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Horus654 wrote:I've always thought that the Emprah's Hatred of Xenos and the fact that the great crusade did exterminate a bunch of alien species originated from the big E realising that certain aliens had deeper emotions, and thus a bigger impact on the warp.
The Fall of the Eldar really screwed humanity over by making the warp nearly intraversable for a loooong time, and he wants to avoid something like that again.

You have that backwards, the Fall of the Eldar is what allowed humanity to emerge from the ruins of Old Night because Slaanesh' birth dispersed many of the warp storms.

illuknisaa wrote:
Blackfang almost killed horus, dorn and mortarion (all of their forces were pretty much wiped out) and only E's intervention saved them.

Not to mention the ork that choked out the Emperor himself.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
I'm curious as to where you get your information then. If we are not to listen to the Authors of the Black Library, then where should we get any information found outside GW published material?

GW maintains that the universe presented by the Black Library is not canon. You can only get information about the real 40k universe from 40k products.

I had a feeling that would be your response. So if you don't believe any of the information outside of the GW material (BL books) then why would you argue with someone about the supposed information that you find to be false? I'm a little confused as to your logic. You should have no interest in any of this, but yet you seem to. Perplexing.

Because when something is proclaimed loudly and long enough about 40k's background on the internet, it becomes fact in the game; e.g. the C'tan now known as The Void Dragon.

Misinformation needs to be stopped at all times lest the facts be lost altogether.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
I'm curious as to where you get your information then. If we are not to listen to the Authors of the Black Library, then where should we get any information found outside GW published material?

GW maintains that the universe presented by the Black Library is not canon. You can only get information about the real 40k universe from 40k products.

I was under the impression that they had said that the Horus Heresy series is, in fact, official canon, and as such, so are the events and xenocidal tendencies portrayed within.

Enron wrote:The Emperor and the imperium were very xenocidal

The Imperium is, the Emperor wasn't. He was willing to accept submission from xenos to Humanity. None ever did, but he was willing to accept it.

Submission though, not equality, not even tolerance.

How can you possibly know that he would have accepted surrender if no one ever did it? Perhaps many tried, and he massacred them all because they didn't do it well enough.

Durza wrote:
I was under the impression that they had said that the Horus Heresy series is, in fact, official canon, and as such, so are the events and xenocidal tendencies portrayed within.

The direct statements i've seen is that HH is "canon until otherwise' - maintaining that long tradition of GW's ability to go back and revise.

While i don't think you'd get such a dramatic restructirng as Necrons from 4th to 5th, what yo might see are simply "elaborations" or "expansions" of ideas/plots that may twist away from the writer's intent in future products.

Durza wrote:
Submission though, not equality, not even tolerance.
How can you possibly know that he would have accepted surrender if no one ever did it? Perhaps many tried, and he massacred them all because they didn't do it well enough.

Isn't that the whole problem with the argument in either direction? We don't concievably know every square inch, every fact and/or detail of the Great Crusade.

Nor is it in GW's interests to outline every single possible bit of history - if they did that they wouldn't be able to produce a "surprise" out of the HH hat if they needed to in the future.

And to reiterate a point - we're not given an omniscient third person view of what is going through the Emperor's head. The current Horus Heresy books portray him in a rather negative light - but take a strong hard look at the folks making the commentary *cough* traitors *cough*.


Part of McNeill and Abnett's initial salvo has been to try and take some of the sheen off the Emperor who started to look a little "NobleBright" than "GrimDark." in the last couple renditions of Warhammer.

But (reiterating for the 3rd time) - no one is going to actually definitively pin down the character of the Emperor and his motives.

There is no point to doing it. Leaving it opaque like this allows other authors to use the Emperor "Mysterious motives" as a plot device. You can portray him as a Super Bastard or Messiah and get away with either interpretation.

It also incidentally gives fans of WH40k and the Novels something to talk about (like this very thread).

Durza wrote:
How can you possibly know that he would have accepted surrender if no one ever did it?

Older material said so.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Durza wrote:
I was under the impression that they had said that the Horus Heresy series is, in fact, official canon, and as such, so are the events and xenocidal tendencies portrayed within.

The direct statements i've seen is that HH is "canon until otherwise' - maintaining that long tradition of GW's ability to go back and revise.

While i don't think you'd get such a dramatic restructirng as Necrons from 4th to 5th, what yo might see are simply "elaborations" or "expansions" of ideas/plots that may twist away from the writer's intent in future products.

Durza wrote:
Submission though, not equality, not even tolerance.
How can you possibly know that he would have accepted surrender if no one ever did it? Perhaps many tried, and he massacred them all because they didn't do it well enough.

Isn't that the whole problem with the argument in either direction? We don't concievably know every square inch, every fact and/or detail of the Great Crusade.

Nor is it in GW's interests to outline every single possible bit of history - if they did that they wouldn't be able to produce a "surprise" out of the HH hat if they needed to in the future.

And to reiterate a point - we're not given an omniscient third person view of what is going through the Emperor's head. The current Horus Heresy books portray him in a rather negative light - but take a strong hard look at the folks making the commentary *cough* traitors *cough*.


Part of McNeill and Abnett's initial salvo has been to try and take some of the sheen off the Emperor who started to look a little "NobleBright" than "GrimDark." in the last couple renditions of Warhammer.

But (reiterating for the 3rd time) - no one is going to actually definitively pin down the character of the Emperor and his motives.

There is no point to doing it. Leaving it opaque like this allows other authors to use the Emperor "Mysterious motives" as a plot device. You can portray him as a Super Bastard or Messiah and get away with either interpretation.

It also incidentally gives fans of WH40k and the Novels something to talk about (like this very thread).

Nothing you are saying is wrong.

I would still be on the side that says the emperor was genocidal though. There haven't been any mentions of a peaceful solution with xenos during the Great Crusade, while they have gone into detail about massive exterminations. Since we have evidence of one happening quite often and the other not happening, I would have to say that there have been no peaceful solutions found. Until I am given proof of the other that is.

It's similar to Black Swans. Before you see one, you don't believe there are any or have ever been any. But they do exist. It could be the same with xenos, I just won't say there is until I see it (or read it) for myself.

Durza wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
I'm curious as to where you get your information then. If we are not to listen to the Authors of the Black Library, then where should we get any information found outside GW published material?

GW maintains that the universe presented by the Black Library is not canon. You can only get information about the real 40k universe from 40k products.

I was under the impression that they had said that the Horus Heresy series is, in fact, official canon, and as such, so are the events and xenocidal tendencies portrayed within.

Not just the Heresy series, but all Black Library is fluff. GW have made no such statement that BL isn't fluff. It would be nice if such a statement was made, or that they did have stringent fluff guidelines, but this isn't the case. To say only the Heresy Series is fluff would be silly as well, as there are inconsistencies throughout that as well.

Durza wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Enron wrote:The Emperor and the imperium were very xenocidal

The Imperium is, the Emperor wasn't. He was willing to accept submission from xenos to Humanity. None ever did, but he was willing to accept it.

Submission though, not equality, not even tolerance.

How can you possibly know that he would have accepted surrender if no one ever did it? Perhaps many tried, and he massacred them all because they didn't do it well enough.

As far as I know, the Emperor has never been tolerant of any Xenos race as far back as 2ed, when the Great Crusade was introduced setting up the Primarchs and Heresy setting.

What I can find at the moment

Titan Legions
This mighty enterprise is known as the Great Crusade and it lasted for two hundred years. The Emperor's forces spread out from the Sol system, searching for surviving human worlds and driving out alien usurpers. Many long forgotten planets were liberated during the Great Crusade and many worlds were settled anew. Gradually the Imperium expanded throughout the galaxy.

Lost and the Damned
Humanity Rose to the task of rebuilding its ancient Heritage, and everywhere the alien oppressor was defeated and driven out.

"alien usurpers" and "alien oppressors" are not "aliens who got out of the way".

DarknessEternal wrote:"alien usurpers" and "alien oppressors" are not "aliens who got out of the way".

'Usurper' and 'oppressor' are terms generally tossed around by any invading army as a means of justifying their slaughter. Well, those and 'barbarian'. And considering that it's from the Imperial perspective, it's not the most trustworthy of sources.

Ignatius wrote:
I would still be on the side that says the emperor was genocidal though. There haven't been any mentions of a peaceful solution with xenos during the Great Crusade, while they have gone into detail about massive exterminations. Since we have evidence of one happening quite often and the other not happening, I would have to say that there have been no peaceful solutions found. Until I am given proof of the other that is.

It's similar to Black Swans. Before you see one, you don't believe there are any or have ever been any. But they do exist. It could be the same with xenos, I just won't say there is until I see it (or read it) for myself.

Hey, i'm more than willing to say that the actions of the Emperor look very genocidal for the reasons you stated.

but that's as far as i'm willing to go - the actions ~ I can't impute anything about his personal character or the motives as to Why he's taken up supporting the "Kill'em all" strategy.

Part of this goes back to McNeil's short story "The Last Church." When that thing first came out (perhaps the only story where the Emperor has a sustained speaking role) - everybody was thinking about it in terms of the wider debates about religion and science on the internet.

And then someone actually asked the important question, the one that McNeill was laughing to himself about: "Why is the Emperor telling the priest that religion is false and gods don't exist...when we objectively know about the Chaos Gods? When he objectively knows about the Chaos Gods?!"

Answer: The Emperor was Lying through his teeth to meet an objective.

The only two characteristics (the only ones that the writers have ever kept consistent between each rendition of the Emperor in the novels and Warhammer) that i'm willing to actually say ~ yes this is true ~ is that the Emperor Lies..and he's very very pragmatic.

They are trying to shape him up to be "master manipulator" on the level of tzeentch, the C'tan Deceiver, and Cegorach the Laughing God. In fact i think 1d4chan's wiki has a Joke about how the Four of them get together and play poker and it always results in a draw because everyone is pulling out the "Just as Planned" spiel --> 1d4chan.org/wiki/Just_As_Planned.

The central tenant behind the "master manipulator" archetype is that his actions and motives are always hidden. He may be angry with you...but he's doing that to challenge you because he KNEW that you'd overcome the obstacle if you were challenged.

He may say he likes you, but A HA! that was really part of his super secret plot to get him to trust you so he could eliminate you quietly in the night. Etc. etc.

In other words Actions =/= Inner Thoughts/Preferences.

As it stands right now, the Emperor is being utilized in such a manner. Heck, take a look at the HH novel, The Outcast Dead's ending (which i won't spoil for those who haven't read it). That one DIRECTLY involves the Emperor..and what does he do with the information?

Absolutely Nothing.

Why? Because he's the Manipulator...and it somehow falls into "the Grand Plan" which we mere mortals are not privy to...

ie: The writers are still working on what that is. If anything...

Durza wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:"alien usurpers" and "alien oppressors" are not "aliens who got out of the way".

'Usurper' and 'oppressor' are terms generally tossed around by any invading army as a means of justifying their slaughter. Well, those and 'barbarian'. And considering that it's from the Imperial perspective, it's not the most trustworthy of sources.

Exactly, it's from the Imperium point of view. No where does it say the Emperor was a nice bloke and moved Xenos onto a nice little planet with a few water features and a drive through McDonalds. Aliens were bad and were there to be smited for the safety of mankind.

The HH books give us plenty of examples of the Emperor's foreign policy, particularly the first few dealing with the Luna Wolves.

For example, they came across some humans who were working in harmony and cooperation with other alien races. The Imperium issues them an ultimatum: renounce your alien allies and join us, or die. They refuse, so they all die. Another example, they come across a human planet where the populace has a tiny amount of alien genetic material in their DNA, presumably from some time in the past where they used it to eliminate some sort of genetic defect and/or disease (cancer or some such). In discussion of Imperial policy, the representatives of the Council urge utter destruction of these people. There are other examples throughout the books, as well.

Emperor was never nice, not to anyone. This is the same man that created a specific type of superhuman that was ruthless, violent and without a drop of remorse, so he could utterly crush any and all resistance on Terra as part of his Unification. Then when they served their purpose, he had them all killed. And the Imperial "Truth" is not the only lie he propagated. Yes, it's probably safe to say that the Emperor "saved" humanity. After all, he ended the Psy Wars, brought low countless tyrants, and brought an end to millenia of wars and disunity. He gave humanity a purpose beyond themselves, swept away the vestiges of Old Night, and gave them a fighting chance against the horrors of the universe. But there was a hefty price to pay for this salvation. One of my favorite quotes from the HH novels is in The Outcast Dead:

The worth of the individual was the greatest lie the Imperium had made its people swallow. From soldiers in the army to the scribes of the palace to the workers toiling in the factories, every human life was in service to the Emperor. Whether they realised it or not, the human race had been yoked to the singular goal of the galaxy's conquest.

For the first time in his life, Kai saw the Imperium for what it was, a machine that could operate on such a vast scale only because its fuel of human life was in never-ending supply.

In the Last Church, while discussing whether the Emperor is really any different from the autocrats and crusading holy men he purports to want to eliminate, the priest speaking to him sees this:

Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with anything this man had to offer, no matter how noble or lofty his ambitions might be.

I don't have the book handy to pull up the specific quote, but in Legion, when John Grammaticus recalled his first meeting with the Emperor, he saw a similarly monstrous core. It could very well be that after thousands and thousands of years of watching humans be stupid donkey-caves to each other, he finally lost patience, and decided the only way to go forward is to bring us all to heel and give us a single purpose. Of course, the ideas of personal liberty and choice that we all hold so dear, died with his ascension to the throne. Of course, there's also the logic disconnect of claiming there are no gods or demons, and then appearing as a being of beatific light that brings a sense of rapture to anyone who sees him. Either the Emperor was extremely naive, or quite insane. The latter seems likely given that he's an amalgam of thousands of different personalities. Hell, humanity frustrates me to the point that I wish I could kill half and ruthlessly rule the rest, and I haven't had to witness the worst of our nonsense for millenia (especially if you consider possibility that the Emperor was all of the religious figures of the past, whose message of peace was inevitably turned to one of bloodshed). In short, the Emperor is a genocidal, tyrannical megalomaniac who puts no value on human life beyond how it can serve his greater purpose. He's also probably right.