9 10 7 7 9 4+ 2+

honestly, there isnt much difference

it really doesnt work like that lol. T10

yeah i know but they put together a similar effect though

It would be better to do a comparison like this:

Add Quantitative scores (A, W)

Average Qualitative (WS, BS, S, etc.)

So, two Warbosses=
WS5 BS2 S5 T5 W6 I4 A8

And Ghaz/Dok have
WS5.5 BS2 S4.5 T5 W7 I3.5 A9

I was really just highlighting why I am not impressed by him. I admit, some armies will not do well against him, and hopefully the Ork player field him as taken time to assemble a proper body guard unit.

I think he really can provide quite the anvil to some unit, and really is a heavy hitter. Me personally, he's not my style, but i've used him myself with success. Best advice ~ test him out, see what works for you, don't chuck a idea aside just because a guy on the internet posed where he had success spiking Ghaz.

Would I have had the same success with Kans if Ghaz hadn't take 2 wounds? Likely not since i'd have been hitting on 5's with 6 attacks. The burna boys, I stand by that. Big squads of burnas can drop Ghaz if they get the jump on him like i did.

OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but the fact you can use Gaz's Waaagh at any point allows for some fun.

You can wait until your opponent has declared and moved assaults, then call the Waaagh. Your engaged units instantly become fearless, and you can then move supporting units their full fleet range to join in later.

It's not the best overall use of a Waaagh, as you don't get to have the benefits through the opponent's whole turn. Nevertheless, if you have an opponent overreaching and overcommiting him/herself, it can turn the tables in an entertaining way.

TheHarleqwin wrote:

skycapt44 wrote:So then is should use a min 5 man squad with no upgrades other than snikrot just to get ghaz there.

Noooo, I always add two burnas to the squad.

It should have Ghaz, two plain kommandos, two burna kommandos, Snikrot.

Ok I like the sounds of this. How do you do the pts for this. You need minimum 5 boys in squad.
2 burna, 2 regular and snikrot. Snikrot is 85 pts, do I still need to pay the 10 pts for my fifth man of is that included in his cost IE. each burna guy is 25 pts, each regular guy is 10 pts, then add snikrot for 85 pts. Total should be 155 pts correct?

And any canny opponent will simply avoid him. He waddles around the battlefield in his clunky armour. So he either needs transport, or to be defending something.

Can he call his waaaaagh even from reserves?

skycapt44 wrote:Can he call his waaaaagh even from reserves?

Ghazzy's "Waaagh" replaces the army's Waaagh.

So, yes, you can call his special Waaagh while Ghazzy is in reserve. However, in my opinion... that's a waste.... unless your opponent doesnt need any STR10, 7 Attacks, 2++ Mr. Krump'n "I'm gonna KRUMP yo azz!".

Simply put, I'm a huge believer that the Snikrot's Ambush rule is the best deliver platform for Ghazzy. But... ymmv.

That combo has been VERY effective for me...

Regarding Calling Waagh on enemy turn:

Yeah... even though you might think this isn't always a strong play, it isn't that bad to call on the enemy turn... as long as you do it after the movement phase, maybe during combat, say like if you need the 2++ save to survive... I don't know... maybe a lot of killa kan attacks....

Opponent moves, charges, rolls attacks, wounds a lot... I'm going to die...wait wait, I'll call a waagh and get 2++ saves. The enemy has already moved so it's not like they can react to your next turn that is going to be 6" fleet moves and fearless. The only difference between calling a Waagh in your opponents combat phase and during your movement phase is.... that the enemy get's to sink in despair longer before you actually get to killin! No practical difference at all.

-Myst

skycapt44 wrote:
Ok I like the sounds of this. How do you do the pts for this. You need minimum 5 boys in squad.
2 burna, 2 regular and snikrot. Snikrot is 85 pts, do I still need to pay the 10 pts for my fifth man of is that included in his cost IE. each burna guy is 25 pts, each regular guy is 10 pts, then add snikrot for 85 pts. Total should be 155 pts correct?

I don't want to discuss points on the forum, because that breaks rules. But you've got the gist of it. You buy five basic kommandos, and everything else including Snikrot is an upgrade.

Grots R OP wrote:Yeah, I don't see 3 Kans killing thrakka unless he was already wounded and had his waagh down. He has eternal warrior which would prevent the DCCW id.

I am going to be running a list that has grots, thrakka, tons of boyz and kannons soon. I also have my trukk of mega nobs. I can't decided wether to slog him or put him in the trukk.

Jidmah you see to think he works best asaulting out of a vehicle, which is my gut, plus manz get BP then. Would be a good unit for multi assault, or has the option to split up. Slogging him w 30 shootas seems like a viable option as well. Opinions?

As he is S&P and loses move through cover when joining boyz, I would put him with sluggas, as you need to run anyways. But sure, that's viable. Thrakka, just like any warboss, should always be joined to boyz or burnaz, as they provide the most synergy for each other.

njpc wrote:Pretty easily: no waagh

No where do i reference instant killing him. Simply, he died to Killa Kans IE failed invulnerable saves. Its pretty easy to do, he's got wounds, but your going to be able to get through forcing 5+'s on charging killa kans with some luck. In my example above, he already had a 2 wounds. 6 killa kans vs 2 wound Ghaz = typically dead Ghaz without a waggh.

So, you kill him when you charge 1.5 times the points into a half-dead model which has already caused an entire army to fleet 6", was completely alone for some unknown reason, has probably killed another unit. Oh yeah, and all of those charging models have taken no losses at all before. That must be a really terrible model.

Besides, even six kanz on the charge would only cause 3 wounds to Ghazghkull on average, so an unwounded Ghaz would turn around and and take down half of them before dying, even without his Waagh!. And let's not talk about him getting the charge.

At this years colonial I took him down also.
Ghaz + 3 Mega Armor boys
vs
Burna Boyz & Warboss with Big Choppa.

My burna boyz & Warboss dispatched the Mega Armor boys, along with dropping Ghaz. In this example, volume of attacks. Mega armor boyz vs burna boyz is not good for Mega Armor. Add in extra burna boys fighting Ghaz, he still dies.

First of all, there are no mega armor boyz. Just mega armor nobz.
Second, burnaz boyz wound thrakka on 5+ and the warboss bounces of the 2+ armor. So if all 15 burnaz and the warboss hit thrakka, they would only cause 5 wounds to him, assuming no Waagh!. As you have to put models in base contact with those MANz, that's highly unlikely. On his Waagh, thrakka would kill your entire unit easily, as they would only cause two wounds to him over two rounds of combat.
Third, you are using the perfect counter-unit in the perfect scenario(they get the charge) against a terrible unit(Thrakka does not belong with MANz).
Fourth, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

If I found any unit of ork elite accompanied by a warboss on the board, that would be the first place thrakka's would be heading and where he would use his Waagh!. And you can bet on him getting the charge, barring tripple-ones for assault.

Ghaz is an excellent model. However, its all about that Waagh turn. You must Waggh during your turn. So write it down big and bold on your army roster or your going to leave him vulnerable. In my 2 examples the first the opponent had already burned his waagh. In the 2nd I caught the opponent before he waagh'd. When facing him, you can force the opponent to burn it by putting him in a bad position, then counter attacking with models who are well suited IE Burna boyz with high volumes of attacks. Lots of armies can dump lots of attacks on him easily and drop him fast.

Thrakkas Waagh! can be called at any time. You can not "catch" him before. If Thrakka was in the danger of dying by assault, I would call the Waagh! right away, just to make sure the killy unit that can actually take on a Warboss in Mega-Armor on Steroids ends up dead instead of victorious. I can still fleet everyone 6" on my next turn then. Anything that does not bring massed powerweapon attacks will have a hard time taking on thrakka even without his Waagh.

Every thing you brought as an argument is based on arbitrary assumptions and generally the person using Thrakka being completely incompetent as a general.
You know, kanz are terrible too if you run them behind your boyz. They are never in range to shoot anything, can't charge and just get picked off by rockets! /sarcasm

Jidmah, I think you need to stop already. I reference my opinions. They do not agree with yours. That is fine, you don't need to dissect my posts. Just because I put "mega armor boyz" doesn't mean anything. Just because my opponent didn't call a waagh when I charged him when he could of doesn't mean anything.

Everything I brought into the conversation was based on actual game play, with the examples highlight above at Grand Tournment level play. Just because you didn't like the result, doesn't mean it changes the fact of how things went.

And this is not a conversation about Killa Kans. Killa Kans are good at certain roles, which i'm not even getting into. This is a conversation about Ghaz, Not Kans. Remember what "you" would do is irrelevant to what happened in my games as I was not playing you. I also never reference running them "behind my boys."

Why did I charge Ghaz + Mega Armor Nobs with Burnas and my Warboss? Because the scenario was kill points and bonus points of killing HQ. I netted 2 KP's and extra bonus points for taking down HQ. That's called playing the scenario. I ensured my target was dead. Why did I charge him with Killa Kans? He had taken wounds AND again KP and scenario IE ensuring my goal is complete.

Did you even read my last post where I suggest trying him out?
You sure make a whole lot of assumptions about what I did in my games instead of simply reading the post.

njpc wrote:Jidmah, I think you need to stop already. I reference my opinions. They do not agree with yours. That is fine, you don't need to dissect my posts. Just because I put "mega armor boyz" doesn't mean anything. Just because my opponent didn't call a waagh when I charged him when he could of doesn't mean anything.

Look, if you don't like your posts discussed, post them on a personal blog and deny comments. However, a forum is by definition a place where everything is discussed, so you've gotta live with that.
You also explicitly said that you must use Thrakka's Waaagh! on your turn which is just plain wrong. Furthermore, you gave advice base on that wrong interpretation of the rules, so that does mean a lot.

Everything I brought into the conversation was based on actual game play, with the examples highlight above at Grand Tournment level play. Just because you didn't like the result, doesn't mean it changes the fact of how things went.

Judging from what your opponent did, I highly doubt that you were talking about grand tournament level. Even if you were, your results are completely irrelevant for any discussion on tactics, as they are pretty unlikely and thus can not be reproduced by anyone. I once hat the situation where a big mek ended up with a unit of gretchin and they took down a soulgrinder. Should I tell people that gretchin and big meks are a great way to take down soul grinders? Of course not.

And this is not a conversation about Killa Kans. Killa Kans are good at certain roles, which i'm not even getting into. This is a conversation about Ghaz, Not Kans.

Uhm, you were the one who brought up kanz first, not me. If you don't want to talk about kanz, well... don't?

Remember what "you" would do is irrelevant to what happened in my games as I was not playing you. I also never reference running them "behind my boys."

I was just making up an arbitrary tactic which was just as stupid as the ones you described your opponents doing, and then drew a completely skewed conclusion from it. It simply was an analogy to your argument.

Why did I charge Ghaz + Mega Armor Nobs with Burnas and my Warboss? Because the scenario was kill points and bonus points of killing HQ. I netted 2 KP's and extra bonus points for taking down HQ. That's called playing the scenario. I ensured my target was dead. Why did I charge him with Killa Kans? He had taken wounds AND again KP and scenario IE ensuring my goal is complete.

Neither of those plays was a bad decision. The question was why did your opponent allow this to happen? And why are any of those situations which will never come up again in the exact same way relevant to the way you should use Ghazghkull Thrakka?

Did you even read my last post where I suggest trying him out?
You sure make a whole lot of assumptions about what I did in my games instead of simply reading the post.

As I countered every single one of your arguments, you can assume that I did read your post.
You are telling people that thrakka is terrible because he can easily be killed by killa kanz. After you get called out on that bold (and wrong) statement, Thrakka is suddenly down to two wounds and you are charging him with six kanz, something entirely different. Believe me I read your posts carefully, and I don't assume anything beside what you have told us. Which is you steamrolling an opponent who is both a bad list builder and general and drawing arbitrary conclusions from that.

I dont think he is as good as people suggest.

flower power wrote:I dont think he is as good as people suggest.

I don't know what "people" suggest, but he is a pretty significant model.

He can make your entire army have a guaranteed 18" assault range for 2 consecutive turns, and he can have a 2+ invulnerable save for 2 turns. With T5, eternal Warrior, and 7 PK attacks on the charge. He's about as devastating a model as you'll find for 225 points on the WAAAGH and that's not counting the army-wide benefits he gives.

flower power wrote:I dont think he is as good as people suggest.

Actually he is as good. He just doesn't come for free, which kind of balances it out. at low points you are usually missing out on too much by fielding him.

Jidmah wrote:Yeah, but if you roll for their move, they are all dead. Besides, it's and utter waste of kommandoz, thrakka and points to do so. If you want to ambush an IC use a biker warboss or the mad dok.

The best way to use Ghazghkull Thrakka is to drop him out of a transport (battlewagon/trukk) and have him hulk-smash any unit whose faces you don't like. He will most likely emerge victorious. He is also a great babysitter for burnaz, as he brings high ld and a boss pole to them, while they provide him with the means to handle hordes.

Not true. they walk up to 6" on the table like any other infantry coming in from reserves.

pg 94 of the brb

UNLESS of course you are actually moving in to difficult or dangerous terrain of course then a trip 1 would make the whole unit be destroyed. (unless of course you have an old school OOP ghazkull which came on a smaller base.

Jidmah wrote:Yeah, but if you roll for their move, they are all dead.

Pg 94, Arriving from reserves: "If a unit has a special rule [ ] that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserve."

S+P does not affect Ghazgkhull when he comes in from the board edge, so he moves 6" with the rest of the Kommandos. However, if you CHOOSE to move through difficult terrain, then you do have to make a difficult terrain test.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Yeah, but if you roll for their move, they are all dead.

Pg 94, Arriving from reserves: "If a unit has a special rule [ ] that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserve."

S+P does not affect Ghazgkhull when he comes in from the board edge, so he moves 6" with the rest of the Kommandos. However, if you CHOOSE to move through difficult terrain, then you do have to make a difficult terrain test.

Wrong. S&P does not stop him from moving. Neither does S&P even slow him at all. Difficult terrain rules slow him, and neither slowing nor difficult terrain are taken into account by the rule on pg. 94.

First off ~ never called him bad / terrible, I advised counter points, and even suggested trying him out. I think he has his merits, however for competitive play, and the fact that may of the top tier armies can counter him easily, I think there are better options.

Second off ~ I don't think you care other people have opinions counter to yours. And yes, all my games are in GT play, because that's all I play based on my time and family. And yes, I do just fine with my orks.

How does Ghaz confer an 18 inch assault for two turns? Would'nt the waagh end on your second turn?

njpc wrote:First off ~ never called him bad / terrible, I advised counter points, and even suggested trying him out. I think he has his merits, however for competitive play, and the fact that may of the top tier armies can counter him easily, I think there are better options.

Better options like what? Granted, the second KFF is a must for most foot slogging armies, but any meched orks that have the points to spare don't get anything better than a one-ork deathstar.

Second off ~ I don't think you care other people have opinions counter to yours. And yes, all my games are in GT play, because that's all I play based on my time and family. And yes, I do just fine with my orks.

I care a lot about other people's (and in this case, your) opinion, otherwise I wouldn't bother answering. I'm open to new ideas and willing to try out things I never thought off before, like ascalam's block of ork vehicles.
However, Ghazghkull Thrakka is a model I have used and seen used in about any way possible and have done the math for more possible fights than a sane man should. So if you tell me that kanz can easily take care of him, I will not accept that, because it is just as likely as gretchin are going to kill a unit of purifiers. It will happen some times, but not often.

Plainly put "it happened to me once" and "it works for me" is nothing to support an argument with. There was this british policeman who got struck by lightning six times without dying. I happened to him and worked, but lightning still kills most people when struck the first time.

To quote AbusePuppy from 3++:

Now of course no one needs to make any kind of defense of the units they want to use in their army- it is, after all, their army and the decisions they make are entirely their own to choose. However, when one begins advocating other people to follow particular courses of action, one enters into the realm of public discussion, where one is expected to be able to present arguments supporting a point.

WaaaghGruzkull wrote:How does Ghaz confer an 18 inch assault for two turns? Would'nt the waagh end on your second turn?

Correct, you can only charge 18" once.

Would this be a good idea:

G. Thraka
4 Mega nobs (2 skorcha/2 missile)
Battle wagon w/ deff roller, armor plates, red paint job.

Gaz is a giant whore of a character. I could care less about your nobs, as everyone knows nobs are a terrible, terrible unit. But gaz scares me, 2++ and that many powerklaw attacks beats the hell out of whatever he hits, and the 6" waaagh is brutal. I think ork lists that include gaz are a level above those without.

Eidolon wrote:Gaz is a giant whore of a character. I could care less about your nobs, as everyone knows nobs are a terrible, terrible unit. But gaz scares me, 2++ and that many powerklaw attacks beats the hell out of whatever he hits, and the 6" waaagh is brutal. I think ork lists that include gaz are a level above those without.

Everyone? No, not everyone knows, because not everyone has force weapons on their basic troops that ignore FNP and wound allocation.

Oh, and that's the only reason you find Ghaz scarier than Nobz is because incidentally he has Eternal Warrior which confounds your ID shenanigans.

Sorry, I forgot that grey knights and orks are the only armies in 5th edition, and missed the 3 other armies I play that also have plenty of tools to handle nob squads. Actually, my gk dont really have any true combat units, as its a coteaz list, and im not going to charge a strike squad into your nob squad.

Wolf missile spam, ig firepower, dark eldar lance weapons, grey knight psyfleman and psycannons, hammernators, melta guns. Things that come to mind that destroy nobs and cant do a lot to gaz when hes on the rag.

Nobs havent really been good since what.....early 2010, at the latest?

Fair enough.

That's why nobz always need a transport - everyone and their dog can instant-death them.