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bogalubov wrote:

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

loner wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

loner wrote:Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Won't count as WYSIWYG, or even a conversion. Painting a gun a different color and calling it something else would be a straight up proxy, and TFG would call you on it at a tournament. An easy conversion would be to shave of the imperial eagle, shorten the rifle by cutting it off just after the point where the left hand grips the rifle. Cut off half the barrel and glue it back on the shortened las rifle. You now have a las carbine. Same stats as a shotgun, it's modeled different from a lasgun, it's now a legit counts as/conversion rather than a proxy, and it's logistically superior to a shotgun because it can share energy cells with a standard M-Galaxy lasgun.

Ah, my bad.
I usually play casual games only and have very little experience with TFG's.
Most of our armies are not exactly WYSIWYG.
How about just cutting off the barrel of a normal lasgun? It looks different than a normal lasgun and it's not like GW has any models for it.
Alternatively, you can also try the shotguns from the Space Marine scouts.

I think that Imperial shotguns look downright stupid, so I avoid those as much as possible.

Bu you can say a lasgun that is modified even just a little bit is a shotgun. As long as it doesn't look exactly the same as the original lasgun. No one can argue with you that a lasgun with its barrel chopped off isn't a shotgun if you say it is. It's your army and your models.That being said, if for whatever reason something in 6th edition makes shotguns useless then you can claim that your lasgun-with-no-barrel shotgun conversion is actually an autogun, which has the same stats as a lasgun.

i wish people would read earlier posts in a thread. ive already done this, and i used it, and nobody could say a thing cuz it was different.

I think most people who have an overabundance of lasguns have done this conversion in one way or another. I just finished 10 vets with "close combat lasguns" using the exact same approach. The gun looks a little stumpy to me though. I will probably add an extended magazine using plasticard.

no doubt, there is some people asking how to cheaply convert/mod for shotguns and some saying that you'll get called out in tournament for certain things,when the info has already been presented. i hope that in the new edition shotguns get better stats, sm shotguns have st4 but IG has st3. thats crap they both are from imperium and a shotgun is a shotgun. if they want to emulate a shotgun it should be st4 with a 12 inch range, but just like melta have better stats at closer range: within 6" - assault 2, st5 or 6, add +1 to BS. nobody misses with a shotgun at close range in reality, and they are stronger when they are closer.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

lordsolarkodiak wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

loner wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

loner wrote:Perhaps not really usefull to add to this conversation but: How about painting your shotguns a different colour than your standard lasguns and then call them Labmouse42 patterns.
Then if you are done with them or want to try something different, paint them the original colour again.

As for the shotguns: I'd take them with my meltaguns, just because I have the option to assault when I want to. (As all weapons are assault.) Sure not the most usefull option, but I've more often had a case of: "I wish I could assault them now" than "I wish I had lasguns..."

Won't count as WYSIWYG, or even a conversion. Painting a gun a different color and calling it something else would be a straight up proxy, and TFG would call you on it at a tournament. An easy conversion would be to shave of the imperial eagle, shorten the rifle by cutting it off just after the point where the left hand grips the rifle. Cut off half the barrel and glue it back on the shortened las rifle. You now have a las carbine. Same stats as a shotgun, it's modeled different from a lasgun, it's now a legit counts as/conversion rather than a proxy, and it's logistically superior to a shotgun because it can share energy cells with a standard M-Galaxy lasgun.

Ah, my bad.
I usually play casual games only and have very little experience with TFG's.
Most of our armies are not exactly WYSIWYG.
How about just cutting off the barrel of a normal lasgun? It looks different than a normal lasgun and it's not like GW has any models for it.
Alternatively, you can also try the shotguns from the Space Marine scouts.

I think that Imperial shotguns look downright stupid, so I avoid those as much as possible.

Bu you can say a lasgun that is modified even just a little bit is a shotgun. As long as it doesn't look exactly the same as the original lasgun. No one can argue with you that a lasgun with its barrel chopped off isn't a shotgun if you say it is. It's your army and your models.That being said, if for whatever reason something in 6th edition makes shotguns useless then you can claim that your lasgun-with-no-barrel shotgun conversion is actually an autogun, which has the same stats as a lasgun.

i wish people would read earlier posts in a thread. ive already done this, and i used it, and nobody could say a thing cuz it was different.

I think most people who have an overabundance of lasguns have done this conversion in one way or another. I just finished 10 vets with "close combat lasguns" using the exact same approach. The gun looks a little stumpy to me though. I will probably add an extended magazine using plasticard.

no doubt, there is some people asking how to cheaply convert/mod for shotguns and some saying that you'll get called out in tournament for certain things,when the info has already been presented. i hope that in the new edition shotguns get better stats, sm shotguns have st4 but IG has st3. thats crap they both are from imperium and a shotgun is a shotgun. if they want to emulate a shotgun it should be st4 with a 12 inch range, but just like melta have better stats at closer range: within 6" - assault 2, st5 or 6, add +1 to BS. nobody misses with a shotgun at close range in reality, and they are stronger when they are closer.

Not all shotguns are equal. There is a big difference between a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge. Space marines are S4 and can carry a much more powerful shotgun than a S3 guardsman. Guardsmen probably carry a 12 gauge, space marines probably carry something more powerful.

Anyways back on topic. People don't get called out on shotgun conversions. What gets people called out is calling 1 weapon another weapon because it's painted a different color. Saying black lasguns are lasguns, grey las guns are shotguns, and red lasguns are meltas is what will get called out in a tournament setting. Just about every idea I have seen here from other posters would pass the rule of cool litmus test.

strength has nothing to do with carrying bigger weapons that are hand held. a 150 lb soldier can carry a m240 as can a 250lb guy. but neither of them can carry and fir a 50 cal. space marines can carry LC, HB, ML etc by them self, ok cool str 4 got it, st3 need 2 dudes.

10 ga is the only shotgun stronger than a 12 ga. you cant say a 12 ga shotgun is not stronger and more accurate at a closer range than not. it also depends on the cartridge being used, lead is stronger than pellet, and buck shot is stronger than those, and slugs are stronger and more powerful than all. i know the fluff is based in 40k and there are more advanced weapons, but come on, my 13yo cousin can shoot a 10 ga.

im with you on the conversions, there is just people asking how to do it cheaply and easily, when the info has already been put out on how to do it and not have any problems.

I know there is rarely a situation in which you would use your veterans to assault. However, in a recent game, this situation occurred:

1. SM player moved his landraider up and assaulted out with his termies, (3 lightning claws, 2 thunder hammer, cpt in termie armor with regular set up). True, not the most scary thing, but, hey, it was what he was playing.

2. He assaults my LRBT squadron (2 lrbt w/ lascannons). wrecks one and one explodes. Now, his termies are just sitting there within 5 inches of my chimera with melta/demo vets.

3. Unload vets and move with in danger close range to his termies. three melta shots hit and wound, demo hits 4 of the termies and wounds 4. Shot guns hit 7 and wound 2. Not to bad. He loses 4 termies to the melta and demo charge, other saves made. So, he leaves the Cpt and TH/SS.

4. I assault, knowing, he will assault me next turn anyway, better get the bonus when I can. Results, 6 vets dead and cpt and th/ss dead.

Doesn't happen all the time, but, sometimes it does. Fortune favors the bold.

martin74 wrote:I know there is rarely a situation in which you would use your veterans to assault. However, in a recent game, this situation occurred:

1. SM player moved his landraider up and assaulted out with his termies, (3 lightning claws, 2 thunder hammer, cpt in termie armor with regular set up). True, not the most scary thing, but, hey, it was what he was playing.

2. He assaults my LRBT squadron (2 lrbt w/ lascannons). wrecks one and one explodes. Now, his termies are just sitting there within 5 inches of my chimera with melta/demo vets.

3. Unload vets and move with in danger close range to his termies. three melta shots hit and wound, demo hits 4 of the termies and wounds 4. Shot guns hit 7 and wound 2. Not to bad. He loses 4 termies to the melta and demo charge, other saves made. So, he leaves the Cpt and TH/SS.

4. I assault, knowing, he will assault me next turn anyway, better get the bonus when I can. Results, 6 vets dead and cpt and th/ss dead.

Doesn't happen all the time, but, sometimes it does. Fortune favors the bold.

Martin, I got to borrow your dice!

It was a great day for the dice. Not saying it always happens. However, I don't think one lascannon in my list that day penetrated a rhino.

My point is, there are times when it is to your advantage to assault with vets. Shotguns give you the ability.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:nobody misses with a shotgun at close range in reality, and they are stronger when they are closer.

Unless your definition of close range is something like under 3 meters neither of those are really true, at least for shotguns with a choke.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:strength has nothing to do with carrying bigger weapons that are hand held. a 150 lb soldier can carry a m240 as can a 250lb guy. but neither of them can carry and fir a 50 cal. space marines can carry LC, HB, ML etc by them self, ok cool str 4 got it, st3 need 2 dudes.

10 ga is the only shotgun stronger than a 12 ga. you cant say a 12 ga shotgun is not stronger and more accurate at a closer range than not. it also depends on the cartridge being used, lead is stronger than pellet, and buck shot is stronger than those, and slugs are stronger and more powerful than all. i know the fluff is based in 40k and there are more advanced weapons, but come on, my 13yo cousin can shoot a 10 ga.

im with you on the conversions, there is just people asking how to do it cheaply and easily, when the info has already been put out on how to do it and not have any problems.

They used to make bigger shotguns.

What I think he's getting at is that Space Marines could theoretically have some absolutely ridiculous shotgun like a 0.75 or 1 gauge (about 46mm and 42mm respectively) that fires shells with more powerful propellant than a regular person could handle. Basically what I'm saying is that Space Marine shotguns could be thought of as smaller, handheld punt guns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

martin74 wrote:It was a great day for the dice. Not saying it always happens. However, I don't think one lascannon in my list that day penetrated a rhino.

My point is, there are times when it is to your advantage to assault with vets. Shotguns give you the ability.

I can't see any downside to having shotguns on meltavets (or flamer vets if that's your thing) so you can charge if needed but I think it can go either way with plasma vets because unless the target unit is grots it's almost always better to unload plasma into them rather than charging. Still, shotguns really can't hurt you here because you're only losing a few S3 shots at 24" that can only hurt you if he gets to do wound allocation.

In other words I don't see any reason to not have shotguns on veterans.

tuebor wrote:punt gun

A special cannon devised to commercially harvest waterfowl out of the air? I have the strangest boner right now...

Anyways, I agree with all of this. Taller, stronger people use bigger, deadlier bows. There's no reason this can't be true for scatter weapons as well. Yes, you don't need extra strength to pull the trigger, but you do need the strength to lug the extra large weapon around, not get knocked on your ass by recoil, and to be able to aim the thing with any reasonable degree of accuracy in the first place.

I mean, Ogryn are S5 brutes that carry around GIGANTIC auto-shotties. Their shotguns are S5. Guardsmen are S3, and carry S3 shotguns. Doesn't seem out of place that a S4 model carries a S4 shotgun...

On the subject of shotguns, there is currently a 6 gauge shotgun in use by the Russian military and police called the KS-23.

It's a 23mm shotgun made from cut-down anti-aircraft barrels, also used as a pump-action grenade launcher.

One has to remember with weapon strength, bolters are strength 4 and are effectively high explosive high caliber rocket propelled bullets, like a rocket propelled .50 BMG with a high explosive core. That is generally more likely to kill you than some buckshot at a relatively long range (not saying the buckshot isn't dangerous). Also, why do IG need strength 4 infantry weapons? At that point it would become a non-brainer to take shotguns.

Buttons wrote:One has to remember with weapon strength, bolters are strength 4 and are effectively high explosive high caliber rocket propelled bullets, like a rocket propelled .50 BMG with a high explosive core. That is generally more likely to kill you than some buckshot at a relatively long range (not saying the buckshot isn't dangerous). Also, why do IG need strength 4 infantry weapons? At that point it would become a non-brainer to take shotguns.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with shotguns as they are. The problem is that vets, despite having 3 doctrines, will always suck in assault.
You could argue that vets should ALWAYS suck in assault, or you could argue that they could be made worthwhile. Maybe one of the doctrines giving Furious Charge or something, I don't know.

Joey wrote:The problem is that vets, despite having 3 doctrines, will always suck in assault.

Not literally always. Yarrick gives them stubborn and Ld10, even form 12" away, and a lord commissar can do something similar. Likewise, straken can give them FC for a good counterpunch ability, and vets are practically the only source of a hidden powerfist in the guard codex. To this, you can add carapace armor if you really want.

The problem with CC vets isn't that it can't be done, but that it requires your list to be built for this to happen (which not everyone wants to do). That and CC vets have the liability of being on vets - a squad that's too fragile to be used proactively. If you use vets as a counterattack unit, then they can be made as good at counterattacking in close combat as counterattacking with meltaguns, etc.

i guess i can understand where the gaming terms come into play with this one. im just tired of seeing people say, IG cant do that, thats for SM with a nasally whinny voice. all i know is size does not matter when it comes to carrying heavy weapons that are hand held and shoulder fired. the best saw gunner ive ever seen weighed 170 lbs wet, and i also saw in the same squad a 6'7" 260+ lb guy crumble under one on patrol.

and that russian gun....got dayum

Ailaros wrote:

Joey wrote:The problem is that vets, despite having 3 doctrines, will always suck in assault.

Not literally always. Yarrick gives them stubborn and Ld10, even form 12" away, and a lord commissar can do something similar. Likewise, straken can give them FC for a good counterpunch ability, and vets are practically the only source of a hidden powerfist in the guard codex. To this, you can add carapace armor if you really want.

The problem with CC vets isn't that it can't be done, but that it requires your list to be built for this to happen (which not everyone wants to do). That and CC vets have the liability of being on vets - a squad that's too fragile to be used proactively. If you use vets as a counterattack unit, then they can be made as good at counterattacking in close combat as counterattacking with meltaguns, etc.

Well put.

Ailaros wrote:

Joey wrote:The problem is that vets, despite having 3 doctrines, will always suck in assault.

Not literally always. Yarrick gives them stubborn and Ld10, even form 12" away, and a lord commissar can do something similar. Likewise, straken can give them FC for a good counterpunch ability, and vets are practically the only source of a hidden powerfist in the guard codex. To this, you can add carapace armor if you really want.

The problem with CC vets isn't that it can't be done, but that it requires your list to be built for this to happen (which not everyone wants to do). That and CC vets have the liability of being on vets - a squad that's too fragile to be used proactively. If you use vets as a counterattack unit, then they can be made as good at counterattacking in close combat as counterattacking with meltaguns, etc.

I used to run a couple of carapace, shotgun and flamer squads as Arbites for thematic purposes and they did a hell of a lot better in a counter-charing role than I thought they would. I wouldn't use them in a tournament or anything but I think they're tolerable for casual play.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:i guess i can understand where the gaming terms come into play with this one. im just tired of seeing people say, IG cant do that, thats for SM with a nasally whinny voice. all i know is size does not matter when it comes to carrying heavy weapons that are hand held and shoulder fired. the best saw gunner ive ever seen weighed 170 lbs wet, and i also saw in the same squad a 6'7" 260+ lb guy crumble under one on patrol.

and that russian gun....got dayum

Marines and Guardsmen would have different ideas of what a man portable weapon is. A shotgun for you and me would be a Mossberg 500 (or whatever they use nowadays, I got out years ago) and a shotgun for an Ogryn would be more like a Mark19 with a buttstock and buckshot rounds.

There's a lot that Marines can do that Guardsmen can't. That just makes it all the more sweet when my Guardsmen kick Space Marines in the teeth.

tuebor wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Joey wrote:The problem is that vets, despite having 3 doctrines, will always suck in assault.

Not literally always. Yarrick gives them stubborn and Ld10, even form 12" away, and a lord commissar can do something similar. Likewise, straken can give them FC for a good counterpunch ability, and vets are practically the only source of a hidden powerfist in the guard codex. To this, you can add carapace armor if you really want.

The problem with CC vets isn't that it can't be done, but that it requires your list to be built for this to happen (which not everyone wants to do). That and CC vets have the liability of being on vets - a squad that's too fragile to be used proactively. If you use vets as a counterattack unit, then they can be made as good at counterattacking in close combat as counterattacking with meltaguns, etc.

I used to run a couple of carapace, shotgun and flamer squads as Arbites for thematic purposes and they did a hell of a lot better in a counter-charing role than I thought they would. I wouldn't use them in a tournament or anything but I think they're tolerable for casual play.

lordsolarkodiak wrote:i guess i can understand where the gaming terms come into play with this one. im just tired of seeing people say, IG cant do that, thats for SM with a nasally whinny voice. all i know is size does not matter when it comes to carrying heavy weapons that are hand held and shoulder fired. the best saw gunner ive ever seen weighed 170 lbs wet, and i also saw in the same squad a 6'7" 260+ lb guy crumble under one on patrol.

and that russian gun....got dayum

Marines and Guardsmen would have different ideas of what a man portable weapon is. A shotgun for you and me would be a Mossberg 500 (or whatever they use nowadays, I got out years ago) and a shotgun for an Ogryn would be more like a Mark19 with a buttstock and buckshot rounds.

There's a lot that Marines can do that Guardsmen can't. That just makes it all the more sweet when my Guardsmen kick Space Marines in the teeth.

That's why i get that they can carry heavy weapons by themselves I.E. LC, MM, HB etc. i think of the ogryns shotgun as more of an automatic 203 with buckshot, mk19s are fin heavy and 500 lb force recoil. my brother got a blood angel army cuz he was tired of me stomping his orks, i tabled him in turn 4 the other day at our lgs. nothing is better than beating those kind of armies with "lowly" guardsmen. strength of the character aside, shotguns should still have more of an effect at closer ranges, it doesnt matter what guage your using, its stronger and more potent 5' from your target than 10 or 15', and vice versa, a 10 guage wont reach as far as a 12 will, or with the power.

Milisim wrote:If I was a veteran I wouldnt want a Shotgun...

I'd opt for the longest ranged gun available and let the new fish get in the face of the enemy... At least I earned the right to sit back and plink away =]

That sounds like a Tau player lol let the Kroot do the dirty work as you sit back and camp...
nobody likes a camper... But someone like marbo or even a deathworlder with a shotty is much more intimidating/badass....

Ailaros wrote:

Joey wrote:The problem is that vets, despite having 3 doctrines, will always suck in assault.

Not literally always. Yarrick gives them stubborn and Ld10, even form 12" away, and a lord commissar can do something similar. Likewise, straken can give them FC for a good counterpunch ability, and vets are practically the only source of a hidden powerfist in the guard codex. To this, you can add carapace armor if you really want.

The problem with CC vets isn't that it can't be done, but that it requires your list to be built for this to happen (which not everyone wants to do). That and CC vets have the liability of being on vets - a squad that's too fragile to be used proactively. If you use vets as a counterattack unit, then they can be made as good at counterattacking in close combat as counterattacking with meltaguns, etc.

Standard 100 melta vets can take some stuff on in CC. They have 22 attacks on the charge, and 1/6 will wound a MEQ. Average should come to 3.666 wounds on a t4 unit, or an even 3 wounds if I4+ attacks kill off 2 vets. Stuff that it would be worth for them to charge...

Any lone single wound marine other than a purifier. A pair tac marines or grey hunters is also a safe charge.

1 or 2 genestealers.

A single tactical or TH/SS terminator