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You asked:

puma713 wrote:Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

I answered:

rigeld2 wrote:I'll quote - "after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck" is when CF goes off. iow - before initiative 10.

Everything that can affect the close combat is a part of the close combat. That is what Combat Resolution represents: what happened during the close combat. "The close combat" is not a restrictive term. If it was, it would be defined somewhere. It is a broad term covering anything that is about to happen (ensuing) in regards to assault (close combat).

Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

Okay. So we both know that Gaze and Flame aren't a part of the "assault moves". So, if they're not a part of the assault moves, what must they be a part of?

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

Okay. So we both know that Gaze and Flame aren't a part of the "assault moves". So, if they're not a part of the assault moves, what must they be a part of?

... they're - wait for it

wait for it...

before any blows. Which means - wait for it...
Before the close combat "phase".

Or are you going to argue that there is no "before movement", "beginning of the movement phase", etc.?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

Okay. So we both know that Gaze and Flame aren't a part of the "assault moves". So, if they're not a part of the assault moves, what must they be a part of?

... they're - wait for it

wait for it...

before any blows. Which means - wait for it...
Before the close combat "phase".

So, there is an assumed phase between the assault moves and the close combat? Could you shoot me a page number for that one?

rigeld2 wrote:Or are you going to argue that there is no "before movement", "beginning of the movement phase", etc.?

No, I won't argue that, if you can give me the page number that describes this "time".

puma713 wrote:So, there is an assumed phase between the assault moves and the close combat? Could you shoot me a page number for that one?

Page 31 GK codex, page 62 Tyranid codex.

puma713 wrote:No, I won't argue that, if you can give me the page number that describes this "time".

Reserves, GoI, dozens of psychic powers...

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, there is an assumed phase between the assault moves and the close combat? Could you shoot me a page number for that one?

Page 31 GK codex, page 62 Tyranid codex.

puma713 wrote:No, I won't argue that, if you can give me the page number that describes this "time".

Reserves, GoI, dozens of psychic powers...

No, no, no. In the rulebook. Where the rules that govern the game are. Where the rules for all the other phases are. You see, page 31 of the GK codex doesn't tell me anything about this mystery phase. It doesn't say when it ends, when it begins, how long it is, who can do what, or anything! Must not be outlining the rules for a separate phase that the rulebook just forgot to mention. Page 62 of the Tyranid codex doesn't tell me what to do next - what phase is next? Do I get my 'shooting phase' rules from 'dozens of psychic powers'? Where in the Gate of Infinity rules does it tell me how to conduct assault?

So, once again, if you can give me the page number in the rulebook, please, that describes all these extra phases outside of the phases, so we can all follow the rulebook you're reading?

Or, could it be that none of this is true, and that you simply follow the phases you're given, understanding that "before the start of the Librarian's movement phase" is actually before you move the Librarian or anything else? That "before blows are struck" are still a part of the close combat, and not in some limbo phase that is not explained anywhere?

puma713 wrote:That "before blows are struck" are still a part of the close combat, and not in some limbo phase that is not explained anywhere?

It happens in the assault phase, after moves are complete, before any blows are struck.
I used the word phase in quotes to show it wasn't a phase, and I never - ever - implied that it was.
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

...

So GoI happens... when? During the Movement phase? No. During the Assault phase? No.

When do you roll for reserves?

CF says it goes off "before blows have been struck" so you are saying it goes off after it is supposed to go off? So I can cast Fortune in the shooting phase right?

Sigmatron wrote:CF says it goes off "before blows have been struck" so you are saying it goes off after it is supposed to go off? So I can cast Fortune in the shooting phase right?

Who is that directed to?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

...

So GoI happens... when? During the Movement phase? No. During the Assault phase? No.

When do you roll for reserves?

So, it is more reasonable for you to assume there are mystery phases not outlined in the rulebook than the rules are a part of the phases you're presented? For instance, knowing that "before the Librarian's movement phase" could very well be "before the librarian has moved."

We're not going to agree. In this regard, Riozaki, I would say speak to your TO, or dice it off with your opponent. I doubt it will get FAQed before 6th Ed.

Puma

Sigmatron wrote:CF says it goes off "before blows have been struck" so you are saying it goes off after it is supposed to go off?

??

It goes off "before blows are struck". My only argument is that "before blows are struck" are still very much a part of "the close combat". rigeld2 is saying that they are not a part of the "close combat", even though they are "close combat attacks" and count towards "combat resolution".

is there anything else in the game that counts as "close combat attacks" that are not a part of close combat and count toward combat resolution?

Sigmatron wrote:So I can cast Fortune in the shooting phase right?

Not sure what this has to do with anything.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

...

So GoI happens... when? During the Movement phase? No. During the Assault phase? No.

When do you roll for reserves?

So, it is more reasonable for you to assume there are mystery phases not outlined in the rulebook than the rules are a part of the phases you're presented?

No, absolutely not - and I haven't presented the idea that there are. I apologize for using GoI as an example - it's a bad one.
Bolster Defense - before the game begins
Sanctuary - start of the enemy Assault phase

For instance, knowing that "before the Librarian's movement phase" could very well be "before the librarian has moved."

And Reserves? "before moving any unit" but I don't see anything in the rules saying there's a time before you move units...
The powers give permission to use them at a specific point in time.

We're not going to agree. In this regard, Riozaki, I would say speak to your TO, or dice it off with your opponent. I doubt it will get FAQed before 6th Ed.

I agree - speak to a TO, and I'm sure it won't get FAQed.

HG Does stop Cleansing flame, I think. After reading several times it says "after assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made." I do not agree that it stops it because it is a "close combat attack" but because it stops ANY attacks. Close combat or otherwise. It's all in the wording.

Except that CF is a Psychic power.

Also CF is used after assault moves have been made but before blows are struck.

so despite CF being FAQ'd to being a CC attack, it is used before attacks are made, which is when Hypnotic Gaze is used, they happen at the same time.

So why do people keep mentioning the psychic power l? We have already established that has no effect on this discussion.
So how does gaze that covers any attack not cover that attack?

A) it covers any attack in the ensuing close combat. CF happens before the ensuing close combat.
B) no one has established that it being a psychic power doesn't matter - it does. It's not an attack, the result is a bunch of CC attacks.
C) HG and CF happen simultaneously. They can't affect each other.
D) I just figured I needed a D on this list. Feel free to ignore it.

DeathReaper wrote:
so despite CF being FAQ'd to being a CC attack, it is used before attacks are made, which is when Hypnotic Gaze is used, they happen at the same time.

Actually, Hypnotic Gaze says it is used in the assault phase, before any attacks are made. That would include any attacks going before I10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:A) it covers any attack in the ensuing close combat. CF happens before the ensuing close combat.

In your opinion. That is not backed up by the rules because you have no definition of what "ensuing close combat" means. Since there is no rule outlining this "sub-phase" you keep referring to, it is only logical that we assume there is none and CF happens during "the close combat".

rigeld2 wrote:
B) no one has established that it being a psychic power doesn't matter - it does. It's not an attack, the result is a bunch of CC attacks.

Why? You cast it, and then when you cast it, close combat attacks are made. Hypnotic Gaze doesn't care where the attacks are coming from, simply that there are attacks being made.

rigeld2 wrote:C) HG and CF happen simultaneously. They can't affect each other.

Incorrect. Hypnotic Gaze states that it is used before any attacks are made. This stands to reason that it must be used before the attacks made by Cleansing Flame, otherwise, you're not following the rules of Hypnotic Gaze.

Phase:

Move Assaulting Units
Defenders React
Close Combat
---Hypnotic Gaze (before any attacks are made)
---Cleansing Flame (attacks made before blows are struck)
---I10
---I9
. . .
Determine Assault Results
Check Morale

Doing it simultaneously breaks the rules of Hypnotic Gaze. Doing Hypnotic Gaze first doesn't break the rules of either one.

Casting a Psychic power is not a CC attack.

your point is moot.

they happen at the same time.

DeathReaper wrote:Casting a Psychic power is not a CC attack.

Sure, but the result of the psychic power is cc attacks. Hypnotic Gaze must go off before those attacks do, otherwise you're breaking the rules.

Edit: Also, it doesn't matter if it is a CC attack or not - Hypnotic Gaze goes off before any attacks in the assault phase.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic power that is a close combat attack. The FAQ made this so.

The result of the Psychic power has no bearing on it.

Hypnotic Gaze is used before any attacks are made, Cleansing Flame is casting a Psychic power. Both of which are not disallowed by HG.

This situation proves this: two units with CF are in battle with each other. which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

They both would have to be able to use it even though CF says it is used before any blows have been struck, just like Hypnotic gaze...

The Psychic power and Hypnotic Gaze both are used at the same time. apply the effects and move on to the assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:The result of the Psychic power has no bearing on it.

Hypnotic Gaze is used before any attacks are made, Cleansing Flame is casting a Psychic power. Both of which are not disallowed by HG.

This situation proves this: two units with CF are in battle with each other. which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

They both would have to be able to use it even though CF says it is used before any blows have been struck, just like Hypnotic gaze...

I disagree. If you use Hypnotic Gaze at the same time as Cleansing Flame, then Hypnotic Gaze has not been used before any attacks are made. It was used at the same time as other attacks were made. Simultaneous =/= before.

You keep saying that Cleansing Flame is merely "casting a psychic power". That is incorrect. It is a psychic power that is a close combat attack. Just like Paroxysm is a shooting attack. Just like Mind War is a shooting attack. They are not mutually exclusive.

And Cleansing Flame versus Cleansing Flame has no bearing. The two powers are not worded the same. One says before blows are struck (Hypnotic Gaze is not a "blow being struck), the other says before any attacks are made (Cleansing Flame is an attack).



So, what you're saying is that Cleansing Flame is not an attack? Even though the FAQ says it is?

The FAQ can only be ruling on shooting vs CC for the purposes of cover saves - as the power is not a PSA it cannot be a shooting attack.
Edit: meaning using the power is not an attack - resolving the power causes wounds considered to be from CC attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:The FAQ can only be ruling on shooting vs CC for the purposes of cover saves - as the power is not a PSA it cannot be a shooting attack.
Edit: meaning using the power is not an attack - resolving the power causes wounds considered to be from CC attacks.

Yeah, we can put all sorts of RAI meaning into it. The simple fact is that it says that it is a close combat attack. If it is only ruling for certain reasons, then they needed to have added something about cover saves or what have you. They simply said that it is a close combat attack. No caveats, no exceptions.

The question was very simple: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close combat attack?

No matter how that is answered, it is an attack of some sort, which Hypnotic Gaze still negates.

OK so we now have Schrödinger's Cleansing Flame. A "close combat attack" used before close combat attacks but (supposedly) hs to happen at the same time as close combat attacks?

That ones a stretch Happy.

So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

DeathReaper wrote:So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

What does this have to do with Hypnotic Gaze versus Cleansing Flame? You're avoiding the issue. Hypnotic Gaze and Cleansing Flame don't have the same wording, so it does us no good to compare Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. Cleansing Flame is an attack, it was defined as such in the Grey Knights FAQ. That is plain and simple.

If it is an attack, then Hypnotic Gaze goes off before it. It doesn't even matter what kind of attack.