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Personally, I see Puma713's point as having a firmer and more logical base to stand on in this case.

I play neither Tyranids or Grey Knights, so I've no reason to be biased here.

From what I have read, Hypnotic Gaze would take precedence here by virtue of being used before any attacks are made without regards to initiative.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

What does this have to do Hypnotic Gaze versus Cleansing Flame? You're avoiding the issue. Hypnotic Gaze and Cleansing Flame don't have the same wording, so it does us no good to compare Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. Cleansing Flame is an attack, it was defined as such in the Grey Knights FAQ. That is plain and simple.

If it is an attack, then Hypnotic Gaze goes off before it. It doesn't even matter what kind of attack.

This has everything to do with it. Please answer the question.

They have the same wording They both use "after (Any) assault moves", except CF uses the wording "before any blows are struck" and HG uses the wording "before any attacks are made."

This wording means the same thing. any blows are struck = any attacks are made

Blows = attacks, unless you think they mean something different, if you do then I see the issue.

So they are both used after assault moves, but before any attacks are made.

If you say that HG goes off before CF, then how do you handle CF Vs. CF?

CF is used after assault moves, but before any attacks are made.

So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

What does this have to do Hypnotic Gaze versus Cleansing Flame? You're avoiding the issue. Hypnotic Gaze and Cleansing Flame don't have the same wording, so it does us no good to compare Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. Cleansing Flame is an attack, it was defined as such in the Grey Knights FAQ. That is plain and simple.

If it is an attack, then Hypnotic Gaze goes off before it. It doesn't even matter what kind of attack.

This has everything to do with it. Please answer the question.

They have the same wording They both use "after (Any) assault moves", except CF uses the wording "before any blows are struck" and HG uses the wording "before any attacks are made."

Okay. Is Hypnotic Gaze a "blow being struck"? No, it is not.

Is Cleansing Flame an attack being made? Yes it is.

See the difference? If Hypnotic Gaze were an attack, then you'd have a point - the two would work almost identically. That is why you're hung up on Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. That is two attacks going off at once. That is not the case here. Hypnotic Gaze is a power that is used before any attacks are made. Cleansing Flame is an attack. Therefore, Hypnotic Gaze must be used before it. Cleansing Flame's wording has no bearing on Hypnotic Gaze, since it is not a "blow being struck" anyway.

I won't address the rest, since it is irrelevant.

You're trying to equate two things identically, when they are quite simply not identical.

So you are not going to answer the question?

Cleansing flame is not an attack being made, it is a Psychic power being cast.

See the difference?

How would you handle this situation:

Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame? (Or do they both get to cast it).

Why?

If you say that HG goes off before CF, then how do you handle CF Vs. CF?

DeathReaper wrote:So you are not going to answer the question?

Cleansing flame is not an attack being made, it is a Psychic power being cast.

I must assume that you're trolling now. Or just playing Devil's Advocate. It is clearly an attack. The FAQ even says it is. Why do you insist on assuming that it cannot be a psychic power -and- an attack? It is both at the same time. But, to help you out:




I am refusing to answer your CF vs. CF because it has no bearing whatsoever on the argument.


One is conditional that it is before ANY ATTACK. The other is conditional that it is before blows are struck.

This makes it really easy. If Cleansing Flame goes off at the same time or before Hypnotic Gaze, then you've already broken Hypnotic Gaze's condition. If Hypnotic Gaze goes before Cleansing Flame, no conditions are broken.

Once again: Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack. You keep likening it to Cleansing Flame, which is an attack.

Really, you have no leg to stand on here, which is why I assume I'm getting trolled.

Cleansing Flame has to go off before blows are struck (attacks made). By your interpretation, you cannot Cleansing Flame more than once per assault phase because attacks have now been made.

That's his point.

puma713 wrote:I am refusing to answer your CF vs. CF because it has no bearing whatsoever on the argument.

you refuse to answer it because it would undermine your entire argument.

That is why your argument is incorrect.

Thanks for the discussion.

rigeld2 wrote:Cleansing Flame has to go off before blows are struck (attacks made). By your interpretation, you cannot Cleansing Flame more than once per assault phase because attacks have now been made.

That's his point.

Again, what does that have to do with Hynotic Gaze, which is not an attack? CF vs. CF has no bearing whatsoever, because we're not talking about an attack versus an attack. We're talking about a power versus an attack.

No, you're talking about a power vs a power.

If CF itself is an attack, there can only ever be one cast per assault phase.

If CF is not an attack, HG doesn't stop it.

That's what it comes down to. You are asserting the former, ignoring the other implications this has. This is why your argument fails.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:I am refusing to answer your CF vs. CF because it has no bearing whatsoever on the argument.

you refuse to answer it because it would undermine your entire argument.

Um, no. I am refusing to answer it, because it is just as relevant as you asking me "What is the coherency measurement for squadrons?" It has nothing to do with the argument.

If Hypnotic Gaze were an attack, then yes, your question would be relevant. Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack, it is not a "blow being struck". So, tell me how this relates to CF vs. CF? Explan that to me and I will answer your question.

DeathReaper wrote:That is why your argument is incorrect.

Thanks for the discussion.

Too funny. You have no basis for an argument - so you plug your ears. Ignorance is bliss, eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:No, you're talking about a power vs a power.

If CF itself is an attack, there can only ever be one cast per assault phase.

We know that it is an attack. I posted a picture of the FAQ above. Unless you're saying that FAQs don't count now? It's not my fault that GW can't write rules plainly or clearly. No matter the implications of CF vs. CF, it is an attack. Even if it means it breaks Cleansing Flame. Rage is broken, but we work around that don't we?

So, what you two are saying, is that Cleansing Flame is not an attack, even though the FAQ writes plainly that it is.

I'm not sure we have anything else to talk about.

CF is used before any blows are struck. I think we can al agree that "blows" are the same as "attacks". This means if my Purifiers assault your Purifiers, and I pass my CF psychic test, blows have not been struck. Correct? That means you would not be able to use your CF, since it has to be used before any blows are dealt. That is what the claim is on your understanding of the rule.

Happyjew wrote:CF is used before any blows are struck. I think we can al agree that "blows" are the same as "attacks". This means if my Purifiers assault your Purifiers, and I pass my CF psychic test, blows have not been struck. Correct? That means you would not be able to use your CF, since it has to be used before any blows are dealt. That is what the claim is on your understanding of the rule.

And hence why CF vs. CF has no bearing. Is Hypnotic Gaze an attack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote: I think we can al agree that "blows" are the same as "attacks".

Blows could mean attacks, yes. It could also mean "initiative-step-attacks". We don't know since "blows" isn't defined.

The results of CF (ie the wounds) are an attack. Casting the power itself is not.

You have no basis for claiming a shouting match must ensue to see who casts a power first. And that's what you're asserting - if one must come before the other, and they both can be declared at the same time, if the GK player blurts out "CF!" first, HG cannot be cast.

Powers that have a simultaneous trigger go off simultaneously.

rigeld2 wrote:The results of CF (ie the wounds) are an attack. Casting the power itself is not.

You have no basis for claiming a shouting match must ensue to see who casts a power first. And that's what you're asserting - if one must come before the other, and they both can be declared at the same time, if the GK player blurts out "CF!" first, HG cannot be cast.

Powers that have a simultaneous trigger go off simultaneously.

And the flaw of the entire argument rears its head.

Listen carefully:

Cleansing Flame has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

Hypnotic Gaze has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

With me so far?

Cleansing Flame is an attack - no matter how it is produced - weapon, psychic power, fist, act of God - it is an attack. To say that it is not is to blatantly ignore the Grey Knight FAQ.

Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack.

Still with me?

Therefore, using Cleansing Flame at the same time or before Hypnotic Gaze breaks the rules of Hypnotic Gaze. Using Hypnotic Gaze at the same time or before Cleansing Flame breaks no rules, as it is not a "blow being struck".

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The results of CF (ie the wounds) are an attack. Casting the power itself is not.

You have no basis for claiming a shouting match must ensue to see who casts a power first. And that's what you're asserting - if one must come before the other, and they both can be declared at the same time, if the GK player blurts out "CF!" first, HG cannot be cast.

Powers that have a simultaneous trigger go off simultaneously.

And the flaw of the entire argument rears its head.

Listen carefully:

Cleansing Flame has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

Hypnotic Gaze has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

With me so far?

Cleansing Flame is an attack - no matter how it is produced - weapon, psychic power, fist, act of God - it is an attack. To say that it is not is to blatantly ignore the Grey Knight FAQ.

Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack.

Still with me?

Therefore, using Cleansing Flame at the same time or before Hypnotic Gaze breaks the rules of Hypnotic Gaze. Using Hypnotic Gaze at the same time or before Cleansing Flame breaks no rules, as it is not a "blow being struck".

rigeld2 wrote:No, you're talking about a power vs a power.

If CF itself is an attack, there can only ever be one cast per assault phase.

If CF is not an attack, HG doesn't stop it.

That's what it comes down to. You are asserting the former, ignoring the other implications this has. This is why your argument fails.

In case you missed it. You're advocating a race condition where one is not required in the rules.

Oh, and Marsden, both rigeld and I are Tyranid players, and we agree that HG does not stop CF.

rigeld2 wrote:
In case you missed it. You're advocating a race condition where one is not required in the rules.

*sighs* No, I'm not.

Player 1:I am assaulting your Genestealers with Crowe. I am going to use the defensive stance. You pile in.
Player 2 shuffles his genestealers around Crowe.
Player 1:Alright. Cleansing Flame.
Player 2: Before you do that, I need to cast Hypnotic Gaze
Player 1:Why?
Player 2:Because it says it goes off before all attacks.
Player 1:Well so does Cleansing Flame.
Player 2:Yeah, but Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack, so Cleansing Flame has no permission to go first.

There is no frantic "race" that you keep trying to rest your argument on. Honestly, my argument hasn't changed at all. It is the two of you who keep coming back with different angles, trying to rationalize why CF isn't an attack, or why they must go at the same time, or why there would be a race to cast first.

Puma - and, again, you are asserting primacy in HG (in HG vs CF), yet this is a shouting match.

If I yell "CF!" and cast it first, you cannot then cast HG - by your own admission, it breaks rules to do so.

If the powers go off and resolve simultaneously, there is no race to be first, and both powers can be resolved perfectly fine - because they are held separately until they have resolved, HG is not violated and neither is CF

Both are cast before any blows aka attacks that round. Both have no primacy over eachother, so they go at the same time.

CF the power is not a close combat attack - it results in CC attacks, but casting the power is not itself a CC attack. So you cast the power at the same time as HG

If player 2 declares CF, HG cannot be declared.
There's no permission for you to pre-empt someone's action.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Puma - and, again, you are asserting primacy in HG (in HG vs CF), yet this is a shouting match.

If I yell "CF!" first, you cannot then cast HG - by your own admission, it breaks rules to do so.

If it breaks the rules to do so, then you have to act in accordance with the rules. What you're saying is if you yell "CF!", then all of a sudden, you're allowed to break the rules. By the rules, you cannot cast Cleansing Flame first, if the other player decides he wants to use Hypnotic Gaze. You have to allow the other player to use it, otherwise you have broken the rules.

To stick your tongue out and say "Nyah! Nyah! I said it first!" doesn't matter. You have broken the condition of Hypnotic Gaze if you are allowed to go at the same time or before.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If the powers go off and resolve simultaneously, there is no race to be first, and both powers can be resolved perfectly fine - because they are held separately until they have resolved

Okay, so you can make close combat attacks at the same time you're using something that must go off before close combat attacks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:HG is not violated and neither is CF

Incorrect. HG is violated, CF is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:If player 2 declares CF, HG cannot be declared.
There's no permission for you to pre-empt someone's action.

The permission is right there in HG. To not allow HG breaks a rule. To allow HG breaks no rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
CF the power is not a close combat attack - it results in CC attacks, but casting the power is not itself a CC attack.

Can you show me where it says that here?:

Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

No, I'm not. HG must be cast before attacks, but it's optional. If you forget to cast it and we start rolling attacks, you can't go back and cast it.

Isnt HG only affect one model in BtB contact?...so if the Knight of Flame in a Purifier squad is not in contact then you could not stop it...at the same time its a psychic ability that tgts the model, so the nid would lose -1 to Ld right?

DK wrote:Isnt HG only affect one model in BtB contact?...so if the Knight of Flame in a Purifier squad is not in contact then you could not stop it...at the same time its a psychic ability that tgts the model, so the nid would lose -1 to Ld right?

Read the given example - Crowe.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

No, I'm not. HG must be cast before attacks, but it's optional. If you forget to cast it and we start rolling attacks, you can't go back and cast it.

I didn't "forget". You simply raced ahead and started rolling. So, what you're saying is, resort to being TFG to prove your point?

Simply amazing.

I'm done. We're both entrenched. As I said earlier, for those that aren't convinced by the waffling of the opposition in this thread, ask your TO or dice off with your opponent.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

No, I'm not. HG must be cast before attacks, but it's optional. If you forget to cast it and we start rolling attacks, you can't go back and cast it.

I didn't "forget". You simply raced ahead and started rolling. So, what you're saying is, resort to being TFG to prove your point?

Simply amazing.

I'm done. We're both entrenched. As I said earlier, for those that aren't convinced by the waffling of the opposition in this thread, ask your TO or dice off with your opponent.

Nice accusation.
You still haven't showed how a race is not required using your interpretation.
You're just saying that it's polite to not have a race.

True or not, that's irrelevant. You can't use politeness in a RAW discussion.

So, by that logic, if I'm playing against Grey Knights and start my shooting phase and roll dice before my opponent gets to say he wants to cast shrouding, then he's not allowed to do so? No, that's not how it works. If you try to blurt out Cleansing Flame, I say, "before you do that, I get to cast my Hypnotic Gaze."

No, really, RAW that's how it works.
It being a dick move, and how people normally play it is irrelevan when discussin RAW. puma has asserted that HG must be allowed to happen before CF using RAW. There is no basis for that assertion.

HIWPI HG doesn't stop CF, and I'd allow someone to cast CF after we started the initiative count.

Very well, then. RAW, Hypnotic Gaze goes before Cleansing Flame and prevents it from working.