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Unit1126PLL wrote:Let's do to the firewarriors what people are trying to do to the guard.

60pts of Guard at 48" get 8 shots of Str 7 AP 4 before any equivalent points of firewarriors can shoot back.

So hah.

This might turn out to be an academic point, but it turns out that it's not possible to get 8 shots of Str 7 AP 4 for 60 pts of IG Troops.

It is possible to get 2 Str 7 AP 4 shots for 60 points of Guard using a Guardsman Squad and I suppose you could say that for 50 points you could get 4 Str 7 AP 4 shots if you spliced out a Heavy Weapons Squad.

TedNugent wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Let's do to the firewarriors what people are trying to do to the guard.

60pts of Guard at 48" get 8 shots of Str 7 AP 4 before any equivalent points of firewarriors can shoot back.

So hah.

This might turn out to be an academic point, but it turns out that it's not possible to get 8 shots of Str 7 AP 4 for 60 pts of IG Troops.

It is possible to get 2 Str 7 AP 4 shots for 60 points of Guard using a Guardsman Squad and I suppose you could say that for 50 points you could get 4 Str 7 AP 4 shots if you spliced out a Heavy Weapons Squad.

He said that the firewarriors get two shots at 30" range before the guard can respond, which is one turn of movement and then the guard must wait another turn to shoot at max range.

I'm saying that the single autocannon gets eight shots at 48" range before the Firewarriors can respond, because it is 3 turns of movement and then the firewarriors must wait another turn to shoot at max range.

Honestly, Firewarriors are bad, but they don't hold a candle to rippers, for two reasons.

1) They don't kill themselves.

2) They are scoring.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Honestly, Firewarriors are bad, but they don't hold a candle to rippers, for two reasons.

1) They don't kill themselves.

2) They are scoring.

True. But you don't have to take rippers. You get no choice with Firewarriors.

And the Guard examples are flawed. If Firewarriors could have some embedded special weapons and Chimera-priced transports with fire points, they'd immediately jump from the bottom they are to be near the top.

Ailaros wrote:Lol, firewarriors? Give me a break. Yeah, a S5 AP5 small arm that can shoot at 30" away on a unit that doesn't need cover saves against small arms is "bad".

Do the math and you will realise that spessmuhreens shoot just as well with their bolters.
Of course they have a bunch of extrarules, free ( or at least very cheap, depending on the weapon ) special and heavy weapons, much better stats and powerarmour. Oh, and nobody buys spacemarines for their bolters.
The extra range is utterly irrelevant mainly because there is nothing useful to shoot at these ranges ( infantry is still in their transports, the heavy support is too far away ).

So yes, the poor firewarrior squad remains one of the worst troopchoices around. Firewarriors kill nothing of value, survive nothing ( oh yes, t3 and carapace is so impressive these days ) and are, on top of this, burdened by their high cost. Their only use is to make the almost equaly bad Devilfish scoring, just like Dire Avengers, but even worse.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Termagaunts. Over-priced, near useless in CC, mediocre at range and vulnerable to any shooting; thats before you consider paying through the nose for synapse support. I've had hoardes of them bounce of guardsmen.

Two squads of 20 devourer equipped gaunts in drop pods? Deep Strike within 18 inches and reign down 60 s4 shots per pod?

Edit added squad size.

Unit1126PLL wrote:And I would like to see firewarriors ever take out a Land Raider with shooting.

Guard troops do it all the time (YAY SPECIAL AND HEAVY WEAPONS).

Right, so we come to a point where there are some things that infantry squads can do that firewarriors can't, and there are some things that firewarriors can do that guardsmen can't.

Savageconvoy wrote:You can't just compare Guardsmen vs Firewarriors and say that Firewarriors are therefore good.

Then you can't just compare Guardsmen vs Firewarriors and say that Firewarriors are therefore bad...

Unit1126PLL wrote:60pts of Guard at 48" get 8 shots of Str 7 AP 4 before any equivalent points of firewarriors can shoot back.

In a straight-up firefight between a guard squad with an autocannon and their points in firewarriors, the firewarriors are still going to win easily.

KingDeath wrote:Do the math and you will realise that spessmuhreens shoot just as well with their bolters.

Space marines actually being not too shabby at shooting. Plus, there are plenty of things out there that bolters will struggle against that the +1S gives a firewarrior a chance to handle.

They don't need to have guns that can dominate every possible unit on the board in order to still be worth taking.

bmoleski wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Termagaunts. Over-priced, near useless in CC, mediocre at range and vulnerable to any shooting; thats before you consider paying through the nose for synapse support. I've had hoardes of them bounce of guardsmen.

They're pretty useful when used in conjunction with Tervigons

Yeah, tervigons on their own are rather pants as well, but in the context of tervigons, they're pretty mean.

Especially if you're lucky with them. We have a guy at our FLGS that takes two or three tervigons every game and I swear he hasn't ever managed to have one shut down before turn 4, and he always has one that manages to make it to the end of the game still pooping out the little bastards. I saw a game he played against someone where he took three tervigons and in one turn had his tervigons put out 14 (no doubles) 15 (no doubles) and 18 for a total of 48 new infantry models on the board in a single turn! I also played against him once where my opponent had two tervigons throw down 67 little dudes in 4 turns. It's pretty hard to kill a tervigon in the best of times, but with all those little critters in your way, it's practically impossible.

Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, tervigons on their own are rather pants as well, but in the context of tervigons, they're pretty mean.

Especially if you're lucky with them. We have a guy at our FLGS that takes two or three tervigons every game and I swear he hasn't ever managed to have one shut down before turn 4, and he always has one that manages to make it to the end of the game still pooping out the little bastards. I saw a game he played against someone where he took three tervigons and in one turn had his tervigons put out 14 (no doubles) 15 (no doubles) and 18 for a total of 48 new infantry models on the board in a single turn! I also played against him once where my opponent had two tervigons throw down 67 little dudes in 4 turns. It's pretty hard to kill a tervigon in the best of times, but with all those little critters in your way, it's practically impossible.

Yeah plus upgrades on your Tervigon means upgrades on your gaunts! For free! And you can take Tervigons as troops to a maximum of 5 in your standard army! That's a lot of gaunts.....not so useless now huh? lol

Not going to lie I'm surprised guardians haven't been said more.They are 1 pt less than a kabalite and have a worse ws,bs, initiative and a worse weapon.

Ailaros wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Do the math and you will realise that spessmuhreens shoot just as well with their bolters.

Space marines actually being not too shabby at shooting. Plus, there are plenty of things out there that bolters will struggle against that the +1S gives a firewarrior a chance to handle.

They don't need to have guns that can dominate every possible unit on the board in order to still be worth taking.

First, Spacemarines are adequate at shooting because they can take cheap special/ heavy weapons and not because bolters are particularly good weapons.
Second, against everything up to t4 spacemarine bolters (thanks to BS 4, even at t5 the difference is rather marginal, the gap only starts to truly wide at t6 ) are just as good as firewarriors. If you ever come to the point of having to use S5 weapons against monstrous creatures or light transports then you might wish to reconsider your heavy support/ elite choices.
Third, unless a unit is truly specialised or cheap then it does in fact need guns to deal with every possible unit on the board to be worth taking. Since firewarriors are expensive yet deeply mediocre at taking out infantry and almost utterly unable to deal with vehicles, they are not worth taking.

Of course, unlike firewarriors spacemarines are well able to use their weapons within rapid fireing range without getting utterly annihilated in cc the following turn.


sm bolters vs fw pulse rifles

4/9 chance to wound t3 ( 2/3x2/3)sm
5/12 chance to wound t3( 1/2x5/6)fw

1/3 chance to wound t4 ( 2/3x1/2)sm
1/3 chance to wound t4 ( 1/2x2/3)fw

2/9 chance to wound t5 ( 2/3x1/3) sm
1/4 chance to wound t5 ( 1/2 x1/2) fw

1/9 chance to wound t6 ( 2/3x1/6)sm
1/6 chance to wound t6 ( 1/2x1/3)fw

Rocky1 wrote:Not going to lie I'm surprised guardians haven't been said more.They are 1 pt less than a kabalite and have a worse ws,bs, initiative and a worse weapon.

Agreed, Guardians are pretty weak for their points cost.

Also, as stated somewhere above, Blood Claws are pretty crappy. WS 3 is.....meh.

I'd have to agree with Fire Warriors being the worst Troops choice.

They're overcosted, BS 3, Armor +4, and have I2 and WS2 and LD8.

They just can't compete in 5th edition. A full squad of twelve is a twenty-man guard blob WITH heavy bolters. And that's not even with a Shas'ui leading them!

Stop smoking the Obscura Ailaros!

Edit, never mind, utterly wrong.

CSM possessed. 26 points each, can't shoot, can't buy any upgrades, and there's no guarantee they'll even get an ability for their daemonkin roll.

Durza wrote:CSM possessed. 26 points each, can't shoot, can't buy any upgrades, and there's no guarantee they'll even get an ability for their daemonkin roll.

Those are elites not troops

Oh yeah. I keep forgetting how bad ass Pulse Rifles and Firewarriors are. Thats why you always see 4x12 squads in every Tau list and nobody plays Marines or Guard anymore. I keep forgetting that this is 2012 and that this happens all the time.

Ailaros wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:And I would like to see firewarriors ever take out a Land Raider with shooting.

Guard troops do it all the time (YAY SPECIAL AND HEAVY WEAPONS).

Right, so we come to a point where there are some things that infantry squads can do that firewarriors can't, and there are some things that firewarriors can do that guardsmen can't.

Like what?

Seriously, what can a squad of Fire Warriors do that guardsmen can't?

Don't say "they can kill transports with their basic gun" IG squads do the same for cheaper. Granted it isn't with their lasguns but with the special weapon spam IG can do you really can't pu the Pulse Rifle as a selling point.

Fire Warriors are easily 4 points too expensive and the mandatory choice of them gets annoying.


Even if Fire Warriors dropped to 6 points each and we no longer mandatory I think people would take Kroot each and every time.

Easily Rippers

Raise you guys one...

Worst unit in the game?

usmcmidn wrote:Raise you guys one...

Worst unit in the game?

Ethereal. Debate over.

usmcmidn wrote:Raise you guys one...

Worst unit in the game?

Ethereal
Vespid
Kroot Hounds
Priests
Tech-Priest Enginseers
Ogryns
Ratlings

In that order.

Wait, Kroot Hounds are bad?

I have always heard and seen them being quite viable additions to a kroot unit.

Savageconvoy wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:Raise you guys one...

Worst unit in the game?

Ethereal. Debate over.

Raise you one...

Aun'va

kinratha wrote:I would have to say ripper warms and FW. I find it funny that a Squad of IG conscripts beat a FW squad in CC ....

I have to ask? Why? In the fluff the tau literally think humans are brutal close combat monsters. Not space marines, Humans. It is kind of sad that the Tau empire values its human allies for their close combat potential. Tau should always remain the worst close combat army in the game to the point where even other shooty armies should think it is advantageous to be in close combat to prevent the tau from firing back. But in order for that to happen tau need much better shooting first.

IDK. I'm almost sure the worst unit in the game is the Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Squad...

...only because they suffer from an acute case of nonexistence.

usmcmidn wrote:Worst unit in the game?

Spawn.

Spawn.

Spawn.

A unit that can not shoot in the shooting phase. A unit that has neither an armor save NOR an invul save (that's right, no saves), that are "beast" type, which means you can't put them in a transport, are slow and purposeful, so they always trudge through difficult terrain, even in clear terrain, have a random, unreliable number of regular old close combat attacks...

... and you have absolutely no control over where they move in the movement phase. None whatsoever.

... for 40 points apiece...


Worst. Unit. Ever.

Aun'va, a model that is both useless and hideous.

There's always Commander Farsight, the supposed anti-Ork melee specialist of the Tau 'dex who can get krumped from a single Power Klaw wound.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Termagaunts. Over-priced, near useless in CC, mediocre at range and vulnerable to any shooting; thats before you consider paying through the nose for synapse support. I've had hoardes of them bounce of guardsmen.

Are... are you fething kidding me?

They're mediocre in combat, yes. but they are great for their points. At 5 points a model you can potentially field 180 of them for just 900 points. IF you think about it, 90 of those(600 points) would absolutely wipe in conjunction with 3 tervigons. You would absolutely bone in objectives games

Vaktathi wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Not necessarily bad, but outclassed:
-Blood Angels Tac Marines
-Blood Claws

Only compared to their alternatives. Compared to their opponents, they really aren't that bad.


My top picks would be Fire Warriors, Conscripts, Penal Legion, and Eldar Guardians.

Rippers and Gretchin have some synergistic uses that can make them somewhat useful enough for their cost in some ways at least.

"Only compared to their alternatives" is enough to make them a bad choice. It's like Rippers: Potentially they have a place, but they are outclassed by tervigons and termagants.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:rippers, and guardians.

No arguments, though if guardians were 6 points a model, we'd all be singing a different tune.

TedNugent wrote:Gretchin?

Can there be any other?

You were serious...

Gretchin are amazing. I love them more than I love a block of cheese. (by that, of course I am referring to blood angels Storm Raven's)

Ailaros wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:Worst unit in the game?

Spawn.
A unit that can not shoot in the shooting phase. A unit that has neither an armor save NOR an invul save (that's right, no saves), that are "beast" type, which means you can't put them in a transport, are slow and purposeful, so they always trudge through difficult terrain, even in clear terrain, have a random, unreliable number of regular old close combat attacks...

... and you have absolutely no control over where they move in the movement phase. None whatsoever.

... for 40 points apiece...

Worst. Unit. Ever.

Unless the spawn causes other units on its side to take a moral test, average of ld7, or run off the board when they die then they are still leagues ahead of the ethereal.

Oh and at T3 with no save of any kind.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Termagaunts. Over-priced, near useless in CC, mediocre at range and vulnerable to any shooting; thats before you consider paying through the nose for synapse support. I've had hoardes of them bounce of guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Savageconvoy wrote:You can't just compare Guardsmen vs Firewarriors and say that Firewarriors are therefore good. Guard get upgrades and numbers. Firewarriors get neither. And giving FW the ONLY situation that they stand a chance in, long range shooting vs T3 blob, is kinda BS.

+1 that situation will only ever occur if your opponent is playing for the lols and tries to bayonet charge you. I've tried it, actually and it was pretty fun. Turned into a complete rout and my army was wiped out but a thoroughly enjoyable game.

I agree. +1 to Termagaunts.