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I have tried to search for this, but with a bit of limited time during lunch at work, well... I might've missed a gem of knowledge.

Our Tyranid player in our group asked whether a unit of lurking Tyranid who were partially in cover - more than 50% in this example - and who were claiming an objective outside of cover, would they be forced to run all models into cover or is it sufficient that the unit has a cover save?

I believe I found a post by Nosferatu stating all models must be in cover, but couldn't find a motivation for this position beyond "I can point at models not in cover", and it is a motivation based on the rules I am looking for, if there is any to be found.

"They must run towards the nearest piece of area terrain, trying to move into it if possible."

This indicates to me that the entire unit must if possible move into the terrain, and not just some of it.

Jangustus wrote:"They must run towards the nearest piece of area terrain, trying to move into it if possible."

This indicates to me that the entire unit must if possible move into the terrain, and not just some of it.

This is backed up by the last sentence in Lurk which says that if the unit is in area terrain is will not move and will stay there.

So is it the unit that must move into the terrain, and for the unit to do that, each and every model in the unit would have to move into and remain in the terrain.

time wizard wrote:

Jangustus wrote:"They must run towards the nearest piece of area terrain, trying to move into it if possible."

This indicates to me that the entire unit must if possible move into the terrain, and not just some of it.

This is backed up by the last sentence in Lurk which says that if the unit is in area terrain is will not move and will stay there.

So is it the unit that must move into the terrain, and for the unit to do that, each and every model in the unit would have to move into and remain in the terrain.

Not true. Reference the Rage thread.

Based on that I'd say that if the unit is getting cover from the area terrain (ie is more than 50% in) they're fine.

I would agree to the 50% rule for determining if they were in terrain and have satisfied their lurk criteria for "move into it if possible."

However it must be area terrain, so if they were simply just behind a wall and gaining cover they would still be forced to move towards a piece of area terrain.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:I would agree to the 50% rule for determining if they were in terrain and have satisfied their lurk criteria for "move into it if possible."

However it must be area terrain, so if they were simply just behind a wall and gaining cover they would still be forced to move towards a piece of area terrain.

No, they can't move. They would be forced to run during the shooting phase if they were behind a wall and not in area terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:I would agree to the 50% rule for determining if they were in terrain and have satisfied their lurk criteria for "move into it if possible."

However it must be area terrain, so if they were simply just behind a wall and gaining cover they would still be forced to move towards a piece of area terrain.

No, they can't move. They would be forced to run during the shooting phase if they were behind a wall and not in area terrain.

I meant to move as in they would need to go towards the area terrain. Not a literal movement phase move, but pick up your models and move them.

Fair enough Just clarifying for others.

rigeld2 wrote:
Not true. Reference the Rage thread.

Based on that I'd say that if the unit is getting cover from the area terrain (ie is more than 50% in) they're fine.

I haven't waded through the 5 pages of the rage thread, but as far as the rule for more than half the unit being in cover, that is very different from the lurk rule.

If more than half a unit is in cover, then the unit is partially in cover, and is deemed to be in cover and may take cover saves. All of this has to do with shooting and cover.

If a unit is forced to lurk, the unit must move into area terrain. The lurk rule doesn't say the majority of the unit, or more than half of the models in the unit, it say the unit "...must instead run towards the nearest piece of area terrain, trying to move into it if possible."

The unit must try to move into the terrain, and again the unit is all of the models in the unit. If moving half the models or just over half the models or 50% or the models would be sufficient, the rule would specifically say so.

time wizard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Not true. Reference the Rage thread.

Based on that I'd say that if the unit is getting cover from the area terrain (ie is more than 50% in) they're fine.

I haven't waded through the 5 pages of the rage thread, but as far as the rule for more than half the unit being in cover, that is very different from the lurk rule.

If more than half a unit is in cover, then the unit is partially in cover, and is deemed to be in cover and may take cover saves. All of this has to do with shooting and cover.

If a unit is forced to lurk, the unit must move into area terrain. The lurk rule doesn't say the majority of the unit, or more than half of the models in the unit, it say the unit "...must instead run towards the nearest piece of area terrain, trying to move into it if possible."

The unit must try to move into the terrain, and again the unit is all of the models in the unit. If moving half the models or just over half the models or 50% or the models would be sufficient, the rule would specifically say so.

The rule does say so, by using the word unit. If it meant every model, it would say every model.

If half of the unit is in area terrain, the unit is in area terrain. I can prove that by showing that I get a cover save.
Just like with Rage - if I move the closest model 6" towards the closest enemy unit I've satisfied the requirement that the unit move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit.

I could see 50% being an acceptable means of determining if they still need to move. Though it doesn't say anything about actual cover the way I have always played it was just attempt to fit them in. I've had a few times were the never fit and I didn't even get cover from it lol.

But near an objective would someone be fine with 75% of the unit outside of the area terrain as they can't fit? Or would they want to see them in it. 50% i could see being a compromise in a close match.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:I could see 50% being an acceptable means of determining if they still need to move. Though it doesn't say anything about actual cover the way I have always played it was just attempt to fit them in. I've had a few times were the never fit and I didn't even get cover from it lol.

But near an objective would someone be fine with 75% of the unit outside of the area terrain as they can't fit? Or would they want to see them in it. 50% i could see being a compromise in a close match.

They'd need to be clumped up around it if 50% can't fit. Distance to an objective doesn't matter.

rigeld2 wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:I could see 50% being an acceptable means of determining if they still need to move. Though it doesn't say anything about actual cover the way I have always played it was just attempt to fit them in. I've had a few times were the never fit and I didn't even get cover from it lol.

But near an objective would someone be fine with 75% of the unit outside of the area terrain as they can't fit? Or would they want to see them in it. 50% i could see being a compromise in a close match.

They'd need to be clumped up around it if 50% can't fit. Distance to an objective doesn't matter.

I agree 100% but if two people were arguing if they had to run or not, I'm simply stating that I could see 50% of the unit in cover being a fair way to say yes I've satisfied lurk. Though the rules say move into it if possible so you could get away with clumping them around a small bit of area terrain, but in a close match I could see that being annoying.

Well - it's the nearest area terrain. That's the only requirement for Lurk. If they don't all fit, they don't all fit.

yep, which is nice because it is damn hard to fit 20 gargoyles into any area terrain O.o

Trance_Phoenix wrote:yep, which is nice because it is damn hard to fit 20 gargoyles into any area terrain O.o

LMFAO yes, that made my day.

IMO, by RAW, once one model is in area terrain, the unit is considered in area terrain, much as having a single model of a unit within 3" of an objective counts as having a unit within 3" of an objective. RAI, I think the intention is for the entirety of the unit or as much as possible to move into area terrain. 50% is a solid compromise, but you should makes sure everyone is cool with that at the begining of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:yep, which is nice because it is damn hard to fit 20 gargoyles into any area terrain O.o

OMG I wish they could pack in like that sometimes.

Rigeld - and I can prove tghat the unit isnt in area terrain, by measuring to a model that isnt in the terrain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rigeld - and I can prove tghat the unit isnt in area terrain, by measuring to a model that isnt in the terrain.

Do I have to roll to move? Yes - I'm in area terrain.
Do I have a cover save? Yes - I'm in area terrain.
Are you measuring to a model whose unit in area terrain? Yes.

Since the rule states unit and the unit is in area terrain, I've satisfied the rule.

You have to roll to move, because a member of the unit is in terrain

You have a cover save because 50% or more of the unit is in terrain - this is not sufficient to say the entire unit is in terrain

I have mewasured to a model not in terrain, so the unit isnt in terrain. When all models are in terrain, the unit IS in terrain no matter what I measure to.

This is like trying to claim that, becuse 50% of the models in your unit have deployed less than 12" from the edge you can deploy the rest beyod this mark. That doesnt work.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have a cover save because 50% or more of the unit is in terrain - this is not sufficient to say the entire unit is in terrain

The entire unit gets a cover save.

I have mewasured to a model not in terrain, so the unit isnt in terrain. When all models are in terrain, the unit IS in terrain no matter what I measure to.

No - you've measured to a model that is not in terrain. Good job. The rule requires the unit to be in terrain.

This is exactly the same as the Rage argument. The unit has satisfied the requirements put upon the unit. Individual models have no requirements.

This is like trying to claim that, becuse 50% of the models in your unit have deployed less than 12" from the edge you can deploy the rest beyod this mark. That doesnt work.

No, it's not like trying to claim that - although the words in 2 out of the 3 deployment scenarios are loose enough for that to happen (one specifies models, one mentions "force" with no definition, one mentions units - but RAI is fairly obvious there).

If I point to a model that isnt in terrain, the unit isnt in terrain. I fI point to a model outside of 12" from the table edge, the unit is not in the deployment zone.

It is for the purposes of a cover save, because a cover save specifies only 50% needs to be in the terrain

It is for the purposes of difficult terrain, because that specifes a model is sufficient

Your argument falls over on these points - Rage is different, because of the rules for measuring between units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I have mewasured to a model not in terrain, so the unit isnt in terrain. When all models are in terrain, the unit IS in terrain no matter what I measure to.

So if a unit has only one model that is within 3" of that objective, and I can measure to a model in that unit that is NOT within 3" of the objective, I can claim that the unit is not holding the objective? Good to know, I'm sure that will go over great at my next game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If I point to a model that isnt in terrain, the unit isnt in terrain.

Cite please.

Really it comes down to there is no rule stating what it means when the unit must run toward the nearest area terrain.
I can roll the die and move one model that distance toward area terrain - as long as it was the closest model I've satisfied the rule.

I fI point to a model outside of 12" from the table edge, the unit is not in the deployment zone.

Again - citation please. The rules treat "units" by the majority of the models in all kinds of places - I don't know of any offhand that treat "unit" as "every model".

It is for the purposes of a cover save, because a cover save specifies only 50% needs to be in the terrain

Correct.

It is for the purposes of difficult terrain, because that specifes a model is sufficient

Correct - so the unit must move at the speed of the slowest model.

Your argument falls over on these points - Rage is different, because of the rules for measuring between units.

I don't think you're seeing my point. Measure from the unit to the area terrain. You'll find that while some models may be outside the terrain, the unit is in the terrain.
(technically I can do it with just one model)

No, *some* of the unit is in terrain. *Some* of the unit isnt in terrain.

Cite? How about English? You dont have a rule satisfying your claim that only the majority needs to be in the terrain for "the unit" to be in terrain - whereas I can simply show it isnt "in terrain", by pointing to the model that isnt there.

I AM seeing your point - entirely. I simply do not agree with it, and given you only have simple analogy to situations where you are *explicitly* told that anything less than the whole unit is fine you can perhqps see why it isnt very persuasive.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, *some* of the unit is in terrain. *Some* of the unit isnt in terrain.

Measure from the unit to the terrain. I'll wait.

Cite? How about English? You dont have a rule satisfying your claim that only the majority needs to be in the terrain for "the unit" to be in terrain - whereas I can simply show it isnt "in terrain", by pointing to the model that isnt there.

There are no rules to cover it. The closest we have is things like the cover save - the entire unit gets an area terrain cover save if half of the unit is in terrain.

I AM seeing your point - entirely. I simply do not agree with it, and given you only have simple analogy to situations where you are *explicitly* told that anything less than the whole unit is fine you can perhqps see why it isnt very persuasive.

So the entire unit must be within 3" of an objective?

BRB page 91 wrote:At the end of the game you control an objective if there is at least one of your scoring units, and no enemy unit (any unit, whether scoring or not), within 3" of it.

That references the unit - by your argument every model in the unit must be within 3" of the objective.

In light of the FAQ about models needing to move completely onto the table, I have to agree with nos on this one. (I take it Nos's position on the matter has changed due to the FAQ as well.)

DeathReaper wrote:In light of the FAQ about models needing to move completely onto the table, I have to agree with nos on this one. (I take it Nos's position on the matter has changed due to the FAQ as well.)

So you agree that the entire unit must be within 3" to capture/contest an objective?

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:In light of the FAQ about models needing to move completely onto the table, I have to agree with nos on this one. (I take it Nos's position on the matter has changed due to the FAQ as well.)

So you agree that the entire unit must be within 3" to capture/contest an objective?

No, because that involves measuring from the unit to the objective, something that is explicit as to the process you take to do so.

If the unit needs to be in terrain then the unit needs to be in terrain, not part of the unit needs to be in terrain, as the is no qualifier that say part of the unit.