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>12" you probably won't want to risk plasma guns anyway so may as well just shoot lasguns. That's an extra 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.3 wounds, 0.4 dead. Multiply that by the amount of vet squads you have.
So yeah, I'd stick with lasguns.

Is there a cheap way to mod the shotguns?
All the boxed IG I see come with lasguns. What is your thoughts onto turning them into shotguns?

Your idea has merit, but my concern is the real world $$$ for the small times you actually want to assault.

The other concern I have is modding all my vets to use shotguns,and find the 6th edition rules make assault weapons nearly useless, as was seen in the 'released 6th edition FAQ'. I would hate to mod up 60 models, and then have to mod them again in July.

>12" you probably won't want to risk plasma guns anyway so may as well just shoot lasguns. That's an extra 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.3 wounds, 0.4 dead. Multiply that by the amount of vet squads you have.
So yeah, I'd stick with lasguns.

OK... Do you talk about mechvets or footvets?

In Chimera Lasguns are pointless, because they contradict the chimera's mobility. You want them in groups and on the move. Their strength is the special weapon firepower not the secondary weaponry.
And if you are up close maybe it is better assaulting with 3 squads into 3 remaining Marines than 3 squads getting assaulted and chased away by 3 Marines...
So vote for shotguns.

On foot with a heavy weapon and 3 long range special weapons, Lasguns can be the better option because moving contadicts the use of a heavy weapon.
Vote for lasguns.

However another question would be: Is such a squad viable at all? I would say only in few army concepts. Platoon infantry is better at that task.

labmouse42 wrote:Is there a cheap way to mod the shotguns?
All the boxed IG I see come with lasguns. What is your thoughts onto turning them into shotguns?

Your idea has merit, but my concern is the real world $$$ for the small times you actually want to assault.

The other concern I have is modding all my vets to use shotguns,and find the 6th edition rules make assault weapons nearly useless, as was seen in the 'released 6th edition FAQ'. I would hate to mod up 60 models, and then have to mod them again in July.

You mean the leaked Edition or is there an actual FAQ, because the leaked edition is fake.

But with some plasticard tubing and some green stuff, you could probably make underslung shotguns on your las guns so the two can be interchangable.

KplKeegan wrote:You mean the leaked Edition or is there an actual FAQ, because the leaked edition is fake.

But with some plasticard tubing and some green stuff, you could probably make underslung shotguns on your las guns so the two can be interchangable.

Yes I ment the 'leaked edition;. Umm...last I read that was a early test version of the 6th edition and not a fake.

There is a big difference between the two -- as an early test version means some of the ideas will stay in. A fake would be someone with a excessive amount of spare time to design a rulebook to spoof the internet. Which is more likely, that a early test version was leaked, or someone spent hours crafting a rulesystem that would be played a few times and discarded?
I think "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one.", applies here. Since neither of us can provide solid proof one way or the other, lets move on

The point is still the same -- we know there are big changes coming in 6th, would you want to make a big change to your army when it may be worthless in 3 months time?

-------

Would you use magnets and sculpt 60+ shotguns? Is that your idea? While I would not do that due to the time required and the chance of it being useless in 6th edition, I can see how someone would want to magnetize/sculpt.

labmouse42 wrote:

The point is still the same -- we know there are big changes coming in 6th, would you want to make a big change to your army when it may be worthless in 3 months time?

Well if you go by the leaked edition, Assault Weapons would be better as they would be considered an addional close combat weapon, so if that's a true model, would it really be worthless?

-------

Would you use magnets and sculpt 60+ shotguns? Is that your idea? While I would not do that due to the time required and the chance of it being useless in 6th edition, I can see how someone would want to magnetize/sculpt.

Well you asked about modelling shotguns, I gave you the option of having both on the same model and being able to interchange them. Whether or not its worth the time spent is entirely up to you.

3 melta vets
sergeant
HWS with AC
4 flashlights

Works great in a chimera for objective camping or guarding a heavy support unit like a manticore.

Squad can remain in position and pepper stuff with an AC. The AC doesn't justify the points spend on the squad, but for the cheap price of the AC it's worth 10 points so the squad can do something at ranges >24"

At 15-24" the squad can pepper infantry with 4 flashlights and an ac. Once again not impressive, but it's something to do while the squad remains in position.

At 15" and less the Chimera can move forward, fire meltas from the access hatch, and keep the front AV12 towards the enemy.

I find my mech vets end up frequently firing their flashlights, and rarely find themselves in a position to charge. On the rare occasions they do charge it's usually against a very small squad of marines say 1 or 2, and the MEQ is usually already in CC with another unit of guardsmen making the shotgun/flashlight debate a moot point.

Testify wrote:>12" you probably won't want to risk plasma guns anyway so may as well just shoot lasguns. That's an extra 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.3 wounds, 0.4 dead. Multiply that by the amount of vet squads you have.
So yeah, I'd stick with lasguns.

Shotguns and lasguns get the same number of shots, so your point doesn't really make sense. The only time that a lasgun gets more shots than a shotgun is at the 18-24" range on non-mounted vets.

labmouse42 wrote:Is there a cheap way to mod the shotguns?
All the boxed IG I see come with lasguns. What is your thoughts onto turning them into shotguns?

Your idea has merit, but my concern is the real world $$$ for the small times you actually want to assault.

I'd probably just chop off a lasgun right in front of the trigger and attach two pieces of brass tubing, the kind I get for cheap at my local hardware store.

labmouse42 wrote:The other concern I have is modding all my vets to use shotguns,and find the 6th edition rules make assault weapons nearly useless, as was seen in the 'released 6th edition FAQ'. I would hate to mod up 60 models, and then have to mod them again in July.

I don't want to drag this into a fight over the validity of the alleged leak, but I'm certainly not going to plan my army against that document. We'll see what the rules look like when the rules come out. Anything else is pure conjecture.

-Nazdreg- wrote:On foot with a heavy weapon and 3 long range special weapons, Lasguns can be the better option because moving contadicts the use of a heavy weapon.
Vote for lasguns.

So, part of what I've been wondering is if lasguns synergize with anything, much less better than the shotgun. If you've got a las-plas vet squad and you're shooting at something with single-tap plasma out to 24", are the lasguns going to help? Against big, heavy targets, like vehicles and MCs, which is what they're likely to be shooting at at this range anyways, lasguns are scarcely helping, if at all. Against mid-range beeftanks like death company or TWC, you're running into the possibility of causing wound wrapping. Against things were both lasguns can do something AND they're not going to cause wound wrapping, you're talking about a target that you're probably wasting those plasma guns and that lascannon against.

And once again, even on foot, this ability to shoot lasguns is only in the 18"-24" range. At 18", it's going to be worth it to waste the lascannon in order to get into double-tap range with the plasma. If it's not, then it's a target that a lascannon can hurt that plasma guns can't, which certainly means that the small arms aren't going to be doing anything.

As such, the only real advantage of lasguns - being able to put down an extra S3 attack at 12"-18" and two extra if the squad stays stationary from 18"-24" with FRF doesn't even seem to be that useful.

Ailaros wrote:[I don't want to drag this into a fight over the validity of the alleged leak, but I'm certainly not going to plan my army against that document. We'll see what the rules look like when the rules come out. Anything else is pure conjecture.

As I menioned in an earlier response, the validity of the leak does not matter. We know there will be changes in 6th edition, and assault weapons may be one them.

The point is this "Is it worth converting all your models if they might be worthless in July?"

If your friends let you say your modeled lasguns are shotguns, then go with em. If your in a WYSIWYG game and you don't have em modeled, I would not spend the time modeling them because there is a chance that assault weapons won't be worth a darn on IG.

That's why I've been hesitant of any major army changes, and for the IG one I am currently building I'm going very conservativly on units that I am pretty sure will be useful in 6th (ie, 'Russ and Vet squads)

labmouse42 wrote:We know there will be changes in 6th edition, and assault weapons may be one them.

As I said...

Ailaros wrote:We'll see what the rules look like when the rules come out. Anything else is pure conjecture.

... I'm not going to base my unit upgrades on what you think that things may or may not look like at some point inf the furure.

schadenfreude wrote:At 15-24" the squad can pepper infantry with 4 flashlights and an ac.

I'd note that shotguns and lasguns in a box can both shoot two shots at targets 24" away from where they started.

I suppose this is telling too, though. If there's a heavy weapon involved, it's actually only 4 minis that have the choice of flashlight or shotgun.

Ailaros wrote:I'd probably just chop off a lasgun right in front of the trigger and attach two pieces of brass tubing, the kind I get for cheap at my local hardware store.

In that case, it sounds like a good idea. Given the number of times you shoot at 24" and the number of times you might actually want to assault.

The brass tubing sounds like an effective way to do it.

If they're cadian, I just cut off the barrel and magazine so it looks like a pump action shotgun

Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Winning the game is not always about killing models, its also about securing objectives, pulling units out of position, end game cleanup, etc. I see shotguns helping more in those types of situations -- lasguns much less so.

Something to consider also is whether the army has Straken or Creed. Being able to fire then furious charge into a unit isn't a bad idea at all, considering MSU is so popular. Tthe stats aren't great but considering the MSU squad is down to 1 model or so, not to mention any scoring related considerations, it's not a bad gamble in late game situations.

loner wrote:Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Won't count as WYSIWYG, or even a conversion. Painting a gun a different color and calling it something else would be a straight up proxy, and TFG would call you on it at a tournament. An easy conversion would be to shave of the imperial eagle, shorten the rifle by cutting it off just after the point where the left hand grips the rifle. Cut off half the barrel and glue it back on the shortened las rifle. You now have a las carbine. Same stats as a shotgun, it's modeled different from a lasgun, it's now a legit counts as/conversion rather than a proxy, and it's logistically superior to a shotgun because it can share energy cells with a standard M-Galaxy lasgun.

schadenfreude wrote:

loner wrote:Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Won't count as WYSIWYG, or even a conversion. Painting a gun a different color and calling it something else would be a straight up proxy, and TFG would call you on it at a tournament. An easy conversion would be to shave of the imperial eagle, shorten the rifle by cutting it off just after the point where the left hand grips the rifle. Cut off half the barrel and glue it back on the shortened las rifle. You now have a las carbine. Same stats as a shotgun, it's modeled different from a lasgun, it's now a legit counts as/conversion rather than a proxy, and it's logistically superior to a shotgun because it can share energy cells with a standard M-Galaxy lasgun.

Ah, my bad.
I usually play casual games only and have very little experience with TFG's.
Most of our armies are not exactly WYSIWYG.
How about just cutting off the barrel of a normal lasgun? It looks different than a normal lasgun and it's not like GW has any models for it.
Alternatively, you can also try the shotguns from the Space Marine scouts.

loner wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

loner wrote:Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Won't count as WYSIWYG, or even a conversion. Painting a gun a different color and calling it something else would be a straight up proxy, and TFG would call you on it at a tournament. An easy conversion would be to shave of the imperial eagle, shorten the rifle by cutting it off just after the point where the left hand grips the rifle. Cut off half the barrel and glue it back on the shortened las rifle. You now have a las carbine. Same stats as a shotgun, it's modeled different from a lasgun, it's now a legit counts as/conversion rather than a proxy, and it's logistically superior to a shotgun because it can share energy cells with a standard M-Galaxy lasgun.

Ah, my bad.
I usually play casual games only and have very little experience with TFG's.
Most of our armies are not exactly WYSIWYG.
How about just cutting off the barrel of a normal lasgun? It looks different than a normal lasgun and it's not like GW has any models for it.
Alternatively, you can also try the shotguns from the Space Marine scouts.

I think that Imperial shotguns look downright stupid, so I avoid those as much as possible.

Bu you can say a lasgun that is modified even just a little bit is a shotgun. As long as it doesn't look exactly the same as the original lasgun. No one can argue with you that a lasgun with its barrel chopped off isn't a shotgun if you say it is. It's your army and your models.That being said, if for whatever reason something in 6th edition makes shotguns useless then you can claim that your lasgun-with-no-barrel shotgun conversion is actually an autogun, which has the same stats as a lasgun.

I use lasguns on my vets, because I refuse to convert 24 Praetorian lasgunners to carry shotguns.

That said, I wish they were shotguns. Knowing I could shoot fully, and still charge if I wanted, would be better than occasionally shooting at 24".

Far too often, a very small squad is left after shooting. Being able to assault them would tie them up, and hopefully prevernt greater damage.

Things I did since my last post.

Dug out my IG bits
Took a poop
Converted a lasgun into a lascarbine
Took pictures of it and posted it on dakkadakk (the lascarbines, not the poop)

Level of difficulty and time consumption of those activities from least difficult and time consuming to most time consuming and/or demanding.

Converting the las carbine
Taking a poop
Finding lasguns in my bits collection
Taking pics and posting them on dakkadakka

Black spots on the lasgun is what is removed



Snip Snip. The eagle is cut in half, so it will need to be removed with a knife then a file.



File File, glue, glue.



Carbine still not carbine enough for you, off with the butt.

I've been thinking of picking up some krieg engineers to try this shotgun idea for a while now... just keep buying more tanks lately. Need another pay raise to afford krieg >.<

schadenfreude wrote:Things I did since my last post.

Dug out my IG bits
Took a poop
Converted a lasgun into a lascarbine
Took pictures of it and posted it on dakkadakk (the lascarbines, not the poop)

Level of difficulty and time consumption of those activities from least difficult and time consuming to most time consuming and/or demanding.

Converting the las carbine
Taking a poop
Finding lasguns in my bits collection
Taking pics and posting them on dakkadakka

Black spots on the lasgun is what is removed



Snip Snip. The eagle is cut in half, so it will need to be removed with a knife then a file.



File File, glue, glue.



Carbine still not carbine enough for you, off with the butt.

Looks too much like a pistol. Try fixing on only the very back of the butt (tee hee) so it's still got a short stock.

Testify wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Things I did since my last post.

Dug out my IG bits
Took a poop
Converted a lasgun into a lascarbine
Took pictures of it and posted it on dakkadakk (the lascarbines, not the poop)

Level of difficulty and time consumption of those activities from least difficult and time consuming to most time consuming and/or demanding.

Converting the las carbine
Taking a poop
Finding lasguns in my bits collection
Taking pics and posting them on dakkadakka

Black spots on the lasgun is what is removed



Snip Snip. The eagle is cut in half, so it will need to be removed with a knife then a file.



File File, glue, glue.



Carbine still not carbine enough for you, off with the butt.

Looks too much like a pistol. Try fixing on only the very back of the butt (tee hee) so it's still got a short stock.

Gun and barrel length are exactly between a rifle and a pistol.



stock length is a matter of personal preference. With or without a stock it's easily distinguished as being not a rifle and not a pistol.

I'm just glad he didn't tell WHAT the black stuff on the lasgun was.... Way TMI schadenfreude!

I had a former member on here convert some for me using the Cadian flamer.
I've also got some that were from the Golden days of Necromunda and even have
gone so far as to buy 4 sets from FW.

Black stuff=Imperial primer. I just wanted to see how well it went on, and was somewhat disappointed. Not noticing much of a difference between it and chaos black. The cadian flamer would also work. Fluff wise I just don't like the idea of vets using shotgun ammunition. Vet's can't recharge spent shells in the field. Game mechanic wise I think there is little difference between shotguns and lasguns.

schadenfreude wrote: Game mechanic wise I think there is little difference between shotguns and lasguns.

I agree. But shotguns can look cool as hell!

schadenfreude wrote:Black stuff=Imperial primer. I just wanted to see how well it went on, and was somewhat disappointed. Not noticing much of a difference between it and chaos black. The cadian flamer would also work. Fluff wise I just don't like the idea of vets using shotgun ammunition. Vet's can't recharge spent shells in the field. Game mechanic wise I think there is little difference between shotguns and lasguns.

Chapter House makes a custom Autogun version of the SCAR-H with a drum magazine and could easily mimick an automatic shotgun...

Shotguns seem pretty much a no-brainer for meltavets, but with other weapons I'm not so sure. How often will the squad actually cause enough wounds to wound-wrap? If it looks like 4 or 6 lasguns is maybe going to wound-wrap, then don't shoot them, but it seems to me you'll likely more often want as much shooting as you can. Just a feeling, I haven't used vets all that much and I suck at mathhammer, so maybe I'm dead wrong.

As far as the conversion issue, I've done a couple of test models for a fluffy 'engineers' meltavet squad I'm making (at a leisurely pace). I clipped the main part of the barrel off, leaving a little nub, as well as the magazine and sight rail. Then I just took a file and started rounding the edges of the bulk of the lasgun, until it's more round and shotty-like. Looks good to me.

Ignatius wrote:

loner wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

loner wrote:Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Won't count as WYSIWYG, or even a conversion. Painting a gun a different color and calling it something else would be a straight up proxy, and TFG would call you on it at a tournament. An easy conversion would be to shave of the imperial eagle, shorten the rifle by cutting it off just after the point where the left hand grips the rifle. Cut off half the barrel and glue it back on the shortened las rifle. You now have a las carbine. Same stats as a shotgun, it's modeled different from a lasgun, it's now a legit counts as/conversion rather than a proxy, and it's logistically superior to a shotgun because it can share energy cells with a standard M-Galaxy lasgun.

Ah, my bad.
I usually play casual games only and have very little experience with TFG's.
Most of our armies are not exactly WYSIWYG.
How about just cutting off the barrel of a normal lasgun? It looks different than a normal lasgun and it's not like GW has any models for it.
Alternatively, you can also try the shotguns from the Space Marine scouts.

I think that Imperial shotguns look downright stupid, so I avoid those as much as possible.

Bu you can say a lasgun that is modified even just a little bit is a shotgun. As long as it doesn't look exactly the same as the original lasgun. No one can argue with you that a lasgun with its barrel chopped off isn't a shotgun if you say it is. It's your army and your models.That being said, if for whatever reason something in 6th edition makes shotguns useless then you can claim that your lasgun-with-no-barrel shotgun conversion is actually an autogun, which has the same stats as a lasgun.

i wish people would read earlier posts in a thread. ive already done this, and i used it, and nobody could say a thing cuz it was different.

murdog wrote:Shotguns seem pretty much a no-brainer for meltavets, but with other weapons I'm not so sure. How often will the squad actually cause enough wounds to wound-wrap? If it looks like 4 or 6 lasguns is maybe going to wound-wrap, then don't shoot them, but it seems to me you'll likely more often want as much shooting as you can. Just a feeling, I haven't used vets all that much and I suck at mathhammer, so maybe I'm dead wrong.

But that's the best part about using Flamers and Shotguns. Even if you wound wrap the squad you shoot, allocating wounds based on Strength and AP is essentially wasted and eventually a Space Marine player gets embarassed that they're sergeant w/ the power fist still died in a fullisade of flames and buckshot because the special and heavy weapon caddies can't absorb the non-existant instant-kill wounds, which leaves him completely flabberghasted when the Veterans who do carry the Melta guns wipe them out in the next salvo.

It's very entertaining to watch Blood Angels players tip-toe around Sanguinary Priests when you cause 10+ Wounds in a round of shooting and watch as the gap in horror as he dies to a shotgun instead of the meltas he was expecting.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

loner wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

loner wrote:Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Won't count as WYSIWYG, or even a conversion. Painting a gun a different color and calling it something else would be a straight up proxy, and TFG would call you on it at a tournament. An easy conversion would be to shave of the imperial eagle, shorten the rifle by cutting it off just after the point where the left hand grips the rifle. Cut off half the barrel and glue it back on the shortened las rifle. You now have a las carbine. Same stats as a shotgun, it's modeled different from a lasgun, it's now a legit counts as/conversion rather than a proxy, and it's logistically superior to a shotgun because it can share energy cells with a standard M-Galaxy lasgun.

Ah, my bad.
I usually play casual games only and have very little experience with TFG's.
Most of our armies are not exactly WYSIWYG.
How about just cutting off the barrel of a normal lasgun? It looks different than a normal lasgun and it's not like GW has any models for it.
Alternatively, you can also try the shotguns from the Space Marine scouts.

I think that Imperial shotguns look downright stupid, so I avoid those as much as possible.

Bu you can say a lasgun that is modified even just a little bit is a shotgun. As long as it doesn't look exactly the same as the original lasgun. No one can argue with you that a lasgun with its barrel chopped off isn't a shotgun if you say it is. It's your army and your models.That being said, if for whatever reason something in 6th edition makes shotguns useless then you can claim that your lasgun-with-no-barrel shotgun conversion is actually an autogun, which has the same stats as a lasgun.

i wish people would read earlier posts in a thread. ive already done this, and i used it, and nobody could say a thing cuz it was different.

I think most people who have an overabundance of lasguns have done this conversion in one way or another. I just finished 10 vets with "close combat lasguns" using the exact same approach. The gun looks a little stumpy to me though. I will probably add an extended magazine using plasticard.