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jy2 wrote:I actually played against a scythe-spam list run by Janthkin, a very good player.

His list (at 1850):

Nemesor Zandrehk (he decided to play-test Zandrehk instead of Immotehk)
Royal Court - 3x Lance-teks, 1x Pulse, 1x Lord w/Mindshackles and Warscythe

10x Immortals - Gauss, Night Scythe (Zandrehk and Lord here)
5x Warriors- Night Scythe
5x Warriors- Night Scythe
5x Warriors- Night Scythe

10x Scarabs

Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Monolith

jy2 wrote:Janthkin's necrons beat my nids 8-7 after a hard-fought battle. If only my 3 hive guards managed to wreck his night scythe on Turn 6 (I got 3 pens but rolled 1's and 2's on the damage charts), it would've been a draw. I felt I had a superior list and more experience than my opponent, but I've gotta give him props for beating me with his very first game with the necrons.

Hmm, so would you say the Scythes contributed to how well his army did, or the things INSIDE the Scythes?
(basically, if he had spent the points on something else, do you think he would have done better or worse?)

skoffs wrote:Hmm, so would you say the Scythes contributed to how well his army did, or the things INSIDE the Scythes?
(basically, if he had spent the points on something else, do you think he would have done better or worse?)

It was a combination of both - scythe shooting and Zandrehk's unit. But basically, it boiled down to the dice:

- Swarmy had a 50/50 chance of killing Zandrehk's unit or himself.

- My t-fex shot at his monolith all game but just couldn't kill it. I kept on shaking/stunning the damn thing.

- Hive guards just weren't killing scythes fast enough. I ignored their cover and should have downed at least 1 each turn per full unit of hive guards. Again, I wasn't rolling well.

- Biovore blast kept scattering. Otherwise, I would've probably wiped out all his warriors.


While my opponent played great, I think it was a favorable matchup for me and that I should have won. The performance of the scythes was just as I suspected....they did a lot of damage here and there. What was unsuspected though, was Zandrehk and his immortals. They did better than I thought. Overall, scythes did perhaps 60% of the damage whereas the units inside around 40%. I was expecting more of a 70/30 ratio (and a loss for necrons).

I would not make conclusions from a single game. The dice can make very strange things.

Regarding NS spam, I was one of the first to suggest it on dakkadakka shortly after the codex came out and proposed that such lists would make the necrons the new DE, especially with the tesla destructor scoring 5.33 hits on average. You just have to have enough of them, so spam NS and 5x warriors. Their transport rule looks specifically designed for spammage - whatever gets destroyed has its warriors sent to reserve to walk in onto the home objectives. Whatever is not destroyed can deposit the warriors at key locations.

One tip: don't drop the warriors where you want them to be. Drop them someplace safe from where they can make it in time to where you want them to be.

So, with that basic build in place, how do we build the rest of the army? It has to support the NS by providing alternative threats and drawing fire from the fragile AV11. I think CCBs and ABs are the way to go., because of their low cost, high threat, and AV13. Yes, the opponent can decide to blow the NS out of the sky, but then he faces 3x AB and 2x CCB, and other goodies. Here is what I would do:

2x Overlord with scythe in CCB
2x pulsetek
5 warriors in GA
2x 6 wraiths with 3x coils at least
10 scarabs
3x AB

Fill the rest with (5x warrior +NS) to point capacity. This build protects the crypteks until needed and gives you 5 vehicles with AV13 that left to their own devices will pile up the pain. The scarabs are a cheap insurance against AV14 as well as a terror factor and a tarpit unit. The wraiths need no introduction and would be great mop-up for tesla chow. This is a truly "Necron terror" list.

I like Imotekh for CC lists but this one is a hybrid list, so I'd advise against him. Besides, the overlords in the CCBs and the pulseteks are more reliable and do not produce problems on our turns of shooting. After two turns of night fighting rules for the opponent, he must be already largely broken while we are mostly intact, so 2 pulseteks is best.

Another thing to add about NS is that they are unreliable in small numbers. I've had great games and horrible games at small scale exactly because a single shot from someplace can take them out. So, the spam will only work at high point values, where you can buy all the terrifying distractions.

Necrontyr40k wrote:2x Overlord with scythe in CCB
2x pulsetek
5 warriors in GA
2x 6 wraiths with 3x coils at least
10 scarabs
3x AB

lol, shouldn't that really just be the core of EVERY Necron list?

but seriously though, you wouldn't consider Doomscythes?

skoffs wrote: lol, shouldn't that really just be the core of EVERY Necron list?

It is a very solid core, but not for EVERY list. I've been running an Imotekh list that does just fine without lords in CCB. It also includes spyders for scarab farming. It does not have the ark and obviously the pulseteks.

but seriously though, you wouldn't consider Doomscythes?

The crux of the problem is 5th vs 6th edition. In 5th, they are too fragile and will die fast. In 6th, if we believe the leaks, there will be a new characteristic called Evasion, which is dependent on speed, and against which shooters need to roll ballistic skill. Also, vehicles get a WS0 when stationary but WS10 when moving. This means 6th will be Captain Kirk's edition and "speed is life".

Taking into account NS and DoomS are supersonic and flyers, they would probably have ridiculous evasion scores, so they would be much harder to hit. So, effectively, they might be better protected than AV13 when you do the mathhammer. This also means CCB's will be even better than now, because they are fast skimmers, while still having the quantum shielding. Incidentally, this will play into the hands of DE as well, so they will likely be less of a glass cannon.

The future looks good for Necrons.

I disagree that Annihilation Barges belong in a Scythe list for a couple of reasons. Firstly they bring nothing but more Tesla destructors which while great, breeds more of the same weaknesses (namely MeQ with FnP, TeQ with or without FnP and AV12/13 spam). They are also slower than the rest of the army, thus target saturation becomes harder, meaning Scythes go down faster.

I get the feeling you are writing off Doom Scythes without actually giving them a try. Before I used them I had the same reservations. Great damage output yet barely any survivability. However after seeing jy2's reports of his MTO list in action I decided to give them a shot and see how they worked. I got a lot out of them. They are most definitely a finesse unit which requires skill to use, but you must also know their primary job is to be aggressive and at some point (most likely Turn 2 or 3) will die. Throwing them forward (with a 4+ cover save) with a host of other threats gets the most out of them, though the quality of those threats is also key:

CC Barges - Much harder to penetrate due to AV13 and should also be getting a 4+ cover save. 2/3 Doom Scythes will normally be the primary target for most anti-tank weaponry but after they have both been dealt with how many will be left to deal with the AV13? Enough? Probably not...

Wraiths - Help to draw multiple S8+ shots. A couple of Psyfleman dreads or unit of Longfangs will make short work out of a Doom Scythe cover save or not. Something needs to draw those S8 away. Turn 2 Wraiths are probably charging, thus those Long fangs need to shoot at them ASAP, adding a degree of survivability that you just can't put a price tag on.

Night Fight - If you get first turn and play aggressively with your Scythes you are looking at a first turn alpha in some cases. If not use Night Fight and your Supersonic move to get to a flank and deny some return fire. If you get 2nd turn Night Fight your way to safety.

I am not writing them off. The death ray is very nice and can turn parking lots into car dumpsters. But, they have survivability problems in 5th edition, which hopefully will be resolved in 6th.

Also, I do not like big models of fragile units, because they make big soft targets. IG lists using 3 vendettas have trouble navigating any decently constructed map just because of the combination of their physical size and the length of their pole. If DoomS is anywhere near that in size, I would simply not spam them. And besides, the kits will likely be ~$70 with tax. That's too much. I'd rather have them the size of an annihilation barge, especially as they have a single pilot and no life-support systems.

Frankly, this whole idea of adding large flyer models to the game, while keeping the size of the table the same is rather questionable IMO. It seems meant to push players into Apocalypse, so that more money is spent on more models.

Regarding distracting heavy weapons with wraiths off the NS/DoomS, I doubt it will work very well. As wraiths' save is invulnerable and their toughness is only 4, I'd say they should be shot with bolters, not lascannons or krak missiles. The idea is to put as many hits on them as possible, rather than go for instant death, because in the lists we discuss, basic weapons have no other meaningful targets. Without FnP and RP, wraiths are not that difficult to take down by focused S4 shots.

This is the type of list I have been contemplating for my next project.

I am perplexed by a couple ideas in this thread:

1) I see only see 2 Doom Scythes in the majority of lists.. Why is this?

2) Wraiths seem anti-thematic. I'm not sure why they should draw so much firepower away from CCBs/DoomS. Wraiths can be tarpitted early and dealth with after the glass cannons. Also there are some weapons that can't be used against the vehicles, namely S4 fire and CC units - both of which find use against the wraiths.

@ 1500 points, this is my final prototype list:

HQ Overlord CCB, warscythe 180
HQ Overlord CCB, warscythe 180
Cryptek destruction, solar pulse 55
Cryptek destruction, solar pulse 55
Troops Warriorsx5 nightscythe 165
Troops Warriorsx5 nightscythe 165
Troops Immortalsx10 tesla 170
Heavy Doom Scythe 175
Heavy Doom Scythe 175
Heavy Doom Scythe 175

1495

The only thing that I'm not certain on is if the foot immortals really are better than a 3rd NS. They put out more firepower and give a home to the Teks, but give a viable foot target which is anti-thematic. This might be okay since they are a scoring unit that will be able to get upfield independant of transports, but i would want to test this out to see how it works in practice.

Food for thought.

Here is my take between the doom scythe and the annihilation barges.

Doom scythes are considered by most armies and opponents to be a huge target priority, probably more so than any other unit in the necron dex, including command barges and wraiths. They are target numero uno (#1) and thus need other high priority targets in the army to help make them more survivable. That is why they go better with CCB's, scarabs and wraiths, who are very fast and dangerous units as well. Otherwise, all guns will point towards them in order to try to take them down. In other lists that are lacking such fast and dangerous units, they simply won't survive long enough in most cases. That is why they work in lists such as Lukus' scythe-spam or my own MTO list.

AB's are almost the complete opposite of doom scythes. They are slow but much more durable. Not really because of their AV13, but more because they are not viewed as a high priority threat compared to some of the other necron units. So over the long run, they will produce more consistent and more reliable results than doom scythes. I myself prefer AB's instead in my pure wraithwing build (w/18 wraiths) for their rather steady output. However, the drawback of AB's in a scythe-spam list is that because they are perceived to be a lower priority threat, that means your opponents are going to shoot down your night scythes instead (after taking out your CCB's), killing both your firepower and your mobility. Ideally, in a scythe-spam list, you want units to "take the heat off" of your scythes instead, not put it on them. So that is the main drawback of AB's in a scythe-spam list. They make target priority much easier for your opponent.

As for wraiths, you really have to try them a few times to appreciate how much they can do for the necron army. They are quite survivable against small arms fire and any insta-killing AT used on them means your tanks will survive longer. They are a great utility unit that is both a dangerous threat to most enemies with their speed and killing power as well as a protector of your own forces with their resiliency and counter-assault.

For doom scythes, I would not use more than 2 for balance reasons. If they had the resiliency of some of the other necron units (i.e. quantum shielding), then they would an ok investment. But doom scythes are rather expensive and will normally go down fast. Thus, you need other units in the army that can handle the offense once they do. It is a matter of "too many eggs in 1 basket", at least for me, and too many doom scythes in the army actually unbalances it.

It requires 9 BS4 bolter shots to put a single wound on a Wraith. How many armies actively spam these, or at least run enough that they are going to weaken them significantly before they hit? I can only think of Venom Spam DE in which case 3 of those Venoms will be carrying Blasterborn and thus are priority one anyway.

My main point about the Wraiths is that they are another fast threat that excels against certain targets which may prove problematic to Tesla: Long Fangs, BA dev squads and Broadside teams are the first things that come to mind. Against more assault based lists they can become your tarpit stopping specialists getting to your Troops. With decent placement I also don't see how they can be tarpitted that easily. They are jump infantry that are never slowed down, even when assaulting.

I may be wrong about Wraiths but they are working for me and from experience I can say taking more Scythes is not the answer. The weakness it breeds at the higher points levels become too great. Suggestions?

Dracos I do like your list. At 1500 it looks pretty solid. It's probably a good idea to see which works better for you - 10 additional boots on the ground or another Tesla Destructor.

The reason I generally only run 2 Doom Scythes is that they are fragile and you need to get the correct balance of survivability and damage output. 3 is almost a third of your list and while devastating when attacking they go down fast. Of course if it works for you then that is really all that matters. Give it a shot and let us know how it performs.

I should be getting in some practice with my 1850 list some time this week as well. Will see how it does and put the results up.

Was thinking about these lists the other day and just recently had time to check in, Seems like there are still a lot of camps on some of the issues.

I think Necrontyr's basis is very solid, but is more of a list in itself. I'm not sure if scythe spam wants to work the way that army does, though who's to say if that is better or not. I do think MSU and Night scythes would fit wonderfully into it though.

I'm so on the fence about wraiths right now. They seem like are one of those decisions that isn't ever that bad, even when it's a mistake though. I also think there are a lot of situations when you will want a sturdy/sneaky cleanup crew to help deal with things your flimsy troops and overstreched s7 fire might need help with in the mid/lategame.

I see really exciting things when I look at Draco's list. I wonder about the idea of having a solid shooting brick/scoring unit. I have trouble with how complimentary each bit of shooting the scythe spam formula offers. a volley from a 100 point scythe is really only killing a marine and a half. You need to be doing a lot of focus firing with rather slight, expensive, short ranged platforms to wipe a unit off the earth. It gets easier, but I'd really prefer to have a way to make use of those troops in doing that. Either that or finding some room for sniper squads like deathmarks to move forward fast and put a real hurt in mean angles. Sadly those don't score, so I'm left considering Immortals. So far I'm putting the idea out of my head because I'm more interested in spamming lots of vehicles and having MSU squads hanging back with attached crypteks for learning curve reasons if nothing else..

On that note, I've been seeing great things from a friend's deathmark squads. He's been using 2 of them at the higher point levels, both in skimmers. He marks 2 units he figures are key for his enemy, or will be problematic for him, or he thinks are just juicy targets points wise, and puts the fear of god into them. He tends to run 7 (and no cryptek) and he says that was the make or break number for him when he ran them without the nightscythe, but now it's a little different. He's one of those different for the sake of it gamers though, so I can never quite tell. I'm looking forward to trying configurations now that exams have let up.

If you want to run immotek, you'll want a third doomscythe. I just don't see you having enough in folks face without it. I think you'd also want to find another silver bullet type answer too.

Lastly, I was thinking the other day, with all the little pockets of threatening shooting this list offers and the relatively light use of the FA slot, it would seem like a perfect opportunity to throw in some finely distributed heavy destroyers. They are kill points, for sure, but who's going to be shooting at them? Also remember now that they aren't jetbikes they can plop down and waddle into cover. With double pulse already pretty mandatory, I can see a couple of these dudes sneaking into lists. They can hide in scythes too! And will almost always be able to shoot at something after they come in from reserve!

Lucre wrote:On that note, I've been seeing great things from a friend's deathmark squads. He's been using 2 of them at the higher point levels, both in skimmers.

... when you say "skimmers", I hope you mean "Night Scythes" (Deathmarks can't use anything else as transport, after all)

Ya of course!