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DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:In light of the FAQ about models needing to move completely onto the table, I have to agree with nos on this one. (I take it Nos's position on the matter has changed due to the FAQ as well.)

So you agree that the entire unit must be within 3" to capture/contest an objective?

No, because that involves measuring from the unit to the objective, something that is explicit as to the process you take to do so.

Could you show me where the process is?

If the unit needs to be in terrain then the unit needs to be in terrain, not part of the unit needs to be in terrain, as the is no qualifier that say part of the unit.

And there is no qualifier in the objective claiming rules about being part of the unit either - I quoted it above if you'd like to refer to it.

You're comparing apples and oranges Rigeld

Measuring TO a unit is defined in the rules - and the requirement is simply to be within 3", it doesnt care about anything else.

Again, you cannot shw a rule stating that 50% or more is enough. You can only show rules where 50% or more (or less, for Diff terrain) is *explicitly* ALLOWED

This is a permissive ruleset. Find permission for 50% to be in terrain counting as the unit being in terrain - I can measure to a model being out of the terrain, and thus the unit is not in terain - part of the unit is in terrain

nosferatu1001 wrote:You're comparing apples and oranges Rigeld

I don't think so.

Measuring TO a unit is defined in the rules - and the requirement is simply to be within 3", it doesnt care about anything else.

Can you show me where that's defined? Obviously I'm missing it.

Again, you cannot shw a rule stating that 50% or more is enough.

Actually I can't find any rules explaining what it means when a unit is required to do something. Can you show me where when a unit is required to do something, it means every model?
That'd reverse the Rage argument PDQ.

This is a permissive ruleset. Find permission for 50% to be in terrain counting as the unit being in terrain

I cant. (countdown to this being quoted out of context...)

- I can measure to a model being out of the terrain, and thus the unit is not in terain - part of the unit is in terrain

I can measure 0 inches from the terrain to the unit. By definition that means the unit is in terrain.

I can measure to a model not in terrain, therefore the unit also isnt in terrain.

You have no rules, none, that say that 50%+ of the unit is sufficient to say the unit is in terrain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I can measure to a model not in terrain, therefore the unit also isnt in terrain.

I can measure to a model outside of 3" of the objective, therefore the unit is also not on the objective.

You have no rules, none, that say that 50%+ of the unit is sufficient to say the unit is in terrain.

You have no rules, anywhere, that define how a unit doing X actually does it. The closest things we have are capturing objectives (nope, not defined there either) measuring to units (which, when measuring from the area terrain to the unit, the range is zero) or cover (unit is in cover).

Except that isnt the requiremt - the requirement is to show the unit is within 3", and you can do that by measuring to the closest model.

The closest things we have are rules that are not at all consistent, and provide explicit explanations on what to do. So without said explicit altertnative to "the unit does X", then every model in the unit has to do it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that isnt the requiremt - the requirement is to show the unit is within 3", and you can do that by measuring to the closest model.

And the unit has to be in area terrain. I measure to the unit and find...

I don't see any difference here.

The closest things we have are rules that are not at all consistent, and provide explicit explanations on what to do. So without said explicit altertnative to "the unit does X", then every model in the unit has to do it.

I don't see any explicit definition with regards to units and objectives. Care to cite something other than what I have?

Wording for objectives:

you control an objective if there is at least one of your scoring units, and no enemy unit (any unit, whether scoring or not), within 3" of it.

Wording for Lurk:

If the unit is already in a piece of area terrain it will not move and will stay where it is

What's the difference between the two?

The unit needs to be IN terrain.

The unit needs to be WITHIN 3" of the objective.

That is why they are apples and oranges. Two different things.

P.3 defines measuring.

DeathReaper wrote:The unit needs to be IN terrain.

And if I measure to the unit, and that distance is 0 or less, how is the unit not in area terrain?

I love that there are people who play this game using interpritations like that.
I failed my Instinctive Behaivour test, I'm going to move one model 3", see he's in area terrain, now the unit is!
I think you'd stuggle to find people to play against.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The unit needs to be IN terrain.

And if I measure to the unit, and that distance is 0 or less, how is the unit not in area terrain?

because you are not allowed to measure?
So measuring does not enter into it.

And As noted here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/315833.page

Onto the table does not mean partially it means completely. (Checking the FaQ we know this to be true)

The same holds true for a unit that needs to be in terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The unit needs to be IN terrain.

And if I measure to the unit, and that distance is 0 or less, how is the unit not in area terrain?

I don't understand what you mean by measuring a distance that is 0 or less?

What is less than 0 inches?

Joey wrote:I love that there are people who play this game using interpritations like that.
I failed my Instinctive Behaivour test, I'm going to move one model 3", see he's in area terrain, now the unit is!
I think you'd stuggle to find people to play against.

I think you're wrong, but thanks for the insult. Also, frequently I argue what the rules are but don't actually play that way. Shocking that RAW and HIWPI are sometimes different, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The unit needs to be IN terrain.

And if I measure to the unit, and that distance is 0 or less, how is the unit not in area terrain?

because you are not allowed to measure?
So measuring does not enter into it.

So how do you know if a) you're in terrain b) you ran towards the closest terrain - remember, you're not allowed to measure.

What you're saying is if I have 19 termagants in a piece of area terrain with one of them being on the edge, another 2" away (in coherency) that is 1" from another area terrain piece, fail the IB test...

Every gant would not move and be forced to run to the *other* terrain piece, leaving the one they were already in. Extreme example, but I've had similar situations happen in game.

And As noted here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/315833.page

Onto the table does not mean partially it means completely. (Checking the FaQ we know this to be true)

I don't see that as relevant - I'm not talking about being on the table or off.

The same holds true for a unit that needs to be in terrain.

Of course you have a rule to back up this statement of fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The unit needs to be IN terrain.

And if I measure to the unit, and that distance is 0 or less, how is the unit not in area terrain?

I don't understand what you mean by measuring a distance that is 0 or less?

What is less than 0 inches?

IE - the model I'm measuring to is either on the edge or inside the area terrain - since you would measure from the closest edge of the terrain.

Just my 2 cents on this.

The unit must be 50% in terrain to get a cover save. If there are models not in terrain, the unit is not in terrain, it may be 75%, 85% or some percentage in terrain. The unit is not terrain, but a part of the unit is in terrain.

You must roll for DT if the unit is partly in terrain, not the whole unit.

The spirit of the game also agrees, your genestealer - alone, cold and shivering, scared and by himself, isn't lurking waiting for prey is he?

A) Genestealers don't have IB and would likely have Feed even if they did.

B) Not even going to touch the fact that your interpretation could cause a unit to leave area terrain? With all the statements of fact in this thread I've been waiting for rules citations.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The unit needs to be IN terrain.

And if I measure to the unit, and that distance is 0 or less, how is the unit not in area terrain?

because you are not allowed to measure?
So measuring does not enter into it.

So how do you know if a) you're in terrain b) you ran towards the closest terrain - remember, you're not allowed to measure.

You can see if a unit is in area terrain, because it has a defined edge.

For running towards the closest then you would have to measure. but we are not sure how to measure this within the rules because the rules do not cover measuring to terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:And As noted here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/315833.page

Onto the table does not mean partially it means completely. (Checking the FaQ we know this to be true)

I don't see that as relevant - I'm not talking about being on the table or off.

The same holds true for a unit that needs to be in terrain.

Of course you have a rule to back up this statement of fact.

No rules other than the one that says you need to be in terrain. and GW ruled that onto the table means completely, no reason they would rule that you can be partially in terrain and satisfy the rule.

DeathReaper wrote:You can see if a unit is in area terrain, because it has a defined edge.

That's a fair statement, and I see your point. I still maintain that pretty much every time "unit" is mentioned, the closest model or majority of models is actually used (bar moving onto the table).

For running towards the closest then you would have to measure. but we are not sure how to measure this within the rules because the rules do not cover measuring to terrain.

Great, we agree on that.

No rules other than the one that says you need to be in terrain.

So it's the entire unit because the rule says "unit" - not "entire unit", not "every model in the unit" but "unit".
I'm not sure why you assume that - unless you apply the same requirement to capturing/contesting objectives.

and GW ruled that onto the table means completely, no reason they would rule that you can be partially in terrain and satisfy the rule.

a) GW can be pretty inconsistent
b) Are you also saying that every model must have 100% of the base inside the terrain? When you bring up moving onto the board, that's what I keep thinking you're saying. I'm just clarifying.

It all hinges on what GW's definition of is is.

I mean Into.

we have to figure it out, the best way I have found to do that it to look to similar situations and apply GW's rules for that situation to this one.

Thus "They must run towards the nearest piece of area terrain, trying to move into it if possible."

Moving into terrain and onto the board, are very similar situations, as most of the board is clear terrain, so models moving onto the board are moving into terrain.

and it does not say partially into, they say into, which means completely by default. (As shown in the onto the board FAQ)

A model is considered to be inside terrain if it touches the terrain feature. The problem is how to treat the unit which is not clear.

i side with the whole unit but thats just my opinion as rai

Mahtamori wrote:A model is considered to be inside terrain if it touches the terrain feature. The problem is how to treat the unit which is not clear.

If we apply the same logic as moving onto the board (as DeathReaper is) the model must be wholly within the feature - touching isn't sufficient.