Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

grendel083 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

grendel083 wrote:If you were rolling to hit then he has missed his chance to use Flechette by not informing you. A roll is what it's declare for, can't be changed later. remind him of that next time.

Just needed to comment on this post:

This line of thinking is entirely wrong; Flechette Dischargers are not voluntary. So there is no "missing" your chance to use them, they are just as mandatory as CC attacks from models within range of the vehicle(whether those models have any chance to harm the hammerhead or not).

I see what you mean, they're not voluntary. But if a unit has already rolled to hit you can't really say "oh I forgot that vehicle has flechette, you'll have to discard all those rolls and backtrack".

The scenario posted was of Flechette not being mentioned until the unit had already rolled to hit. If you fail to mention wargear before it's too late, then it's just that - too late. Opportunity missed.

The rules don't tell us what to do if you break them. You MUST do a Flechette roll. If you don't, it's up to you, your opponent, and the TO to try and resolve the issue.

It's the same as forgetting about Rage or Wraithsight or Weirdboyz powers or anything else that is mandatory.

grendel083 wrote: But if a unit has already rolled to hit you can't really say "oh I forgot that vehicle has flechette, you'll have to discard all those rolls and backtrack".

The scenario posted was of Flechette not being mentioned until the unit had already rolled to hit. If you fail to mention wargear before it's too late, then it's just that - too late. Opportunity missed.

I would disagree with this.

It's up to both players to play by the rules. The rules of your army aren't a secret to be revealed to your opponent when the time is right, and that your opponent can just ignore unless you mention them at the right time. While we generally don't require players to be fully aware of the rules of every army in the game in order to play, if a rule is forgotten, that's an error on both players part not just the responsibility of that army's owner.

If you forget to apply a mandatory rule that would have possibly changed subsequent actions, there are two potential resolutions... you can ignore it and move on, or you can backtrack to the point where that rule would have applied, and carry on from there. The rules don't tell us which is preferred, so it is ultimately up to the players how they want to handle it.

Out of curiosity, if an ork vehicle with a Boarding Plank used that in order to have a Nob hit the Tau vehicle... would the launchers work or not?

insaniak wrote:

grendel083 wrote: But if a unit has already rolled to hit you can't really say "oh I forgot that vehicle has flechette, you'll have to discard all those rolls and backtrack".

The scenario posted was of Flechette not being mentioned until the unit had already rolled to hit. If you fail to mention wargear before it's too late, then it's just that - too late. Opportunity missed.

I would disagree with this.

It's up to both players to play by the rules. The rules of your army aren't a secret to be revealed to your opponent when the time is right, and that your opponent can just ignore unless you mention them at the right time. While we generally don't require players to be fully aware of the rules of every army in the game in order to play, if a rule is forgotten, that's an error on both players part not just the responsibility of that army's owner.

If you forget to apply a mandatory rule that would have possibly changed subsequent actions, there are two potential resolutions... you can ignore it and move on, or you can backtrack to the point where that rule would have applied, and carry on from there. The rules don't tell us which is preferred, so it is ultimately up to the players how they want to handle it.

Well thank you for painting me the villain.

I absolutely agree that both players should be as open as possible about these things. We're all in this hobby to enjoy ourselves, and my suggestions were aimed at fair play for all involved.

In this thread a story was told where rules were kept from a player, they weren't informed of what they had just rolled for or how the rules involved affected them. Based on this I advised (just as you've just advised) that this information should not be kept from the player. A fair opponent should never hide from you what a dice roll is for, and only reveal its purpose once you've rolled. A genuine mistake is fair enough, but being lead by the nose is not a fun way to play. BOTH players need to be able to enjoy the hobby, else what's the point?

insaniak wrote:if a rule is forgotten, that's an error on both players part not just the responsibility of that army's owner.

Generally I agree, but we're talking wargear here. If I forget to inform my opponent that I have a piece of equipment, I can't blame them when I remember to late now can I? I would take responsibility for forgetting, admit its too late and move on. I'd expect the same in return.

grendel083 wrote:Well thank you for painting me the villain.

Do what, now?

If I forget to inform my opponent that I have a piece of equipment, I can't blame them when I remember to late now can I?

That's just one of the reasons that keeping everything as close as possible to WYSIWYG is a big deal. Helps prevent that sort of thing from being a problem.

I agree with grendel on this, if you miss the boat, tough.
I have often gone into the shooting phase by running a unit without finishing the movement phase, tough luck to me.

Plus how do you show flachette launchers? Is there a piece on the sprues like smoke launchers for imperail tanks? How would I as a non-tau player recognise them?

liturgies of blood wrote:I agree with grendel on this, if you miss the boat, tough.
I have often gone into the shooting phase by running a unit without finishing the movement phase, tough luck to me.

Plus how do you show flachette launchers? Is there a piece on the sprues like smoke launchers for imperail tanks? How would I as a non-tau player recognise them?

Yes but entering the shooting phase by running is completly different. As moving is not mandatory you can stay where you are. If you had a unit with rage so long as that unts run move did not affect what you were going to do then I would say "You missed the unit with rage do you wanna go back and move hem" If you/ the other player questioned me asking why should i move them I would say "The rage USR says you must move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy unit".

But other than things liek that there just moving is not mandatory. Whereas flechetes are. So if you entered the shooting on accident then tough luck but forgetting to do something that is mandatory is different I would say just go back and see how many die then re-roll. if it was my fault and I forgot I would allow you to either re-roll or remove the misses first saying the orks that died missed there attacks. However if the opposing player did not give me time to roll for flechetes and just started rolling i would make them go back and re-roll after i had used the flechetes as they never gave me a chance to interupt them and use the flechettes.

That is my opinion but many will think different to me.

But know afaik there are no flechete launchers on the sprue I have never found any. If your opponent has them modeld they will show you them. But as no-one knows what they look like it could vary from player to player. My self i don't model them on as people at my two LGS don't have a problem with it I just say what it is equiped with. And remind them when/if i need to use it. Disruption pods however I always model them on using the butt of burst cannons.

liturgies of blood wrote:I have often gone into the shooting phase by running a unit without finishing the movement phase, tough luck to me.

Which is a completely different issue, unless one or more of the units you forgot to move was required to move.

The flechette launchers aren't something that you choose to use, and so would not be a problem if you forget to use them. They are a special effect that applies when something assaults the vehicle. So forgetting to use them is more akin to forgetting, say, to apply S&P to Meganobz than to just forgetting to move a unit.

If both players are happy to keep playing regardless, that's fine. But otherwise, provided the game hasn't moved on to a point where doing so would case bigger issues than it solves, you should go back and apply the effect.

Plus how do you show flachette launchers? Is there a piece on the sprues like smoke launchers for imperail tanks?

Note where I said '...as close as possible...'

Not everything is easily represented. However, representing as much as you can means fewer things that have to be remembered.

Flechette dischargers are currently only available from Forgeworld, although it wouldn't be hard to righ up something similar using a couple of target locks.

How would I as a non-tau player recognise them?

How do you recognise boltguns?

Learning what everything looks like is just part of learning to play the game.

If my opponent points out something about a USR like rage I'd happily do it cos I usually run them full tilt across the board but if I forgot to roll reserves or as cost me a game recently that ap1 adds to penetration rolls. Then my bad.
Having someone charge me with their squad and get 5 penetrating hits and I then suddenly remember that i have flachette launchers, it seems a little unsporting to loose him the 5 pens and me to go "oh no wait go back".

If I saw a piece of wargear that allows the opponent to get out of something I'll remind him but if I don't have a copy of his army list in my hands I am unlikely to know exactly what it has and what the wargear does. I don't mind people not putting flachette launchers or dispersion pods(or whatever they are called) on their vehicles just so long as I am reminded they are there and what they do.

I think that is rather rich, a boltgun is an iconic part of the game. The utilitarian look of imperial tanks makes it fairly easy to figure out what each thing is. Eldar and tau are a little less cut and dry and people may not use all of the little gubbins on their model. Wysiwyg hasn't been a big issue for a long time, it is a joke. Not even GW's store armies follow it, when was the last time you saw a space marine army with tacticle marines with a bolter, pistol and 2 types of grenades? I don't expect my opponent to show the wargear but I expect him to tell me about it's effects in a timely manor preferably before I am screwed out of a decent set of rolls.

liturgies of blood wrote:
Having someone charge me with their squad and get 5 penetrating hits and I then suddenly remember that i have flachette launchers, it seems a little unsporting to loose him the 5 pens and me to go "oh no wait go back".

Thats why I sai if it was my fault i would allow them to take off the misses first or if he had rolled for pen then I would say the ones that missed/did nt damage the vehicle died unless he gets 5 pens and still must take off a model then take it off there attacks.

Say 10 models with 2 attacks each so 20 attacks, 15 hits, 5 pens, 5 glances. I then use my flecchetes after forgetting about them. If 6 models died to flechetes I would say. Take off the misses and 1 that did no damage. There is 3 of them gone now take off 2 more guys that did no damage. there is 5 guys dead and he still has his 5 pens and 5 glances. Now take off 2 glances for the final guys attacks.

End result 5 pens and 3 glances. With the right amount of casulties to you and affected your roll as least as possible. That way im not making him re-roll. i would as k do you just wanna re-roll or then say what I just said. if he got a crap roll he may wish to re-roll fair do's he may have got a good roll and want to kee as much of it as he could again fair do's.

I get what your saying but I would be more punishing on myself for the mistake. Way I see it, if I forgot about the rule it's the same as the crew forgetting to turn the launchers on to protect the tank.

Plus is it not the case of do it all again as you could take out the power fist weilding model and leave the squad unable to penetrate the hull.

liturgies of blood wrote:I get what your saying but I would be more punishing on myself for the mistake. Way I see it, if I forgot about the rule it's the same as the crew forgetting to turn the launchers on to protect the tank.

Plus is it not the case of do it all again as you could take out the power fist weilding model and leave the squad unable to penetrate the hull.

Thats why I would let them remove the guys they want and keep the poqerfist guy as it was a mistake on my behealf. I wouldnt make a big fuss over it if they were refusing to let me use them I would just think okay it was my mistake an get on with the game. Its just some peoples personal preferance

I also get what you are saying but I guess we justthink differantly some will agree with you some me it all really depends on how people think of it. Normalyl I am punishing on myself but slowly I am leaning to be less forgiving as sometimes people arent as forgiving with me. But if the player has let me go back on other things then I will just say "I forgot about the flechette launchers damn. Oh well i'll remember next time". I wouldnt go out of my way to get them to allow me to go back if they really didn't want to though.

But anyway atleast we can end that debate by agreeing to disagree kind of thing.

EDIT: If it was my fault I would allow them to keep the powerfist even if I had killed the whole of the unit with flechetes unlikley yes but impossible no. So If I forgot and they allowed me to go back i wouldnt remove the Powerist even if he had died. That way eh can be harm the vehicle and if he kills it then I have payed for my mistake.

liturgies of blood wrote:Wysiwyg hasn't been a big issue for a long time, it is a joke. Not even GW's store armies follow it, ...

WYSIWYG is as useful as you allow it to be.

If the people you play with choose not to follow it, that's entirely up to you and them. That doesn't change its usefulness when it is followed.

...when was the last time you saw a space marine army with tacticle marines with a bolter, pistol and 2 types of grenades?

The point is, isn't it easier to remember that Space Marines have those things if they are actually represented on the model?

That's what WYSIWYG is for. How closely you choose to follow it is ultimately up to you and your opponents. But the closer you do follow it, the easier it is to play the game, because it results in fewer units on the board that require you to remember what they are actually equipped with.


That's really the whole point I was making on WYSIWYG... Remembering to apply wargear effects is easier when that wargear is represented.

And ultimately, that's completely secondary to the actual issue, which is that remembering mandatory rules is up to both players. Ideally, both players should be familiar with the rules in play... In practice, that doesn't always happen. but that doesn't change the fact that remembering to apply a mandatory effect is not just the responsibility of the player who owns that army. It's up to both players to ensure that the rules of the game are being followed.

I suppose another way would be to just say that I forgot the launchers, you resolve your hits then they fire. That way you get hit with more then you would have and he still gets the hail of spikes.

Oh I agree it's personal preference and I would be hard on myself in a friendly game maybe not so much with a TFG in a tournament.

liturgies of blood wrote:
Oh I agree it's personal preference and I would be hard on myself in a friendly game maybe not so much with a TFG in a tournament.

Agreed I would not be so comftable with a TFG especially in a tournemant setting where he will constantly trying to pull illegal stunts.

One other thing. The "2 wounds on the nob" could of happened with a misunderstanding of allocation. He said he strung out his guys so the squad was still in cover. If he is maintaining coherency between the nob and the squad, he would have at least one orc boy that would have to make his attacks, thus having to take a Flechette round.

It simply sounds to me like there is a misunderstanding of some game rules here, and a slight break down in communication. Obviously one person is feeling cheated because he doesn't understand the rules that the tau player is sending his way. In the end just remember, this is a game, intended to be played for fun. Everyone should be understanding and open enough to ask questions and listen to the answers. Always have your codex handy.

Sounds like he was thinking flachette works like a pumped up truesilver armor. It would be cool if it did.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

grendel083 wrote:If you were rolling to hit then he has missed his chance to use Flechette by not informing you. A roll is what it's declare for, can't be changed later. remind him of that next time.

Just needed to comment on this post:

This line of thinking is entirely wrong; Flechette Dischargers are not voluntary. So there is no "missing" your chance to use them, they are just as mandatory as CC attacks from models within range of the vehicle(whether those models have any chance to harm the hammerhead or not).

For example; lets say you have a squad of 12 trukk boyz that assault a Hammerhead with Flechettes. The Flechettes kill 5 of the boyz before any swings, and the remaining 6 Boyz and nob only Immobilize and Stun the tank. In the Tau turn the Orks go to attack the tank again(it could not move, so they may still attack it, still being in Base-to-base as they are), the Boyz are only S3, and therefore have no chance whatsoever to do any damage but they must attack the tank anyways do to the assault rules not allowing any model to hold back cc attacks. therefore the flechettes will kill another 3-4 boyz(and possibly wounding the Nob at some point)

Moral of the story is; do not assault vehicles with Flechettes with Save 5+ or < models.

I'm sorry, but no.

In tournament play (I've been to 3 of them each in different parts of the country,), if you "forget" about something like Flechettes, then you have in fact "missed your chance to use them."

Now, it's one thing if your opponent tries to roll for hit very quickly and you mention it to him, it's another if he rolls for armor pen, gets that process done and over with, gave you a chance to mention the Flechettes, and you didn't mention them. At that point you have missed your opportunity.

It generally works the same in a friendly game too, and is most common when someone is playing a new codex or someone is a new player. Much more leeway in a friendly game of course but your opponent doesn't have to let you "do over." It's on you to know and remember your own rules.

Spectral Dragon wrote:I'm sorry, but no.

In tournament play (I've been to 3 of them each in different parts of the country,), if you "forget" about something like Flechettes, then you have in fact "missed your chance to use them."

Now, it's one thing if your opponent tries to roll for hit very quickly and you mention it to him, it's another if he rolls for armor pen, gets that process done and over with, gave you a chance to mention the Flechettes, and you didn't mention them. At that point you have missed your opportunity.

It generally works the same in a friendly game too, and is most common when someone is playing a new codex or someone is a new player. Much more leeway in a friendly game of course but your opponent doesn't have to let you "do over." It's on you to know and remember your own rules.

For things that are optional you are correct.

For things that are mandatory, there the waters get very muddy.

there is no set way of doing things. If both people agree that it is too late, then they just move on from there.

But if there is an issue you have to discuss it with your opponent.

Something like rolling to hit, pen and rolling on the damage chart is easy enough to backtrack through (and if the model is still alive keep the results) and everyone is happy.

Spectral Dragon wrote:Now, it's one thing if your opponent tries to roll for hit very quickly and you mention it to him, it's another if he rolls for armor pen, gets that process done and over with, gave you a chance to mention the Flechettes, and you didn't mention them. At that point you have missed your opportunity.

Would you argue the same if your opponent had, to return to a previous example, moved his Meganobz, moved on to another unit, and then remembered that Meganobz have Slow and Purposeful?

Using the flechettes is not an 'opportunity'... you don't choose to do it. It is a mandatory action that is required when the vehicle is assaulted. It's nothing to do with your opponent 'letting you have a do-over'... it's something that both players should have known was required.

insaniak wrote:Would you argue the same if your opponent had, to return to a previous example, moved his Meganobz, moved on to another unit, and then remembered that Meganobz have Slow and Purposeful?

Using the flechettes is not an 'opportunity'... you don't choose to do it. It is a mandatory action that is required when the vehicle is assaulted. It's nothing to do with your opponent 'letting you have a do-over'... it's something that both players should have known was required.

While I see their use is mandatory, it isn't something equipped on every Tau vehicle.

Anyone familiar with Orks should know about the Meganobz, it's part of the rules for fielding them. I'll agree with you there that both players should be aware of rules like this.

But a vehicle upgrade? I'm open with rules with my oponent, they can browse my codex freely, and I'll let them look at my list if need be, but I don't expect both players to study each others list before each game. And outside of a tourament WYSIWYG isn't much use.

The use of Flechette is mandatory, but it's an optional upgrade. If I forgot i bought it there's no way my opponent is in any way to blame. I would count it as a missed opertunity and move on. Backtracking for a Madatory rule (like the Wierdboy mentioned or compulsory movement) is one thing, but a forgot bit of wargear?

grendel083 wrote:While I see their use is mandatory, it isn't something equipped on every Tau vehicle.

Nor is Mega Armour equipped to every Ork. I'm not seeing a difference.

Or are you seriously trying to argue that mandatory rules are less mandatory if the unit they apply to isn't as common?

Anyone familiar with Orks should know about the Meganobz, it's part of the rules for fielding them. I'll agree with you there that both players should be aware of rules like this.

But a vehicle upgrade? I'm open with rules with my oponent, they can browse my codex freely, and I'll let them look at my list if need be, but I don't expect both players to study each others list before each game.

The issue has nothing to do with studying each others' lists.

The whole point is that the flechettes are a mandatory action, not a voluntary one. As such, it is the responsibility of both players to ensure that they happen... because both players are obliged to play by the rules.

Mandatory rules don't apply just when the player who owns the codex remembers to apply them.

And outside of a tourament WYSIWYG isn't much use.

Again, it's as much use as you want it to be.

The use of Flechette is mandatory, but it's an optional upgrade. If I forgot i bought it there's no way my opponent is in any way to blame. I would count it as a missed opertunity and move on. Backtracking for a Madatory rule (like the Wierdboy mentioned or compulsory movement) is one thing, but a forgot bit of wargear?

How is backtracking for mandatory movement any different to backtracking for a mandatory wargear effect?

insaniak wrote:Nor is Mega Armour equipped to every Ork. I'm not seeing a difference.

Or are you seriously trying to argue that mandatory rules are less mandatory if the unit they apply to isn't as common?

Not arguing that at all. I'm saying every Mega Armour is slow, but not every Tau vehicle has flechette. If it came with every vehicle (i.e. not an upgrade) then it would be a fair comparison.

insaniak wrote:Mandatory rules don't apply just when the player who owns the codex remembers to apply them.

Personaly this is my issue. I don't know about you but I can't afford to buy every codex, until recently I didn't know the rules for Flechette, I still have no idea what one looks like on a vehicle. Even if I was an expert on Tau, unless my opponent tells me the vehicle has them I wouldn't know to apply this mandetory rule. Applying every mandetory action and expecting all players to know about them is fine in theory, but not in practise.

You sound like you've been gaming for a long time, so how would you handle it? In a tournament setting for example, at the end of the assault phase your opponent remebers that the Devilfish you destroyed in close combat had Flechette and he forgot to mention.

You go back and resolve it.

To not resolve it is breaking a rule.

DeathReaper wrote:You go back and resolve it.

To not resolve it is breaking a rule.

And if it was you that had forgotten? It's alot to ask an opponent to resolve it again and potentially loose half a squad after what was already a successful assault when as far as they knew they follwed the rules exactly.

I understand it's breaking a rule, but there is a point where following everything strickly just isn't practicle. I really don't see forgetting to use something and being told "too late" as being unreasonable. I fully expect to pay for my mistakes.

grendel083 wrote:[Not arguing that at all. I'm saying every Mega Armour is slow, but not every Tau vehicle has flechette.

Ever tau vehicle with flechettes does. Just as every ork with mega armour does.

I'm not seeing the distinction you're trying to create here.

If it came with every vehicle (i.e. not an upgrade) then it would be a fair comparison.

Does every Ork come with mega armour?

Personaly this is my issue. I don't know about you but I can't afford to buy every codex, until recently I didn't know the rules for Flechette, I still have no idea what one looks like on a vehicle. Even if I was an expert on Tau, unless my opponent tells me the vehicle has them I wouldn't know to apply this mandetory rule. Applying every mandetory action and expecting all players to know about them is fine in theory, but not in practise.

Whether or not you know about a rule has no bearing on whether or not it should apply.

Nobody expects you to buy every codex... but that doesn't exempt you from following the rules of the game. If you sign into a tennis match, and nobody told you that stepping over the line on the serve is a foul, would that exempt you from following that rule? Could you just ignore that foul ball because nobody told you until after you served?

Again, since this is what you seem to be missing: this isn't an optional rule that the Tau player can choose to impose. The fact that flechettes don't come standard on every vehicle is irrelevant. You can't ignore mandatory rules just because they don't apply to every unit in the codex... that way lies madness.

You sound like you've been gaming for a long time, so how would you handle it? In a tournament setting for example, at the end of the assault phase your opponent remebers that the Devilfish you destroyed in close combat had Flechette and he forgot to mention.

I already said how I would resolve it.

It's a mandatory rule. So long as going back and correcting the oversight wouldn't create more issues than it solves, I would go back and resolve it.

From where I sit - if you 'forget' to use the FD, and we have moved on to the next turn, it is too late. It's not my job to remember all your vehicles' capabilities.

To the OP Ork player - FD are just hard on Orks! But hey - give him credit for running Tau, they are a challenging army to use. It is one of their best anti-Ork weapon, It's cheap, too. Use 'ardboyz (4+ save) or Bikes, or best is Meganobz in a truck. Planks help - the attacking model probably takes some FD in the face, but not his mob. Lootas can glance it to keep it quiet. Or better yet just destroy the rest of his army and leave those tanks for last. If you are all mixed up with his suits he will be shy with the template scatter, and he can only vaporize one boy a turn with the solid shot! Go get 'im...