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Zweischneid wrote:
Old Necron fluff has FTL due to inertialess drive, which likely wouldn't work because even if a physical body would be rendered inertialess and thereby had its mass reduced to zero, it would still be limited to exactly the speed of light in classical relativity (e.g. the speed of light photons, which do, infact, move inertialess due to their lack of mass).

It is my understanding that it is not "impossible" to travel faster that light but rather if you do you experience time dilation which makes it pointless as from the perspective of the galaxy your actually taking a lot longer to get to your destination than you would otherwise.


That being said, given that the Necrons are masters of space and time (apparently more masters of time then space given recent fluff) they could probably use their time control equipment to cancel the time dilation effects out effectively allowing them to go FTL just by putting massive engines on a relatively small craft.

Void__Dragon wrote:
But of course it is perfectly fine for the space bugs to have FTL capabilities not relying on the Warp, but the space zombies can't, oh feth no.

Actually, most people seem to dislike that retcon. Tyranid Narvhals are also much slower than the Warp drives of other factions.

People love to bitch about the superiority of Necron naval fleets, but ignore that in the lore Necron ships never attacked in mass, and were always outnumbered. But feth no, Necrons aren't allowed to be pound for pound the best at something, even if lore-wise it makes perfect sense.

The fact that they were outnumbered so often never made sense in the old background. They should have just concentrated their forces, but were apparently not trying their hardest and instead were just playing around. Which was dumb. The old Necrons should've already won or been embroiled in a devastating civil war (between the Deceiver and the Nightbringer) by the 41st millenium but neither was suggested to be the case. The new background actually explains why they haven't destroyed every other faction already.

I also hate the Dolmen gates. The Necrons are supposed to be masters of the physical universe. They shouldn't even need Dolmen gates/the webway because by the time they destroyed the C'tan they were already Stargating around with their Night Scythes and Monoliths.

We have theories today on how FTL travel is possible. How did the Necrons not even begin to pick up on anything even remotely close to our theories?

Inertialess Drives made far more sense than the C'tan saying "oh hey guys, guess what? we can now use the webway. Sweet, huh?" Yeah, it went against the whole "dependency on the warp" thing, but the Necrons already went/go against many of the 40k conventions (like that whole "dying" thing, being entirely I2, having warp-negating fields on a planetary scale). Why should the Necrons have dependency on the warp or webway when the entirety of their fluff makes known their disdain for the Old Ones, their creations, and the Warp?

McNinja wrote:I also hate the Dolmen gates. The Necrons are supposed to be masters of the physical universe. They shouldn't even need Dolmen gates/the webway because by the time they destroyed the C'tan they were already Stargating around with their Night Scythes and Monoliths.

We have theories today on how FTL travel is possible. How did the Necrons not even begin to pick up on anything even remotely close to our theories?

Inertialess Drives made far more sense than the C'tan saying "oh hey guys, guess what? we can now use the webway. Sweet, huh?" Yeah, it went against the whole "dependency on the warp" thing, but the Necrons already went/go against many of the 40k conventions (like that whole "dying" thing, being entirely I2, having warp-negating fields on a planetary scale). Why should the Necrons have dependency on the warp or webway when the entirety of their fluff makes known their disdain for the Old Ones, their creations, and the Warp?

Because Ward can't write good grimdark. No really, he can't.
When he tries to be grimdark, he always does so in the most hamfisted, and illogical manner that will end up in the reader scratching his head over what the feth just happened.

This is why we got Draigo
This is why we got Noble Necrons
This is why we got Mephiston
This is why we got Bloodtide

I agree, and though I hate the Bloodtide (I'm assuming the one in the GK codex) like most Ultima fans hate Ultima 9, as in, to the point of me just not accepting the fact that it exists, I am not entirely put off by Noble Necrons. At least they all aren't robot Tyranids now.

I don't have the codex in hand, but if I remember correctly, the part talking about the Dolmen Gates (crappy name) explicitly mentioned that without them, the dynasties would be pretty much restricted to their systems. Not 100% sure though.

Also, the Flayed Ones and Deathmarks hide themselves in pocket dimensions, which is totally different from the Warp... which further gets me thinking that Necrons should, and could travel without having to use the Eldar's decaying transport system (webway). If pocket dimensions are possible, why oh why would they need something as dangerous and erratic as the Warp? Or even a safe part of it?

Noble Necrons are my reason for playing my Necrons "old fluff", using whatever good parts the new fluff had to offer (not much, indeed).

In the end I tend to think that all this did actually happen so that no army would look stronger than the Marines... no offense to Marine players intended.

angelshade00 wrote:I don't have the codex in hand, but if I remember correctly, the part talking about the Dolmen Gates (crappy name) explicitly mentioned that without them, the dynasties would be pretty much restricted to their systems. Not 100% sure though.

Also, the Flayed Ones and Deathmarks hide themselves in pocket dimensions, which is totally different from the Warp... which further gets me thinking that Necrons should, and could travel without having to use the Eldar's decaying transport system (webway). If pocket dimensions are possible, why oh why would they need something as dangerous and erratic as the Warp? Or even a safe part of it?

Exactly.
This is what baffles me about their reliance on the Dolmen Gates. They clearly have other means of transport, why should they waste their time with the webway?
I think this was Ward's attempt to be dark and edgy, but it just came across as being dumb.

What's even worse is that we know how to go FTL. If we had the power source (and money), we could make spaceships that go faster than light. In fact, one prominent theory is actually inertialess. It was on an episode of Sci-fi science with Michio Kaku. You basically pull and push against space, so you aren't moving, the space around you is. Or, you know, wormholes.

McNinja wrote:What's even worse is that we know how to go FTL. If we had the power source (and money), we could make spaceships that go faster than light. In fact, one prominent theory is actually inertialess. It was on an episode of Sci-fi science with Michio Kaku. You basically pull and push against space, so you aren't moving, the space around you is. Or, you know, wormholes.

Wormholes aren't actually FTL though.
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
It is possible to cheat by making wormholes, folding reality or something like that.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.

That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course . Possibly never too .

angelshade00 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.

That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .

No conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC.
I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.

That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .

In conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC.
I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest

what a bummer! I wouldn't worry I think it's easier to convince Matt Ward to stop writing fluff, than proving this.


On second thought...

I still think the gates make perfect sense. As a tactical weapon they are. They do not however, fit as a main FTL method. Its an example of a good idea that needed a bit more work and you know...freaking editors or someone else for input.

GW really needs to stop doing the one man Codex.

I'm not actually sure it was entirely a one man codex. It would take an entire team in order to organize the concepts and balance them out, compile the data and photographs etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if they allocated the task of writing the fluff to one man, however. Though they wouldn't give him complete control; I would expect that they gave Ward a direction and he followed it his way. Or something like that.

See even one man doing the fluff for a book that size is a no ,no. Someone needs to be in control and then it should be parceled out and then playtested and ran by who ever is in charge. all 40k codex seem to be one man jobs. Which is why there is so many issues with them.

I myself think the Necrons book had great Idea's and was pretty good over all, however it needed some work to flush things out better.

Hunterindarkness wrote:See even one man doing the fluff for a book that size is a no ,no. Someone needs to be in control and then it should be parceled out and then playtested and ran by who ever is in charge. all 40k codex seem to be one man jobs. Which is why there is so many issues with them.

I myself think the Necrons book had great Idea's and was pretty good over all, however it needed some work to flush things out better.

Agreed. And for someone to fix Ward's writing style.
I mean, it's like a bad fanfic!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:See even one man doing the fluff for a book that size is a no ,no. Someone needs to be in control and then it should be parceled out and then playtested and ran by who ever is in charge. all 40k codex seem to be one man jobs. Which is why there is so many issues with them.

I myself think the Necrons book had great Idea's and was pretty good over all, however it needed some work to flush things out better.

Agreed. And for someone to fix Ward's writing style.
I mean, it's like a bad fanfic!

Yep, see this is why you do things in groups and have editors. I mean he has some good idea's, the Gate for example, simply great idea for a tactile weapon. But he fell to in love with it and there was no one to bounce idea's off of or give other ideas. I think many of the "Issues" with ward would vanish if they had him as part of a team and not doing everything one man. I mean I liked the Necron book, but honestly it read like a rough draft then a finished product. If he had taken that and had a group of people to work with and such, it would have been a much better product.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.

That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .

No conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC.
I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest

[intense sarcasm incoming]Yeah, me too. Because Eintstein knew every facet of how our universe works, right? Oh wait, he just created a series of theories that have only barely held up thus far. It is entirely possible that one day Einstein is proved wrong in some way. He was brilliant, that's for darn sure, but one man did not solve the mysteries of how the universe works. And yeah, Wormholes technically aren't FTL, but hey. They get you places fast. In theory.

angelshade00 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.

That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course . Possibly never too .

It turned out that Neutrinos did not actually travel FTL. There was a extremely tiny time variation between where it started and where it ended, making it seem as though it got there before light did.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'm not actually sure it was entirely a one man codex. It would take an entire team in order to organize the concepts and balance them out, compile the data and photographs etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if they allocated the task of writing the fluff to one man, however. Though they wouldn't give him complete control; I would expect that they gave Ward a direction and he followed it his way. Or something like that.

Actually, underneath the Table of Contents, there's a listing of everyone who worked on the book. Unless GW just likes listing people's names in books they had no part in. I think Ward simply had oversight on everything, and because this wasn't a Grey Knight codex, it's a bit more lackluster in its creativity. I mean, look at the difference between the GK and Necron codex.

In the C:GK, there's pages of fluff, however well or poorly written, pages upon pages of unique wargear, a bunch of special characters (all with something unique about them), units that are unique in their abilities, etc. Someone, perhaps Ward, perhaps not, spent many hours crafting all of this, and even though it might be powerful or poorly written, someone clearly threw themselves fully into making this codex as awesome as they could.

The C:N is not like that. Yeah, there's fluff, and it's decent. But everything feels small and limited; from unit choices to wargear, it feels like there wasn't the sort of passion put into this codex that was put into C:GK.

I've written my own codex. I've got 45 pages of units, fluff, and wargear rolling about on my computer. But if there's one thing I've learned from writing that, it's that if you don't want to write something, but are forced to (whether you force yourself or a publisher/boss does), you'll eek something out, and it won't be all that good. Perhaps because of your basic skills as a writer it'll be better than average, but it won't compare to your best work. But if you do want to write, if you're "feeling it", you will write like there's no tomorrow. The more you care, the better it will be. And frankly, I doubt Matt Ward and co. (mostly Ward) cared that much about C:N. Or Ward pulled a George Lucas and had editors upon editors pouring over his GK codex, and when it turned out to be a hit, they let him have more free reign over C:N, and because there wasn't the same oversight and editing, Ward put out something between a travesty and a great codex.

McNinja wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.

That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .

No conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC.
I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest

Yeah, me too. Because Eintstein knew every facet of how our universe works, right? Oh wait, he just created a series of theories that have only barely held up thus far. It is entirely possible that one day Einstein is proved wrong in some way. He was brilliant, that's for darn sure, but one man did not solve the mysteries of how the universe works.

I'm not saying he did, and I am well aware that the theory of relativity is just a theory.
However, if it is dis-proven, that is effectively several hours of my life gone, and I will have to spend some more time learning it all over again.
Not that big of a deal, really...but it would be very irritating.

McNinja wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'm not actually sure it was entirely a one man codex. It would take an entire team in order to organize the concepts and balance them out, compile the data and photographs etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if they allocated the task of writing the fluff to one man, however. Though they wouldn't give him complete control; I would expect that they gave Ward a direction and he followed it his way. Or something like that.

Actually, underneath the Table of Contents, there's a listing of everyone who worked on the book. Unless GW just likes listing people's names in books they had no part in. I think Ward simply had oversight on everything, and because this wasn't a Grey Knight codex, it's a bit more lackluster in its creativity. I mean, look at the difference between the GK and Necron codex.

In the C:GK, there's pages of fluff, however well or poorly written, pages upon pages of unique wargear, a bunch of special characters (all with something unique about them), units that are unique in their abilities, etc. Someone, perhaps Ward, perhaps not, spent many hours crafting all of this, and even though it might be powerful or poorly written, someone clearly threw themselves fully into making this codex as awesome as they could.

The C:N is not like that. Yeah, there's fluff, and it's decent. But everything feels small and limited; from unit choices to wargear, it feels like there wasn't the sort of passion put into this codex that was put into C:GK.

I've written my own codex. I've got 45 pages of units, fluff, and wargear rolling about on my computer. But if there's one thing I've learned from writing that, it's that if you don't want to write something, but are forced to (whether you force yourself or a publisher/boss does), you'll eek something out, and it won't be all that good. Perhaps because of your basic skills as a writer it'll be better than average, but it won't compare to your best work. But if you do want to write, if you're "feeling it", you will write like there's no tomorrow. The more you care, the better it will be. And frankly, I doubt Matt Ward and co. (mostly Ward) cared that much about C:N. Or Ward pulled a George Lucas and had editors upon editors pouring over his GK codex, and when it turned out to be a hit, they let him have more free reign over C:N, and because there wasn't the same oversight and editing, Ward put out something between a travesty and a great codex.

That...makes a lot of sense actually. It would certainly explain the whole Dolmen Gate thing; he might have been too apathetic to make it so that it actually made some logically sense.

You know, I don't study Relativity (math is not my forte), so anyone who can actually do the math required gets massive props in my book. However, I've always approached science with a sense of wonder, and I would be thrilled to find out that while Einstein may not have been entirely right about Light being the fastest thing ever, there's something new and exceedingly awesome to find out about.

This is actually one of the smallest problems of the Newcrons, it's just a huge mess.

It was probably because of GW's attempts to downgrade the Necrons. A galactic-level threat to the new organic races became small self-warring localized kingdoms on the Eastern Fringe. He took away the C'tan, unity, and now their fleet capabilities. There was a deliberate attempt to make the Necrons less-threatening, more "human", and nobler. This is all connected to that.

I am not seeing how they are less a threat really. They still even if they only use the gates are a fleet threat, except now like the Eldra they can pop in and out at will.

They do not have the " auto I win " any more but are still a very real and powerful threat.

If that was their idea, then the Dolmen gate part was executed poorly. Now they're just Eldar in that respect.

What happened to making movement unique? IoM and co. (SoB, SM, and GKs) use warp travel, Eldar and DE use Webways, Tyranids use Narvhals, and Necrons use FTL travel and wormholes. I mean, how hard is that? The Necrons set up a system of gates, connected by wormholes, all across the galaxy. Over time, they lost some, some were destroyed, etc, etc. Bam. UNiqwue way of travel, wtill isolated. I don't care if Stargate did it first, it's a good freaking idea, and a better writer would have done so much more than "well, they can use the webway now."

Actually, you know what? Mine do. All of my Necrons are the 40k version of Stargate's Ancients, minus that whole "ascended" and "travelling from galaxy to galaxy because why not" thing.

I am totally down with a gate system. I mean they already have and use the tech on a smaller scale. I would not make it "gate" looking. More like an obelisk or priamid

I am gonna so steal that. I plan to use all three. The "FTL" for more IoM travel speed. A gate system for point A to Point B fast movement and the Gates for a tactical weapon to hit those who use the webways.

Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing how they are less a threat really. They still even if they only use the gates are a fleet threat, except now like the Eldra they can pop in and out at will.

They do not have the " auto I win " any more but are still a very real and powerful threat.

Come on now, let's admit they are way downgraded on almost all levels.

They were, as Harriticus said, a galaxy-level threat, and indeed the ultimate threat (kill the body, consume the soul), now they are just another baddie... more like neutral actually.

They took away the only god-level creatures in the whole setting that actually walked among the stars in physical form, the C'Tan, and not only replaced them with shadows of themselves (fluff-wise always) but actually made the Necrons not wanting to have anything to do with them.

And finally, the fleet threat was greatly toned down. At some point in the new codex it talks about some Space Marine super-duper hero who was humbled by Imotekh (don't remember the story right now) that his fleet ambushed him, and while Imotekh fled, the Marine's fleet destroyed all the enemy ships. I don't have the codex at hand so I don't remember exactly (I think it actually mentioned the Necron ships were too slow...). In the old book, there was some piece of fluff I recall that stated that it took half a fleet to take down a single Necron warship, and not a big one either, and at a great expense too.

So yes, they are downgraded, fluff-wise at least, on almost all fronts. Yes, maybe they have a little more depth to them, it's true, but I really believe all this could have been done without so much loss of fluff-power!

Thanks for staying tuned!!!

Actually, I would dare say the C'tan are still still pretty powerful. They may be weaker than before, but they can still warp reality.

And it was a large BT fleet against 1 Tombship, that may have been escorted by some smaller vessels.
Its not really clear, but it wasn't a whole necron fleet verses a whole BT fleet.

I also remembered a part were the fluff said that the Tyranid Hive Fleets actually avoided entire areas of space were Necrons were known to operate.

angelshade00 wrote:Come on now, let's admit they are way downgraded on almost all levels.

They were, as Harriticus said, a galaxy-level threat, and indeed the ultimate threat (kill the body, consume the soul), now they are just another baddie... more like neutral actually.

They're not a galaxy level threat anymore? Back before 5th we actually had no idea of how big the Necron threat was. there WAS NO INFORMATION. It could have been a galactic thrat, or it could have been hundreds of worlds (which was the largest pre-5th indication of how much territory the Necrons actually owned.) which would make them slightly more threatening than a single Hive Fleet. Serious, but not galaxy killing.

With 5th edition, we now know there are potentially MILLIONS of Necron tomb worlds, each with millions, if not billions of Necron Warriors. Trillions to quadrillions of warriors, each of which is considerably more powerful than your typical guardsman. Billions to trillions of Immortals. Countless other enemy threats. They want to relcaim the galaxy. They want to dissect living beings to study them and become living beings themselves. at BEST they may merely enslave us all to their whims, and given the way they treated their own race I'm not sure that's a better fate. Their science and engineering can do some truly insane things, up to and including time travel and causing stars to explode.

Seriously, what part of that does not scream GALAXY LEVEL THREAT? They're not all awake yet? well so what? The Tyranids are supposed to be a galaxy level trheat and THEY'RE NOT HERE YET either. Chaos is supposed to be a galaxy level threat but they havne't quite worked up to that scope either. If the Orks ever unite the galaxy is doomed, but they haven't quite managed that. I would also note that as far as old necrons go they weren't original, nor were the C'tan. The idea of some vast, powerful threat composed of soldiers that are superior to individual humans and can regenerate and want to eat us is not new: that could cover Chaos, Tyranids, and in certain ways the Dark Eldar.

They took away the only god-level creatures in the whole setting that actually walked among the stars in physical form, the C'Tan, and not only replaced them with shadows of themselves (fluff-wise always) but actually made the Necrons not wanting to have anything to do with them.

They did not 'take away' the C'tan. They're still around, still a possible threat (some are at least), they're just not the only bit of flavour text or personality that the Necrons have (not that oyu can say the old C'tan contributed much for personality aside form the Deceiver.) Hell I'm pretty sure the new codex even mentions that there might be Shards floating around that aren't captured or controlled. Enough of the fluff (old and new) certainly allow for that.

And as an aside: They DO have some forms of FTL, at least in limited form. We saw the Undying One in Dark Creed with his FTL. and the Necrons in HEllforged had FTL. The Cryptek in 'Fall of Damnos' was able to travel billions of metres in a nanosecond through his own powers. They HAVE other forms of FTL other than the Dolmen gates (as if wormhole teleprotation and however the heck flayers get around wasn't example enouhg.) but its not neccesarily a uniform threat.

angelshade00 wrote:
Come on now, let's admit they are way downgraded on almost all levels.

They were, as Harriticus said, a galaxy-level threat, and indeed the ultimate threat (kill the body, consume the soul), now they are just another baddie... more like neutral actually.

Still a massive galaxy wide threat. There are millions of Necron worlds, each more then a match for about anything that gets thrown at it. Only a tiny, I mean tiny fraction have even woken up. Once they all wake up, even if they are not allied with each other, they spell doom for any other race. They will take back what they had before, the will enslave or annihilate anyone that gets in the way and as it stands there isn't a single other power currently inside the glaxy that can really hope to stop them.

angelshade00 wrote:
They took away the only god-level creatures in the whole setting that actually walked among the stars in physical form, the C'Tan, and not only replaced them with shadows of themselves (fluff-wise always) but actually made the Necrons not wanting to have anything to do with them.

This is somewhat incorrect. They are still there, still the most powerful thing outside of a full on warp god and are now the Necron's bitches. They use them as slaves, however they damned well wish and if it acts up? Well it gets placed in a deep , dark closest for a few hundred years till it minds daddy. They are not gone, they are once more proof of Necron might and the level of power they can bring to bear.

angelshade00 wrote:
And finally, the fleet threat was greatly toned down. At some point in the new codex it talks about some Space Marine super-duper hero who was humbled by Imotekh (don't remember the story right now) that his fleet ambushed him, and while Imotekh fled, the Marine's fleet destroyed all the enemy ships. I don't have the codex at hand so I don't remember exactly (I think it actually mentioned the Necron ships were too slow...). In the old book, there was some piece of fluff I recall that stated that it took half a fleet to take down a single Necron warship, and not a big one either, and at a great expense too.

That was a single tomb ship vs the whole SM fleet. The necron ship was not even destroyed by the fleet, merely damaged and with the shields down they simply abandoned the ship and the Sm did little real damage then the lose of that ship,, which they auto piloted into a star. It wasn't a huge win, it was the act of a angry man that could not achieve the victory he craved. Fleet on fleet, the necrons win, hands down. Fleet on one tomb ship, the fleet wins, but not without loses.

"Doomed to isolation" is a subjective statement. And one that does not limit the Necrons to sublight travel. Just a much slower then "Crossing the Galaxy in a blink of an eye" speed.

Think of it like this:
The Necron intergalactic comunication Network is destroyed (5th Ed Rule Book). So they have lost the ability to comunicate large distances quikly. This means that they are relieing on the next fastest method to comunicate, the Webway. Which just needs to be faster then their FTL travel. The loss of the use of the webway limits their sphere of infulence more. Because now they are limited to their newly reduced FTL travel.

It's like this:

Ignoring the internet and radios.

The telecomunication networks are destroyed (Theory). We then relie on the mail system to send information. But then the mail system is also destroyed. Now we have to travel what ever distance there is to get the information to the next party.

That does not mean we are limited to walking speed. We could still drive or fly. But in that scenario most people would say that our cities would be isolated.

Expand that into a galactic scale, were travel times can be week, years, decades, ect. And we would have the Necron's situation without the Dolmen Gates.