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chaos0xomega wrote:Source please? Also, worth noting that one should never take the word of a daemon/ruinous power at face value...

Don't click this spoiler if you don't want to have ATS spoiled for you:

Kanluwen wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:I use the Astral Claws as an example to highlight that not everything in the Imperium is black and white, which alot of people seem to think "kill everything that isn't imperial or possibly tainted" is always the case? Surely Lysander and Mephiston should have been put down? There is an awful lot of exceptions to the Imperial Hard line that alot of people seem to shout "HERESY" at everything, the fluff seems to highlight more exceptions and strange bendings of the rules.

Ehhhh...there's a lot of exceptions and bent rules--but it tends to be at the "man on the ground" level, not the administration level.
I can't see the High Lords countenancing experiments with Geneseed from the Traitor Legions--simply because the Custodes are privy to their day to day operations, and the Custodes know the Emperor locked that stuff away for a reason.
An Inquisitor with little oversight who got samples from dead Traitor Astartes? Maybe. But I could also see said Inquisitor being shot in the head by anyone who finds out about it.

As a sidenote, I'm not sure why Mephiston would be put down? He might be obscenely powerful, but he isn't "tainted" in any real sense.
Lysander was put through a series of very strict trials before he was let go without being shot in the face.

What you and mwnciboo said is part*** of the reason the plot from Space Marine bothers me so much. The idea that a Marine Captain would just be taken into custody by some random Inquisitor is absurd, the reasons for it even more absurd (a new Marine saw him survive contact with a warp weapon), and the threat the Inquisitor makes (the Ultramarines will be forever disgraced... yeah... pick on the single most well known and celebrated chapter in Imperial history... good luck with that sunshine, tell us how that goes) is just out of this friggin' world with how absurd it is.

To boil it down contact with the warp doesn't = purge, which is why I don't buy the idea that traitor geneseed is inherently broken.



***The other part being that game's strange relationship with what the Codex Astartes is. The whole "The Codex Astartes does not support that action" is a load of baloney. There are sections from a book I'd like to quote directly that explain why I dislike that part of Space Marine so much, but unfortunately I'll have to wait until said book is published. Suffice to say it, the Codex Astartes is far greater than a paint-by-numbers/IPO diagram approach to warfare...

Y'know, that part of the plot of Space Marine didn't bother me too much.

Why? Because Titus had a choice of openly defying the Inquisitor, and having his name cleared later, or just playing along and letting the Inquisitor think he's really in charge.

Kanluwen wrote: As a sidenote, I'm not sure why Mephiston would be put down? He might be obscenely powerful, but he isn't "tainted" in any real sense.

Mephiston is tainted, how did he survive? even the Daemon M'kar confirmed it. I think that counts as Tainted.

Whatever a daemon says it can't be taken seriously, as they are at the end of the day daemons.

There are clear advantages to using the geneseed stored from Traitor Legions. Since the decision would naturally be made at the very highest of levels and kept there, issues of it being heretical or the like are moot. Remember, in the draconian structure of the Imperium, the chain of command effectively dictates all. If the top, TOP people decide it is fine, then it is hard to over rule, unless you happen to be sitting in a particularly shiny chair.

While there certainly would be objectors in various Imperial factions, chances are those factions would never even get a whisper of the secret. For such a massive organization, the Imperium is pretty damn good at information control.

But, as for the advantages. Using traitor seed allows a greater deal of control over the new chapter. Using the seed from loyalists always runs the potential of deference being given to the corresponding Primarch, or splitting cultural influences. While the truth of seed origin could be kept from any new chapter, traitor gene seed would be a complete blank slate.

By the same token, use of traitor seed is good for information control. Most chapters, even if they don't know how much seed the Adeptus Mechanicus has stored, will have a good idea how much they are growing. However, with the traitor seed, nobody but the relevant AdMech and other parties has any idea what the reserves are like.

In addition, I'd argue that using traitor seed can make it easier to tailor-to-purpose. While many of the original legions, traitor and loyalist, had particular strengths that seemed as much, if not more, due to nature than nuture, relevant loyalist seed may seem to have either lost a bit of its niche over time, or be much harder to come by due to the fates of some of the legions. However, if you have a pool of untapped, say, Night Lords seed, you could make a chapter dedicated to enforcing edicts from Terra through raw fear, perhaps a bit easier. If you want a chapter willing to march intractably in to any opposition, some Death Guard seed may arguably produce a better product. And so on.

Is it a bit presumptious on the part of the High Lords to do this sort of thing? Most definitely. Would, if it ever were uncovered, stand a good chance of causing severe internal conflicts? More than likely. (I can't imagine the Space Wolves, already at odds with the Imperium's power structure, taking to kindly to finding out a loyalist chapter is using TS gene seed. Or the Fists and Templars finding out that there's some chapter bumping about with Iron Warrior's seed powering it. Or elements of the Inquistion, Ecclesiarchy, and Sororitas, would end well.)

I don't think the concept is really being over-done. I just don't think its that big a deal. It can be argued, all it takes is a little arrogance and a lot of secrecy, and the IoM has both in ready supply. Heck, for all we know, a lot of those "we THINK its Ultra Marines, because there's so damn many, but we aren't sure" chapters could be derived from one traitor legion or another. Maybe they even tell them that they are an Ultramarines derived seed.

I mean, the only ones you could really trust would be chapters with a clear genetic fingerprint from a loyalist chapter, or chapters that were directly derived from loyalists chapters- Crimson Fists, Black Templars, etc.

Interesting discussion. What strikes me is that some of the Marine chapters in the FW Badar War Part 2 book seem to have their backgrounds mysteriously vague or have faced trouble pasts. For example the discussed Minotaurs. The Star Phantoms and their strange fascination with Death and bizarre Funeral Rites. The Exorcists used as a tool by the Ordo Malleus created during the 13th "Dark Founding".

It could easily be supposed that those other two chapters, and perhaps more, were created from bizarre or clandestine experiments with Traitor stock. (Death Guard for the Star Phantoms for example)

BluntmanDC wrote:Whatever a daemon says it can't be taken seriously, as they are at the end of the day daemons.

In that case we can pay no Creedence to Tzeentch and the Thousands Sons connection can we?

GentlemanGuy wrote:Traitor geneseed is not the cause of the mutations and traitorous elements in the traitor legions. It is either their loyalty to their primarchs (sons of horus, word bearers, thousand sons) they felt used (Iron Warriors) or they were on that road by traitors in their midst (death guard). The Genesees of the traitor legions have remained surprisingly pure and could be usedagain and probably has been

Yes and no

IA: Codex Astartes:
The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.

GentlemanGuy wrote:An example of a pure geneseed from a traitor legion is the Night Lords. The Legion itself became full of murderers and rapists because of where the majority were from (Nostramo) but the geneseed is considered purer then some of the loyalists geneseed

From a Chaos Legion point of view it is 'surprisingly pure' as the IA article on the Night Lords puts it. But it is still a Geneseed from a traitor Legion. Honestly I don't think the High Lords of Terra would risk raising new chapters from the Legions that tore the Imperium apart just in case there were any flaws with the Geneseed. They have enough Space Marine Chapters go rogue/traitor as it is using loyalist geneseed. It's possible sure but highly unlikely if you ask me.

The Cursed Founding seems to have had some interference by Fabius Bile, possibly the founding was done with good intentions and new ideas and Bile saw an opportunity to add his work to it.

mwnciboo wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Whatever a daemon says it can't be taken seriously, as they are at the end of the day daemons.

In that case we can pay no Creedence to Tzeentch and the Thousands Sons connection can we?

I was about to say that. Never trust what Tzeentch says. Magnus was desperate for a cure for the flesh change, it was a tad convenient that Tzeentch said he did it yet couldn't/wouldn't stop it even after Magnus began to serve him.

Where is the Mephiston is tainted fluff?

I remember a Chapter Approved article in WD years ago that detailed some of the chapters of the Cursed Founding. I think something similar happened for the Dark Founding, I can't remember if the article covered this one though. I'm going to need to dig out the article in question when I get home but I think it's implied that traitor geneseed was used for the Dark founding, and experiments with mixing geneseeds were used for the Cursed founding.

Neither of these ended particularly well and so I don't believe they were ever tried again.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'll try and dig out this article. It had some info on the Legion of the Damned, amongst other chapters. In fact, the Minotaurs might even have been covered in the article....

Medium of Death wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:Whatever a daemon says it can't be taken seriously, as they are at the end of the day daemons.

In that case we can pay no Creedence to Tzeentch and the Thousands Sons connection can we?

I was about to say that. Never trust what Tzeentch says. Magnus was desperate for a cure for the flesh change, it was a tad convenient that Tzeentch said he did it yet couldn't/wouldn't stop it even after Magnus began to serve him.

But it's all part of Tzeentch grand scheme, by the time Tzeentch told Magnus that they were already his, they were and there wasn't anything that Magnus could do. His and his Legions fate were sealed as soon as the pact was made. Tzeentch had nothing to lose by revealing the part of the Thousand Sons story, up to that point.

Even the Rubric is part of his grand plan, when Magnus was going to destroy the Sorcerers that had helped Ahriman Tzeentch simply said "Magnusss, you would ssmash my pawns to readily".

It's part of the Great Game.

But as the saying goes.

All Daemons are falsehood. They are lies given the shape of creatures by the power of Chaos. Fear the Daemons of Khorne for this reason and then fear them once more.
- Inquisitor Covenant

Why Khorne though I am not sure

Tibbsy wrote:I remember a Chapter Approved article in WD years ago that detailed some of the chapters of the Cursed Founding. I think something similar happened for the Dark Founding, I can't remember if the article covered this one though. I'm going to need to dig out the article in question when I get home but I think it's implied that traitor geneseed was used for the Dark founding, and experiments with mixing geneseeds were used for the Cursed founding.

Neither of these ended particularly well and so I don't believe they were ever tried again.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'll try and dig out this article. It had some info on the Legion of the Damned, amongst other chapters. In fact, the Minotaurs might even have been covered in the article....

Yeah it's the Cursed Founding IA: Article that says a few bits and has

Less sympathetic observers point out that the chapter appears every bit as resilient as the Death Guard Traitor Legion.

Mentioned about the Sons of Antaeus and the Minotaurs have 'Berserker' as a special rule.

But Fabius Bile had some involvement in this Founding, so could be his grubby paws that made things go this way.

@Medium of Death. Mephiston details here.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mephiston#.T4wY17M3R40

It's also hinted at in the Blood Angel Codex Edition.

Tibbsy wrote:I remember a Chapter Approved article in WD years ago that detailed some of the chapters of the Cursed Founding. I think something similar happened for the Dark Founding, I can't remember if the article covered this one though. I'm going to need to dig out the article in question when I get home but I think it's implied that traitor geneseed was used for the Dark founding, and experiments with mixing geneseeds were used for the Cursed founding.

Neither of these ended particularly well and so I don't believe they were ever tried again.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'll try and dig out this article. It had some info on the Legion of the Damned, amongst other chapters. In fact, the Minotaurs might even have been covered in the article....

This is wrong.

The Dark Founding is so named due to the fact that there are no records
As already said several times there is NO mention at all about the cursed founding using traitor genestock


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DrimGark wrote:There are clear advantages to using the geneseed stored from Traitor Legions. Since the decision would naturally be made at the very highest of levels and kept there, issues of it being heretical or the like are moot

This makes little sence as all foundings are decided by the High Council and the High Council only, which includes a member of the inquisition.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Tibbsy wrote:I remember a Chapter Approved article in WD years ago that detailed some of the chapters of the Cursed Founding. I think something similar happened for the Dark Founding, I can't remember if the article covered this one though. I'm going to need to dig out the article in question when I get home but I think it's implied that traitor geneseed was used for the Dark founding, and experiments with mixing geneseeds were used for the Cursed founding.

Neither of these ended particularly well and so I don't believe they were ever tried again.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'll try and dig out this article. It had some info on the Legion of the Damned, amongst other chapters. In fact, the Minotaurs might even have been covered in the article....

This is wrong.

The Dark Founding is so named due to the fact that there are no records
As already said several times there is NO mention at all about the cursed founding using traitor genestock

I thought I might have been mis-remembering about the Dark founding... I didn't get the chance to root through all my WDs last night so I couldn't check myself.

Although as Pilau Rice said above; this is a quote from the article in question about the Cursed founding.

Less sympathetic observers point out that the chapter appears every bit as resilient as the Death Guard Traitor Legion.

The chapter in question being the Sons of Antaeus.

So not exactly proof, but an interesting turn of phrase that was likely intentional.

Edited to fix quote... Stupid fething thing...